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Hi again,
I let my Toronado sit for a few weeks, and now it doesn't start. Added gas to the tank, it might have been empty. It cranks ok, sounds right, just won't start, feels "dry".
I removed the brass line fitting from the carb, but couldn't pull the line out of the tube to the carb. So with just the nut pulled, and the line loose, cranked it, and some gas spritzed out, but not a lot. (but the line is still mostly in the tube).
So a few questions:
1. Should the brass line look this crimped? It's jammed right against the thermostat. I loosened the nut, but couldn't pull the line out. (1st photo).
2. I wanted to try the bottom of the line by the pump, but that nut is not moving (2nd photo). Did wd-40, but I'm afraid to roll the nut. Any suggestions, just give it whack?
3. Could the pump have just gone bad? It's probably old, may be original?
4. Pour gas in the carb to see if it starts? (or is that an urban legend...)
The fuel inlet line to the carburetor is definitely kinked badly......time for a new one.
WD-40 is not a penetrating oil. Try attempt tightening just before you unscrew it.
Yes you can pour a little gas in the carb ( maybe a ounce or so) and try to start immediately with lid still off. If it starts up and runs a few seconds and quits then you know it's a fuel problem. If you do that and cars continues to run, you still have a fuel problem- maybe intermittant, weak fuel flow? maybe the pump? fuel filter?, If you do that and still no start then you know there is another problem- most likely no spark or others. That kinked fuel line was done probably when last fuel filter was changed- careful there... those Qjets strip out easily... I think the gas would go by that kink but yeah it should be replaced- Why so tight to tstat housing? There maybe different filter housings- the line shouldn't touch the tstat housing. good luck let us know what you find.
That fuel line is kinked so bad that its nearly pinched shut. I doubt you can get enough fuel through the line to keep the engine running.
USE two wrenches, one on the filter housing at the carb to keep it from turning and another wrench on the fuel line fitting to loosen it.
First, did the car run with that kink previously? If so, that's not your current problem so don't focus on the line right now.
Second, you can fill the carb through the bowl vent. Use a syringe or similar device and squirt gas into the float bowl. This simply fills the float bowl the same way the fuel pump would, so there's no issue. You can pour gas down the carb throat itself, but it's easy to pour too much, which runs down into the cylinders and washes the oil film off the cylinder walls, leading to premature ring wear. No, one time won't matter, but filling the float bowl is a better choice. Alternately, use starter fluid instead of gas down the carb. The starter fluid vapor won't wash down the cylinder walls. If the engine starts and briefly runs on starter fluid, you know the problem is fuel delivery, not ignition.
To fill the carb through the vent, squirt gas in here.
Thank you all, this is good detail and progress. The short story is I put gas in the float bowl through the vent, car started, ran for a few seconds, then quit (see patent-pending Carb Flask Funnel, a perfect fit!)
The kink has been there, even when the car ran fine. Here's the full sequence, which may be separate symptoms, but now I'm thinking fuel filter.
Ran fine for a few months, going out and about every few days.
It began to cough and stall when going up hill, when I'd press the accelerator. Let it sit a minute, and it would start and run fine, until the next hill.
Over a few weeks, this got worse, where any grade needing any acceleration, would stall. Any load on it would start coughing. I could feel it coming, try to back off, then it would stall.
This got to where I could only go about 1000 feet.
Then I let it sit for a few weeks, then it wouldn't start at all, with the symptoms in this thread.
Thank you all, this is good detail and progress. The short story is I put gas in the float bowl through the vent, car started, ran for a few seconds, then quit (see patent-pending Carb Flask Funnel, a perfect fit!)
The kink has been there, even when the car ran fine. Here's the full sequence, which may be separate symptoms, but now I'm thinking fuel filter.
Ran fine for a few months, going out and about every few days.
It began to cough and stall when going up hill, when I'd press the accelerator. Let it sit a minute, and it would start and run fine, until the next hill.
Over a few weeks, this got worse, where any grade needing any acceleration, would stall. Any load on it would start coughing. I could feel it coming, try to back off, then it would stall.
This got to where I could only go about 1000 feet.
Then I let it sit for a few weeks, then it wouldn't start at all, with the symptoms in this thread.
How old is the fuel pump? The rubber check valves in the pump can deteriorate over time - especially with ethanol-laced fuel. Once the check valves start to go, fuel pressure drops, so level in the float bowl drops, which causes the symptoms you describe. Eventually they get so bad that the pump won't even pull fuel from the tank. Note that while this is the most likely cause, it is not the only one. Could be a clogged filter. Could be a clogged inlet sock in the tank. Could be a cracked rubber line on the suction side, either at the tank or going into the pump. I'd check that first, since it is the easiest thing, before springing for a pump.
Fuel pump is at best from 1980s, when previous owner did a tuneup round, or it's older than that. I don't think the showroom I got the car from in 2018 replaced it. I'll check hoses and filter first.
My vote is for removing the filter in the carb inlet nut if putting a quality inline on the suction side. Stick with a hard bent steel line on the pressure side.
Has anyone seen an issue with no inlet nut filter? I'm wondering if the filter modulates the pulsing of the pump and if that matters???
Just a progress report, short story is it's not the filter. Still need to inspect the lines, then go for a fuel pump.
I got the fuel line off, used two wrenches and a bar for a lever, and that moved the stuck nut.
Inside the fuel inlet, it's clean, and the filter looks in good condition (I'll get a new one anyway, if I keep it). There was no spring, and there's no check valve I could see.
I reinstalled the line without the filter, and no help on starting it, so it's not the filter.
Last edited by goodeye69; October 24th, 2021 at 07:11 PM.
Just a progress report, short story is it's not the filter. Still need to inspect the lines, then go for a fuel pump.
I got the fuel line off, used two wrenches and a bar for a lever, and that moved the stuck nut.
Inside the fuel inlet, it's clean, and the filter looks in good condition (I'll get a new one anyway, if I keep it). There was no spring, and there's no check valve I could see.
I reinstalled the line without the filter, and no help on starting it, so it's not the filter.
Just a heads up...... the threads have been repaired with a "Heli-coil". Make sure your gasket doesn't leak.
Another progress report. Looks like it's the fuel pump, as expected. I pulled the incoming line off the pump, and it drained from the tank nice and clear. I put it back. I then did the test pulling the hard line from the carb inlet, ran a tube to a bucket, removed the coil wire, and cranked for 10 seconds. I only got 3 or 4 ounces, and it was full of junk (bucket photo). So the pump might have a bunch of crap dissolving in it.
I removed the pump - pretty easy - bolt from the bottom, and turns out it's a nut and stud on the top (didn't really need to take the nut off all the way).
So, while I look to order one, a few questions:
What kind of gasket sealer or cement do you like?
How to fasten the inline filter (discussion above). Just let it hang in line, or clamp it to the frame somehow? You can see there's only about 1 foot until it enters the frame.
Where to get steel tubing, to make a new hard line to the carb because of that kink? I'm ok trying it myself (unless that's a bad idea...)
That hard line will be very difficult to make yourself because of the sharp bend at the carb end. See if you can find a ready made line. Fusick, Inline tube, or maybe Thorton?
Agreed. Can't remember exactly which Fusick line I used on my 69, but trying to bend and flare the carb end with commonly available flaring tools and tube benders will be an exercise in frustration.
You may have to tweak the repro line a bit but easier to tweak than to make that carb end bend and flare.
Hi, ok, next baby step. I got the new fuel pump, but I can't get it to mount. The top flange only gets to about 1/4" from the block, and stops. (photos). The pump lever barely moves (on old and new pump, is that normal?), so it feels like it's out of position or something. I tried cranking the engine over in case it's the eccentric in the wrong place to get started, but no help. I also tried getting a socket on the engine bolt to try to turn the engine, but nothing moved.
I took a scope video inside, just because it's cool to see. Is that round disc the eccentric in the upper right of the opening?
Bob,
After watching the video, you can see that the original nylon toothed upper gear is still in the timing set. I know this is not related to your question, but you should really replace the timing set as the nylon gear is likely to fail after 50 plus years of use. It does look like the eccentric could move up slightly (spinning the engine over) to make it a little easier to install the pump. To your question, yes you should keep working at it, but the nylon upper gear is a ticking time bomb if you leave it in.
Loaded68W34, thank you - I got a bigger wrench and rotated the engine until the pump went flush easily. Thanks for the heads up on the timing gear - I'll learn about those next, after getting it running again!
Progress and question on float needle.
This is all looking like a systemic problem: crap in the gas from the tank, sending unit, fuel pump, blocked inlet to the carb.
I replaced the fuel pump and did another flow test, and got gas, but with another batch of crud from the tank. Next test:
- replaced the pump to carb line with a rigged hose, temporarily, just to get the kink out of the picture.
- ran a hose from a gas can to the pump inlet, to get the gas tank and crud out of the picture.
- primed the float bowl with an ounce of gas into the vent.
Car started as expected and ran for about 5 seconds, then stopped. There's nothing left, other than the inlet itself. From a suggestion to blow into the inlet, it's plugged, as if the float needle is stuck down.
Is there a way to unstick this without taking the carb apart? I wasn't looking to tackle a rebuild (yet). Someone said "take the top off", but I'm not sure what that entailed, and if it's a risk of dropping things into the engine (cue My Cousin Vinny). Carb cleaner into the intake? Poke it with something?
Bingo!! I sprayed carb cleaner around, including up the inlet, and that was enough to get it running!!! I'm very happy not taking the carb apart (yet). This was still with my rigged up gas can and hoses, so, next up:
- Learn about cleaning/replacing the fuel tank.
- Might as well replace the busted sending unit.
- Get a new steel line, minus the kink.
- Install inline filter before the pump, just to help with the crud factor, even if I clean/replace the tank.
Thank you for all the help. I'm back in a good mood!
October 16th, 2021, 06:36 PM
