jaunty75

This had me rolling on the floor laughing. I see the Pakleds are back and as strong as ever.

First off, timing is measured in degrees, as in how many degrees as measured on a 360 degree circle before or after the piston is at the very top of its stroke does the spark plug fire. Typical timing settings are something 8 or 10 or 12 degrees before top dead center, often stated as "before TDC." It means that the spark plug fires a moment or two before the piston is actually at the top of the power stroke.

The timing marks on an engine typically range from something like -4 degrees to +12 degrees. There's no scale that goes up to anything like 60 degrees. Maybe something else on your engine is set to 60-something, but it certainly couldn't be the timing.

Dwell is also measured in degrees and is typically set at something like 30. I think the dwell setting could be misadjusted by as much as 30 degrees so a reading on a dwell meter could be 60 degrees. If your dwell setting was at 60 when it should be 30, the engine would probably still run, but it would not run well.

oldcutlass

Actually the timing can be measured that far with a dial back timing light, I think mine goes to 120. What I don't understand is why he didn't loosen the distributor and turn it back to where it will start if the firing order is correct?

Miles71

I wish I had more time with the Car. My schedule only allowed about 90 minutes. Then the mosquitoes started a feeding frenzy and I had to stop.
The good news is, I could hear and smell fuel going into the 2BBL carburetor.

I attached a battery charger to the car during the testing. It took 15 minutes to clean the balancer to find the timing mark under layers of paint and dirt and cleaning the timing card.
The mark was cleaned and highlighted with chalk.
The timing light was connected to the #1 cylinder, Driver Side, closest to the radiator.

After a few spins of the engine, I found the timing mark.
The Mark was way beyond TDC. My guess is it was about 30-40 degrees beyond Zero mark on the timing card.
If you were to look at the balancer using the clock as a reference, the Mark was at about 2:45. It was almost out of visual range.
A normal clock position would be approximately 1:00 to 1:30.

I did not have time to recheck All of the cables from the distributor. I only quickly checked the location of the #1 cable, it looked about right.
I also did not have time to check the Rotor cap alignment with the Balancer timing mark.

The water is the radiator was rated for +10 F. Last winter was one of the coldest on record for Lowell MA.
Temperature dipped to “minus 8 F” for several days. So far, the radiator is still holding liquid.

Suburban is on a very tight budget. So I am keeping my suggestions to an absolute minimum.
Suggested Punch list:
Replace timing gear set (I gave her the part number for my Eddlbrock set)
Replace Water pump (MAW)
Replace Fuel pump (MAW)
Replace Fuel Filter
Replace all 5 water hoses (MAW)
Replace the Thermostat (180 degree, MAW)
Replace two Rubber Fuel lines (Fuel pump side and fuel tank side MAW)
Replace Gaskets as needed
Refill radiator with a 50/50 mixture.
Change the oil.

Did I miss anything?
Engine is a stock 1972, 350 2BBL, No Air conditioning, No Power options, just bare bones Convertible.
(MAW = Might As Well)

Miles71

Dear Jaunty75:

I did tell Suburban I thought the Timing was off by about 60 degrees after TDC.
That was while I was swatting mosquitoes and trying to pack my car.
Later I looked at my car and came up with values that may be a bit closer, The Timing is currently 30-40 degree After TDC (that’s my best guess).

The engine does not attempt to fire!

No coughing, No spitting, No Backfiring, No nothing.

“It’s Dead Jim”!

I did have a Dwell meter with me, but did not have time to take that measurement.
There is still a chance that the distributor cables may be all messed and or the distributor is twisted way off.
I ran as many tests as I could with the time and tools available.

Suburban is being a good sport at the ribbing from this forum to this Newbie and putting up with my last minute schedule changes.

The “Pakleds” comment may be humorous, but is miss placed when trying to encourage a Newbie to be an active member of this forum.
Comments like that may discourage Newbie’s from asking questions and the Newbie’s may just resort to calling the junk yard to solve the solution.

Do I dare ask a simple question?

Is the Timing-Light values read while running on Starter-Motor only, just as accurate as an running engine at 700 RPM?

Are Dwell Meter reading while running on the Starter-Motor only, just as accurate as an running engine at 700 RPM?

Miles71

Side note about Antifreeze: Do not use Premixed 50/50.

The Cutlass cooling system holds 16 quarts (4 gallons).
When you drain the radiator (via plug or remove a hose), the engine will still hold approximately 1 gallon of liquid!
Let’s assume you just flushed the system with pure water several times to get out most of the crud and old liquid.
This will leave 1 full gallon of pure water in the engine block.
If you add in 3 Gallons of 50/50 diluted antifreeze with the existing 1 gallon of water in your block you will have a radio of 37.50 % Antifreeze, or approximately 6 Quarts of Antifreeze and 10 quarts of pure water.
This will give you protection to “Minus 7 F” and a boiling point of approximately 240 F.

For a Cutlass you must use pure concentrate antifreeze to archive the 50% final mixture ratio.
After a flush, pour in 2 gallons of Pure Non concentrated Antifreeze.
The Test the Mixture (you will still be 1 gallon shy of a full load).
Then add 1 quart of pure water and test the mixture.
Add more Water or Antifreeze, one quart at a time until you are at the full mark.
Check mixture after each quart
Goal is 50%
This will provide protection to approximately Freeze -34F and boiling 260F

Do not go over 50%.
The freezing point will begin to drop as you go above 50% Glycol.
The Glycol liquid also does not conduct heat as well as water.
More than 50% may make your engine run hotter (Rumors).

gs72

If it is a stocker, just use a cloyes single row steel timing chain set. They are like 20 bucks. That will save a little money and a 2bbl stock engine will not benefit from an expensive set of gears.

oldcutlass

Imho, you have not proven the timing chain is actually bad. If its the original its a good assumption. The timing being off could be related to a worn set of points and the dwell being way off, either way it can be fixed with an adjustment. The timing during cranking is very close to what it would be at 700 rpm.

MDchanic

"Do I dare to eat a peach?"



Yes and Yes.

The dwell angle of a points distributor does not change with engine speed (the dwell angle of most computerized systems, such as Pertronix or Crane, does).
The meter may not be perfectly accurate when cranking, depending on its circuitry, but it will certainly get you very close, and you can double check with the engine running.

If setting the timing as per factory specs, you are supposed to set it at a certain RPM (usually 1,100), but if you are just getting it close, a measurement at cranking speed will absolutely get you there.
The only proper measurement is at about 3,000 RPM anyway.

I am so close to being close to there, just not close enough - It's probably a 2 hour drive for me, and I just haven't had that amount of free time (ie: a full 12 hour day to burn) lately.

- Eric

Suburban0102@juno.com

no I am not a pakled. Thanks for the suggestion. Update from shop is that the timing seems fine. And that's all that he can tell me right now. He will tell me more tomm...

Suburban0102@juno.com

The Culprit was the Timing Chain.....broken. Timing severly off, upside down. Nylon is gone.....

MDchanic

Upside down?

- Eric

oldcutlass

I think they meant 180 out. Ok, looks like your on the right track.

MDchanic

180° out just means the spark plug wires were hooked up wrong.

Still mystified.

- Eric

oldcutlass

It also makes the timing mark show up on the bottom of the balancer, upside down.

MDchanic

Oh, brother...

Suburban0102@juno.com

I don't have athe details in front of me of what the mechanic said. He definitely did say the term upside down regarding the Timing. he also said that it wa way way off. And he changed the spark plugs. He felt it was a good idea and they were cheap enough. I do have pictures of the timing chain and gears, but it won't let me post them here right now. And the nylon piece on the timing was completly missing n I guess it is in the oil pan now.... He said not to worry because of the screen. But I have also heard otherwise.....

oldcutlass

The timing chain issue is normal wear and very common for these old cars. They usually last around 60-100k miles. I do agree with your mechanic that a lot of the plastic will be stopped by the screen. I don't however agree that its a non issue as the parts the bits tend to clog the screen and may lead to oil flow issues. We like to see the pan dropped and the screen cleaned out. Don't worry about the pictures, we've all seen a worn out original timing set. Glad your moving in the right direction.

Fun71

And that is totally fine if you live someplace as I do where the lowest winter temperature is in the mid-20s.

I deliberately run ~25-30% ethylene glycol in order to take advantage of the better heat transfer capability of water over glycol to assist with summertime cooling. A 50% mix increases the boiling point only about 10 degrees and I have no need for freeze protection down to some horribly frigid temperature that no human (or automobile) should ever be subjected to.

Miles71

Toothless:

Here are a few pictures from Suburban’s 72 Cutlass convertibles cam-shaft timing gear.
Not one single nylon tooth.
I guess that explains why the timing light was way off.

According to Suburban’s description, the shop did not remove the oil pan.
This means there is a full cup of cracked nylon parts sloshing around the oil pan.
I do not want to give her bad news, but I think she needs to go back to a shop (not necessarily the original shop) and have the oil pan removed and cleaned.

Can she drive the car in its current condition?
Should she bother with an oil change or just go straight for an Oil Pan cleaning?

Now that the engine is running, I will double check the overall engine condition (Timing, Dwell, Vacuum, Carburetor, Antifreeze and leaks) as time permits.

MDchanic

Not really. I'm not 100% certain of my recollection, but I did calculate it out once (and posted it here), and I believe that each tooth of the cam gear equals 22 degrees of crank timing, so if the nylon were gone, but the chain hadn't jumped, the timing would be off no more than about 6 or 7 degrees.

- Eric

oldcutlass

If the oil pressure is good it's not a big issue. I just like to make sure the screen is clear. The plastic generally does not come off all at once but over time. So chances are some of it was drained of over time. The bigger pieces will stay on the bottom of the pan and the small pieces get sucked up into the screen and wedge in between the screen and the gap in the metal hood that covers about a 1/3 of the pickup.

Miles71

I will check the functionality of her existing Oil pressure light.
If the light works and it goes "OFF" at all times while driving, she is OK to drive?
And if the light comes "ON" at any time while driving, Stop and get the oil pan cleaned.

oldcutlass

I usually install an inexpensive mechanical gauge setup. Volts, temp, and oil pressure. I don't rely on the idiot lights because if they come on its usually too late. They are cheap and installation is very easy.

MDchanic

If the nylon teeth are causing a flow restriction, which is unlikely), the oil pressure will drop first at high RPMs, then, IF it gets more clogged (teeth pack in closer), it will occur at progressively lower RPMs.

If she never drives at high RPMs, she will never see a problem, even if the screen is blocked.

- Eric

Suburban0102@juno.com

Oh she drives at high Rpm's.....

MDchanic

In which case, she should really drop the oil pan, then.

Of course, it's almost the same amount of effort to drop the pan with the engine in place as it is to pull the engine.

And there are so many more things you can do once the engine is out.

In fact, once it's out, you Might As Well...

- Eric

WCH72

Suburban, would be interested in discovering what you found out. I have a 1972 Cutlass, 350 hardtop. I put a new battery in, there is plenty of juice, but cranks once and then nothing. No clicking, just nothing. I've check the cable from the battery to the starter. I'm not sure if it is an ignition issue or a new starter needed.

oldcutlass

Your issue is completely different, start a new thread.