Greg Rogers

Wife and I are going to Gettysburg for the nats. I was reading thru the new Journey with Olds and the article about judging at the event. I was surprised at the deductions you will get if you don't have "Spirit Items" or original Oldsmobile publications, fire extinguisher, etc. Isn't the idea to evaluate how good the car is? Not how many old trinkets you can over pay for on ebay? I can understand the fire extinguisher as it is a safety item and as a way to encourage all to bring one, but I don't get the extra items. I personally don't really care to even have my car judged as it has variations and is a driver. The first Nationals we went to in Dearborn I didn't have the car judged, The 2nd one we went to in Springfield we did have it judged since it was sitting there anyway and that's what I guess that's what we'll do in Gettysburg. I have seen many bill boards around show cars explaining things about the times the car was produced and how it was promoted, etc. It seems like your car is getting awarded for how good it will please the spectators not the caliber of the car. What you think???

Tedd Thompson

I think you need to get a fire extinguisher, a few JWO magazines, a shop manual or two and stop worrying about it. It's not that big of a deal and plus you will see some interesting unique items in other peoples cars.

Just remember it's their game and their rules and everyone plays by them.It's all in the spirit of the show.

442Harv

I do agree with you, about the judging the car the most important. I have never judged a Nat meet, but have done a lot of our local chapter, with uses the same judging sheet.Not sure this is the real reason, but have judged cars that came down to they were the same judging numbers. The spirit items some times help brake a tie.Not probably that happens much, but that comes into play some times. I judged a nice car many years ago, and the guy never been to judged show of this type. He by far, had the nicest car in his class, but had no items, and no fire extinguisher. I felt bad having to deduct the points.

Run to Rund

Most OCA judges do a preview survey of the cars they will be judging, and give owners the chance to collect spirit items if they didn't know or forgot. Some owners forget to fill out the header and sign the judging sheet; again, the judge will try to find the owner. These point deductions have been part of the rules for decades and as noted above most owners bring some interesting display items, often arrayed in the trunk.

Koda

It's their game, and we don't have to play. I reviewed the 1000 point judging sheet, and it is very detailed. I find the spirit items to be silly, as it has nothing to do with the car and seems a cheap way of guaranteeing merchandise sales, but, it's not my call.

I don't feel badly enough to not do it, were I to attend the show and have a car judged, so I would do what I needed to satisfy the situation. I suppose I would disagree with the correct white wall tires criterion if I had to pick an item to contest, "correct original, or reproduction original, or modern equivalent in good condition and clean" would be better, in my opinion.

mrolds69

As an owner and builder of 2 senior preservation cars, let me say this...rules are rules, and if you want to score high, you have to follow them. The spirit stuff is very easy, they are not asking you to bring a neon olds dealer sign. Surely everybody has a hat, tee, chassis manual, key chain, JWO or something to throw in their trunk. It's a much worse thing if you don't know about it and get docked. A fire extinguisher is common sense, all the major clubs require it. It's a one time 30.00 investment, and...it protects your car. If you are going to be judged, read the manual. As a judge, I can tell you there are so many things you can do for little or no $ that will raise your score. Things like non-cogged belts, correct wires, rad cap, neatness under the hood, vacuuming your car...lots of small things that can prevent a loss of points. In my mind, the real difference is in the upper levels, that costs a lot of $ and points. Things like correct bias ply tires, T3's, correct battery...there's a LOT of points in that stuff, but they are expensive to buy. When I build cars, I build them to score high. If you want radials, halogens, an Optima battery, gauges under the dash, and a CD player, that's fine. But...you are not going to make the cut for 1st, probably not going to make the cut for 2'nd, that's just the way it is. At least in the stock classes. Probably the best thing you could do is to ask somebody who has a nice car like yours, or a judge, at the show to look over your car for you. If the person is nice, they can help you and possibly fix some things before it's judged. I can remember going to Sturbridge, and somebody I personally knew thought the had the world's best 1970 W-30. I pointed out like 6-8 things the day before it was judged, very simple things that could have been done, most for no money, maybe walk over to the Fusick truck for a decal or 2. Example? the headrest locks were 180 degrees off. I said...give me a screwdriver and I'll fix them for you. Guy says, no...it was restored by XXX so it has to be right. Whatever...next day the guy was crying because no 1st place the judges hammered him for everything I said. I didn't judge that class, either.

35tac

I don't know why you wouldn't have the proper service manual, assembly manual if one has been printed, model sales flyer, Fisher body manual and a fire extinguisher to begin with. Other than the extinguisher for your protection the manuals help take care of the car.
Thanks
Wayne

WTHIRTY1

Does the OCA judging check numbers on block, trans, correct finishes, and other critical components?

mrolds69

Depends who's judging. I would say, no...they are not going to check for matching numbers on your engine or trans. They will look to make sure you have the right block, F G B...whatever. They may or may not check your heads. Correct finishes...yeah...they are going to look at that. I'm not sure what you mean, but if your firewall or hood hinges are body color, if your engine pulleys are chrome or engine color, if your engine is black and it should be blue, your core support is shiny gloss black, they will dock you.

rcorrigan5

First of all, some of the "trinkets" out there available to get the points during judging are a waste of money, in my opinion. The things that are worth it to me have been mentioned - Chassis Service Manual, Fisher Body Manual, Assembly/Product Information Manual, owner's manual, and so forth. They are worth points during judging and are also very useful at home.

Second, with regards to checking numbers, I don't believe they do that as of yet (at least that was my experience at the 2011 OCA Nationals) but I suspect it will eventually come to that. There was no removal of the air cleaner to check the carburetor number, nothing about the water pump being original or aftermarket, or even the number on the alternator (which is about the easiest of all the numbers to check), which made that aspect of judging much easier on everyone. The only problem I had - one of the judges tried to say that a '68 4-4-2 came only with red stripe tires with either steel wheels and poverty caps, or super stock wheels. I had to break out the original window sticker for my car to show that, yes indeed, it did come from the assembly plant with steel wheels, but also with white stripe tires and the wire wheel cover option.

All-in-all, I was OK with how the judges conducted themselves. As well, it's an assignment I would not want to tackle. The judges have a difficult job, trying to effectively judge a car, as well as keep the peace with the owner!

Randy C.

rocketraider

The spirit items and supportive literature deduction is a sore spot with me since at one time they were BONUS points and not deductions. The change was made in early 2000s to my best knowledge with little fanfare.

They should STILL be bonus points as they have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the car being judged. But I can never get a response from Mike Pruitt when I contact him about it.

I've grown to have some serious misgivings about the OCA judging process because a lot of the people judging know little to nothing about the classes and/or cars they're judging. I've proposed judges' training on specific years and carlines; Jerry Wilson is receptive to it but putting it together is a different story.

With all this in mind, take the car, have it judged, meet some great people and make new friends, and enjoy Gettysburg. Due to a couple of unanticipated big expenses, I'm gonna pass on the show this year. I had orig planned to hit the show, spend some time on the Battlefield in areas my ancestors fought, and then travel to Elmira NY to find my great-great-grandpa's grave in Woodlawn Cemetery. He died as a Confederate Elmira POW 2 weeks after surrender at Appomattox.

But, when tractors break and well pumps fail, one has to reconsider one's vacation plans.

rocketraider

I've also grown leery of leaving high-dollar spirit items in the car if I'm not going to be around it. I always thought Oldsmobile people were above such stuff, but I know several people who've had items stolen out of the car while it was on the showfield. Easily replaced inexpensive things are one thing, but when stuff like 1970 C&F books, Hurst/Olds Pace Car items etc go missing, that's a common SOB sharing the field with you.

1970cs

As a master judge, I would expect to see manuals, i.e. owners, service and possible chassis. Three OCA items. Can be as simple as three OCA stickers or even JWO's work too. Anything with Oldsmobile will work as a spirit item.

I don't get picky as long as we count 6 items over all.

This what I use again, is not a guide line! Two OCA stickers 1 on the fire extinguisher and one on my rear drivers window. One JWO.

Spirit items one Oldsmobile flag in the trunk with the JWO, owners manual and the original window sticker sitting on top of the flag.

As an extra or just in case somebodies eyes are not working two baseball hats on the package tray with model on one and Oldsmobile on the other.

I even went so far as to paint the extinguisher the same color as the car.

When judging others, my group does not get carried away with point deductions a 1 to 3 points typical for each of the segments on the judging sheet. If totally blatant, like wrong engine for the car/year maybe 25 for that.

I feel, and most judges are not here to bust any ones chops. Remember that the car is judged against the sheet.

Some of the judges are not getting the message about rust on exhaust pieces. I have been hit 3 times since the rule changed!

Pat

Charlie Jones

Here is the thing about being a judge .
There may be a field of 40 or more REALLY nice cars.
And you are asked to pick the very best one .
It often comes down to "picky little things " that separate first from second etc.

Koda

Picky little things on the car is ok. Spirit items are not part of the car, and neither, arguably, are chassis service manuals. Even "stuff that came with the car" like removable tags and the plastic bag the manual came in (which were intended to be tossed) are a stretch.

Now paint, bolt types, clamps, clips, assembly paint marks, that's fine.

Greg Rogers

Yeah, I was actually just making a observation, I guess, not really a complaint. I do have a bunch of Olds items and books, just really don't plan to lug them to Gettysburg. I will get a fire extinguisher as I feel that is smart. I hope to see a bunch of you there, It will be a great time.

Run to Rund

I discussed with Chief Judge Ed Konsmo after the 2011 Nationals that sometimes a paint chip, etc. was all that separated some very nice cars in the Modified Class I judged (28 cars). I suggested that if some cars all all very nice, 990 points or above, to make a cut-off proposal, they should all advance to Seniors even if not technically scoring the highest. Otherwise a car could be kept back for years depending on what else appeared in the class. He agreed and it became one of the rules. As our current Chief Judge says, let's have fun. OCA is not trying for Corvette Concours or Pebble Beach, more aligned to recognizing the hard work and accomplishments of the members on Oldsmobiles that might be trailer queens or daily drivers. Jerry Wilson's minivan is in Senior Preservation, is driven often, and takes at least one pass down the track at the OCA race each year. It has way over 100,000 miles on it.

Run to Rund

I don't lug the service manuals to the show, but I have factory literature, sales brochures and service bulletins, that are easy to bring and display. It really is easy to accumulate enough spirit items, and they show the viewers interesting things.