jensenracing77

other than the things that were mandatory for the W-45 the Rallye 350 could have been ordered with anything a regular cutlass could have had. but the Rallye 350 could have been ordered with the W-27. there are things that can point to it being real but nothing other than paperwork that can prove it. a Rallye 350 is just a Cutlass with W-45 as one of the option. it is like someone trying to prove there Cutlass came with the options it has on it. for most of the options there just isn't any way to do it other than paperwork. most of the post Rallyes and the least optioned Rallyes were built earlier and the rest were later but that is not even a definite.

jensenracing77

supposedly the Rallye 350 was built to beat the insurance companies. the insurance just looked at it as another Cutlass. so it only makes sense that one will be hard to prove it is not a fake.

stevengerard

I for one appreciate these threads, in the end it was proven to be the real deal but at least it made us aware that 1) it may not have been real 2) that a rallye 350 was for sale and 3) it in fact was real.

Not that I'm in the market for a car, but usually there is almost always someone on this site that is and this can be informative - though I for one can do without the pi$$ing matches.

Allan R

Thank you. There are a few others who share this thought and that's exactly how it was originally intended to be read and understood.


FWIW aliens, you are way out of line with the 'ego' thing and my comment. I find myself wondering if you have the same perception of yourself as you're giving me??? My focus was entirely based on providing more info about docs. If he has some or not, all he has to say is 'I have the following docs and can post pics or send you email copies if you wish", or 'Sorry, all I have is the cowl tag'. Those 2 comments I could accept and make a business decision. I think this whole issue has been blown way out of proportion. I most certainly did not imply he was supposed to make up docs and am surprised that you would imply this. So you have experience selling cars huh? Get weary of replying to emails huh? I get that. Only remember that when all you get is an email request for info, that should be your golden opportunity to help close the sale. Based on your comments it sounds to me like your communication strategy has room for improvement too.

The W45 comment? No problem, I'll retract that as a mistake on my part but if you actually read the posts carefully you'll see that I posted a copy of a window sticker and suggested that if it wasn't on the cowl tag, at least an original window sticker document would easily validate the car. I also suggested that it would command a higher price with this authentication. So I think I've been fair and practical on this matter.

re: the 'rude' comment about Barrett Jackson? I don't think so. It's a relatively fair comparison of what authentication standards are asked for when cars in the top money asked category come around. Yes, Ebay is more loose with the buyer/seller market but since when is it a first ammendment crime to ask or state this? Hell, I'm not even a US citizen but understand and respect the principle. You on the other hand seem to imply that my freedom of speech is somehow rude/inflamatory?? My comments were NOT inciting defamation of character nor were they harrassement. The seller was the person who broke that ammendment with his comment as posted in permalink 32

re: you think the cowl tag switch comment may be rude/offensive? It's a fact that cars are rebodied and claimed original. Like you say = its up to me to prove, also up to him to disprove. So that becomes a neutral in a simple request for docs, and would help even a simpleton sales associate understand that a buyer is interested but would like some 'proof'. I still maintain that if he claims it is original there should be some form of documentation he is willing to share whether it's from the original owner, or through docs to make the buyer less apprehensive.

This was not about ego, regardless of what you may percieve. When I asked for any documentation the response "Al, the build date and paint - - code alone serves a proof enough ...." did not address my question. My comments about certification are legit. If you asked me "Hey is your 72 442 legit?" by your logic you must accept my comment "Well it was produced in Lansing in 72 where a lot of 442s were built" as validation. I think you'd want more proof if I was asking say 25-30K??? If you think my 'ego' got in the way you are entitled to your opinion, but I conversely see your 'ego' getting in the way similarly with your perceptions about what you think I think (there's a mouthful for you)

re: your comments about the 'contact seller'. It works great and it's fast. I had no problem with it and wasn't critical. With that in mind I hope you have a good relationship and business agreement with any potential purchases you are considering with this fellow.

Final note and I'm done with this thread
Well, let's see. I've already explained my POV on BJ. So all that's left is your somewhat intentionally taunting 'mother' statement. I think your words speak for themselves when it comes to the pot calling the kettle black.
I'm fully aware of the nature this forum presents as a user friendly website and value that. Sorry you seem to think I don't. We both seem to be strongly opinionated but I don't see the point of beating this around anymore.

aliensatemybuick

Someone should buy that car and convert it back to the special-order paint W-31 it started out as.

wmachine

That's absolutely not true.
1. With only the engine option being the standard 310 hp 350, there was nothing "to beat" with the insurance companies. The insurance dodge for 1970 was the W32 SX. That was a 442 in the form of a Cutlass Supreme.
2. Being hard to be a prove it was a fake is strictly a retrospective thing. At the time a car was new, it was not hard to prove anything with the insurance companies. Rates just had to do with how cars were classified.

GAOldsman

Really dude??................


I am like Allan in the sense that we all share our love for Oldsmobiles especially the A-bodied kind. Original thread starter had reason to doubt, going by seller's posts and correspondence gave plenty enough reasons for ANYONE to post their opinions on this particular car as just a heads up to our friends and comrades here on Classic Oldsmobile dot Com to be extremely careful when bidding or buying a "supposedly" correct car for what it is. No? Or should we let our brothers make an erroneous purchase merely because certain fine details aren't spelled out in highlighter? I can afford the car like many, if I choose to do so, however I would be ever so grateful to someone that shared his/her knowledge as to genuine or fake.

66-3X2 442

Yeah,that one got ugly and I'm sorry I got involved. I have really tried to stay away from bad crap like that but sometimes........... He's got a very nice car though.

jensenracing77

that is how i see it also. i never understood the claim. i have seen so much literature (must have been non oldsmobile) over the years that made this claim i guess i just started to believe it. i know the engine is nothing special.

RALLYE KID

I will try to say this as polity as possible. I know some of you think you know all about Oldsmobile's. Maybe you do or may you don't.But I can assure you this is a real rallye 350 not a clone heck maybe half you guys ripping on this car have clones I don't know. All I can tell you is this all the sheet metal on the car is all original EVEN THE HOOD. I don't care what you so called ram air hood expects think the hood is OEM ! Now for the paperwork the orginal owner threw it out when he bought the car. Now for the built sheet it maybe still in the car.My buddy never looked for it.Why would anyone in their right mine clone a Rallye 350 which is basically a yellow cutlass wouldn't you think someone would have clone a W31 or W30 something that is worth something. All I'm says is the car is a real nice driver and it is getting a bad rap on here.I will agree with you guys the broker that is selling the car is a complete *******. But what we a doing here is beating a dead horse it is what it is .

wmachine

As Ron Forsee always says, that is called truth decay. That's the problem with repeating "what I've heard".

aliensatemybuick

Well my last comment was what is known as satire. If the car ever did show up repainted as a W31, someone would likely then claim it was a converted Rallye.

I'm all for calling out a fake when its a known fact, and not just an opinion. I've owned 2 cars that I sold and were later marketed by a subsequent seller as something they weren't (factory original and/or matching numbers), and I did offer that info. on this site and THAT OTHER ONE, since I had personal knowledge of the car.

Offering opinion as fact...eh.

firefrost gold

i think this is what jens is talking about I have two or three olds books at home with similar info .http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...feature14.html

aliensatemybuick

Really, never noted you to engage in that kind of "stuff", haw haw...

I'm over it.

wmachine

I believe George misses the mark with his related comment in that article. With "could be dubbed ‘junior’ muscle cars", he (not the industry) lumps together hi performance (Pontiac T37) with the not high performance R-350. Shame on him, he should know better, as they are miles apart performance-wise. “Musclecar” was not even a term used then. It was “Supercars” and “Junior Supercars”. I don’t know why we now need to use different terminology. If you want to know what the thinking really was at Oldsmobile (not some writer’s version of it), go to Wild About Cars and read this:
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...aldisplayed=21
The Junior Supercar from Olds was the W31, not the W45. George did get back on track when he quoted facts (instead of offering an opinion) with “Internal literature written for Oldsmobile sales reps explained that the Rallye 350 was intended to compete with "an existing product group made up of performance appearance packages added to intermediate price leaders."
Note that it says “performance appearance packages”. And that is exactly what the W45 was.
Insurance companies don't charge for appearance, otherwise we'd all pay more for red cars.

firefrost gold

I think the term Jr supercar fits jmo , hood , spoiler, stripes wheel trim ring's gone same as the big boys so to speak was a selling ploy to appear jr supercar like at a dropped price sorta like implants . What do you mean the t-37 and the r 350 miles apart? Nice read I will have to look for more stuff on there for a 69 h/o .I think from what I know it was car mags that gave out the title super car but just what i was lead to beleive form things I have read or can remember. Keep the great info flowing .

wmachine

Are you kidding? Did you read that piece from Olds? Looks do not make a Supercar. It appears you are missing the distinction between *being* fast and *looking* fast. The T37 (and the W31) *are* fast. The R350 is not.
The reason the R-350s didn't sell was *not* the yellow bumpers!!!!!

TK-65

The T-37 was not fast at all. The car I think you are thinking of is the GT-37, and it came with a base 350 2bbl. The 400 and 455 were optional in 70-71 though. So the GT-37 could be fast.

aliensatemybuick

Not even with a 455?

I see TK edited his comment seconds before I posted my own. Actually, a T-37 could be ordered with a 400 or a 455 without the GT-37 option. Very rare, though.

wmachine

Of course I meant the GT-37, as I was referring to what George wrote, right? And it also *should* go without saying the the 455 version is what is being referred to, but apparently not.

joesw31

It's a very nice rallye 350, and some things pointed out / mentioned in the thread does not indicate that it is not a real rallye 350. However, documentation would help its value.

Mike77

So should we not change the title to:
BEWARE real jerk selling real Rallye 350 on Evil bay??

firefrost gold

why is he a jerk? The add had no "ask wife first" , don"t wast my time with questions if your not interested in buying, know it all's need not apply.

Jamesbo

Wmachine GREAT article. Your in depth information never ceases to amaze me-Thanks

aliensatemybuick

No, the thread title should be changed to "I won the HMM of the Year Award, but apparently can't afford to be magnanimous".

firefrost gold

now I have to look up what magamouse means

davebw31

mag·nan·i·mous

   /mægˈnænəməs/ Show Spelled[mag-nan-uh-muhs] Show IPA
adjective 1. generous in forgiving an insult or injury; free from petty resentfulness or vindictiveness: to be magnanimous toward one's enemies.

2. high-minded; noble: a just and magnanimous ruler.

3. proceeding from or revealing generosity or nobility of mind, character, etc.: a magnanimous gesture of forgiveness.

Am I suppossed to forgive myself, hmmmmmmmmmmm strange use of the word in this situation!

I did not know I had enemies on here.

aliensatemybuick

Here is the definition I was thinking of:

mag·nan·i·mous/magˈnanəməs/Adjective: Very generous or forgiving, esp. toward a rival or someone less powerful than oneself.

Think "gracious", as in throwing a fricken bone to someone who's car isn't as perfect and holy as your own.

droptopron

In general, I think the tone of the first post is what is oft putting. To declare it fake just because the current owner can't prove its real is heavy handed. Instead of fake it could be said its suspect.

davebw31

droptopron: I agree wrong choice of the word fake, my mistake. I still feel it is "suspect"!

ANYONE: Since I am NOT internet or forum savie, any way I can end this tread? This is and has been turning in to BS!

BTW: this car (body # 374800) was the 1441 body built before my model 3277 F-85 W-31 (body # 376241) was built. Build date on that car is 02C and mine is also 02C . So it was started the same week as mine. My "Juilan Dates" are the 51st and 52nd day of the year, that is Feb 21-22, 1970. It was started on the night shift on Friday and finished late in the day on the day shift, on Sat. This was based on the "Casting Clock" on all cast parts. As a matter of fact I have one exhaust mainfold that was cast on the 51st day and the other early on the 52nd day. We were pumping'em out the door like crazy! LOL

firefrost gold

now thats the info Im looking for Dave some one on here has Lead with your wisdom not force , You have what appears to be a very nice car and have forgotten more than I will ever know. Lead the not so informed but do it with grace and ye shall be praised . How about a post on how to read the date little clock looking things

davebw31

firefrost gold: I did not realize I was coming off that way. I am NOT that type of person! If I was i would not be sharing, helping, educating, still supporting the marque, and just in general trying to promote Oldsmobiles and what fine built cars they made! Besides, I did not spend $104,000 of my retirement fund to do my F-85 W-31 as "it looks like it was just delivered to a dealership" to please myself or inflate my ego. I did it that way to prove it can be done, can still get awards, and let the non-Oldsmobile (other makes) masses learn about the fact that Oldsmobile built some neat cars back then! You can not believe how many times on my 6,000 mile trip up the East Coast last year and now out here on the West Coast on this 9,000 mile trip, I hear all the time " I have heard of these and never seen one" or " boy you never see one of these at car shows". I had a Mopar guy from NYC, with 2.5 million dollars worth of Mopars, talk to me for an hour and one half as I was loading the car in the trailer. We talked about the restoration, how I did it to a museum quality level and about Olds performance cars. Ye gads, a Mopar guy interested in an Olds! WoW. So you see I am trying to educate the masses! LOL


I will start a new thread with that info. Someone has sent me a PM on how to end this BS. So I did make a request to some Moderators to do so.

Look for: How to read "Juilan Cast Date" and the "Shift Clock" in the next few days or so.

firefrost gold

Have you on your trip ran into lee peer he has a 70 w-30 convert and is from
the Classic olds too?

davebw31

Yes I did! Very nice 70' W30 convert. Very impressed with the quality. He asked me to "look" at it and see if I saw anything that needed "correcting". As I have learned a long time ago, some do not like what I find. So I said "as long as you take it as being helpfull info and constructive criticism, I will do it".

I did see about 4 items that were incorrect and would not be to hard to correct. I.E. he had blue engine paint over sprayed on the exhaust manifolds. I told him jokingly "this is not a cheap-rolet". The engine was painted without the exhust manifolds installed! I also know the guy who did a lot of the work on that car. He is very knowledgeable and does excellent work! As a matter of fact he is one of the four "go to guys" I ask about things about Olds assembly that I have limited knowledge of or to confirm something I am not sure about. Also, I must add that several times they corrected me on an item or provided "correct" information that I was wrong about. It is called "networking". LOL