Allan R

Here's a question for you.
If your classic has the option of seat belts and shoulder belts, which do you wear?
My experience with the 72 Cutlass belting system (which I believe is the same from 68 - 72) is that the lap belt is the preferred option.

Yes, you can undo the shoulder restraint and clip it into the lap portion as described in your owners manual. But it's bloody uncomfortable to wear; at least I find it to be. And 1972 was the first year that the 'seat belt warning' buzzer and light went into production to remind you to 'click' it up.

So I'm curious. Whether it's US or Intl law that requires mandatory use of seat belts, which would you use? Thought this would be a good sampling so I'm making it into a poll so it's easy to track. Post your comments and vote.

rustyroger

A lot of cars built in the '60s for the UK market (fitting seat belts became compulsory in 1966) had very badly designed belts, difficult to put on and uncomfortable to wear.
Some American cars of the era seem to have similar problems.

I have always buckled up if belts were fitted, I only have control of my own driving and have to share the roads with everyone else, there are always a few who will endanger others with their bad driving.
I'm not exempting myself from making bad errors, but a belt may save me from any blunders I might make.

Roger.

svnt442

I only ever wore the lap belt in my old cars. I had 2 70's and a 72. The shoulder belts are just a terrible design and I believe could do much more harm than good.
The belts of today are of a much better design and function much better.

Intragration

It's not that important to me. I put the lap belt on in my older car to minimize the chance for a ticket if I get pulled over ("I'm wearing a belt, offficer") but that's about the extent of my concern.

72 cutlass455

Yes the 72 is a sorry design and not at all confortable so I use the lap belt most police officers just check to make sure you have some kind of belt on.

Oldskeeper

I added seat belts to all my cars, I would not drive or allow my kids in the cars without them, I remember in the sixties riding with my dad and rounding a bend in the road and the passenger door opening and sliding out if it wasn't for my fathers quick response and long reach I would have gone right out the door. This was in a 63 98 4 door, I still think about this every time I drive that streach of road so seat belts work.
Steve

Bluevista

I always wear them both if it has them, no matter how badly designed they may be in some instances they're better than nothing and have saved a lot more people than they've ever hurt. Having to eat a steering wheel sandwich, being ejected from the car and having it roll over you, or going through the windshield does a lot more damage than any seat belt can do to you IMO. In Ohio if the car originally came with lap and shoulder belts you have to have and wear them both by state law so not much choice here. The shoulder belts were reguired by federal law in hardtops starting on January first 1968 so not many cars don't have them anymore. The cops here pull over anybody they see not wearing shoulder belts, the tickets are a big moneymaker for them and it applies to anybody in the car now. The hard part is convincing them that the car wasn't originally equipped with lap or shoulder belts if it wasn't.
Just wearing a shoulder belt doesn't do much in a crash when you submarine under it and end up with severe or fatal spinal compression injuries under the dash, it isn't even a realistic option.

jensenracing77

in 70 the lap and shoulder have separate belts and buckles. i never unbuckle the shoulder belt. i just leave it hooked up all the time and slip in over my head and around my shoulder. the lap belt i hook up every time. i have been around enough crashes and involved in enough that i can't stand not having the lap and shoulder belt on. that is an area of the Jetfire i don't like. it has front lap belts and that is all. i am going to add back lap belts for the kids. the 62 don't even have head rests. if you have ever been rear ended by a drunk driver running 40MPH and you sitting still you will be full aware of the need for headrests. i know this will be on my mind every time we ever take the Jetfire out. my wife thinks i am nuts, i did quad freestyle, MX and 150 foot jumps at 30 feet high out freeriding on quads but worried more about seat belts and headrests in a car.

Willidog

When restoring my car some people told me not to put the shoulder belts back in, I put them back in but didn't wear them because of the poor design. I tried to the first few times I drove the car but the belt just won't let you do anything like lean forward or to the side. Once it's on you are REALLY restricted, which I guess is the point of the belt.

MDchanic

Nope. '68 to '70 had two completely separate belts and buckles.
After that, the shoulder belt latched into the lap belt buckle.

I always wear the shoulder belt in my Chevelle.
Always did, back in the day, too.
It holds you in like a race car driver - you have to unbuckle it to release the emergency brake.
Having wrecked a few of these as a kid, I KNOW how much I'd rather get hugged by that belt than smacked by the dashboard or windshield.

My grandfather had a body shop after the War, and drove the wrecker, and after that was an insurance adjuster, so he saw LOTS of accidents, back in the days of solid steering columns and plate-glass windows. He put surplus aircraft seat belts in all of his cars starting in the 1950s, and we wore them. too. I'm annoyed by the seat belt laws these days, though - hey, if you want to get killed, I think it's your right, and an evolutionary imperative, that you be allowed to.

- Eric

66luvr

I never gave seat belts a thought.
But that changed in 1981 when my son was born. Because I am a "Do as I do" dad not a "Do as I say" dad, I had to make it a habit to always wear a seat belt. So now the habit still lives, we both always wear our belts.
I've had wrecks with and without them on, I think it is better with.
One wreck without a belt was in a 69 Camaro, COPO 427 4spd. Only one straight piece left on the car and one good piece of glass, the driver door. I wound up in the back seat with a big gash in my head from taking out the dome light when flipping over and flying around inside. I think a seat belt could have helped. Thankfully I was alone in the car.

rocketraider

If the car has belts I wear them. I feel weird driving without them.

The 64 Starfires have lap belt only. The 69 Toronado has those hateful separate lap/shoulder belts and I wear only the lap belt in it- adjusted per the owner manual the shoulder belt will not let you move at all. The 74 Hurst and 76 Ninety Eight have integrated inertia reel type lap/shoulder belts which at least allow you some movement- reaching forward to release parking brake or turn on the lights for example.

The wagon, truck and Mercury have reasonably comfortable belts though the truck has an annoying habit of flipping the belt in its guide as most Fords of the era do.

What bugs me about mandatory seat belt laws is that they were pushed by insurance companies to reduce or avoid paying out claims. Don't get me wrong- it's simple common sense to wear them, but if there's a fine attached to a law you can bet your *** revenue is part of the scheme. Shame the big insurers won't mount a push to federally outlaw cell phone use and texting behind the wheel, since I'm bound to think those cause at least as big payouts as not using seat belts.

pcard

I always felt more like a part of the car with the lap belt on and, being tied in, better able to respond to emergencies. I believe it saved me grief a few times.
If shoulder belts are available I use them also. My first car was a Fiat spider bought in Italy which did not come with any belts at all. I put them in myself, lap and shoulder.

sammy

Okay, maybe I am just plain weird, but I don"t wear one in older cars but do in new ones....and then there is the question of no seatbelts on school buses...sorry off topic

stevengerard

Wow, same thing with me, we were just turning a corner and I had my hand on the door handle and as I held on through the curve the door opened. I bet we weren't going any faster than 20 but at that age my dad might as well have been going 100!

w-30dreamin

I wear both, lap and shoulder in my 71 and 72.

I do find it annoying having to latch 2 different belts and buckles. It is also annoying that the shoulder belt is not retractable so you can't slightly lean forward. It's also annoying to have to put the shoulder belt in the hooks on the interior roof with every exit of the car.
All the hassle is better than what can happen without them.

stevengerard

every since seat belts came in cars I have warn them. Belt laps alone are much safer than shoulder belts alone so I always wear the lap belts, my kids do as well. My convertible has the optional shoulder belts for the front occupants but I seldom wear those. I have actually read that the angle of the shoulder belt needs to be within 30 degrees above or 5 degrees below your shoulder - preferably above. In a 1970 convertible it is lower - much lower.

Shoulder belts were also an option in the back seat in 70 (though I have never ever seen a car with them) so I am thinking of maybe installing those but no matter what car, what age, the kids wear seat-belts and so do the parents. Period.

Seat belt laws would not be in place unless the idiots who don't buckle their kids buckled them in the first place. I too feel as an adult go a head and kill yourself but you shouldn't be killing innocent passengers because of stubborn ignorance.

allyolds68

The 68-70 two buckle design was worse. Do they do more harm than good?........

I'm living proof that they do more good than harm. I had both on in 1981 when I went through a telephone pole and end over end down an embankment and walked away

That being said, I only wear a lap belt in my convertible because it doesn't have a shoulder belt.

Allan R

Sounds like a diverse grouping of thoughts. As always your discussions lend more value from different aspects and add technical info I may not have known or considered. It may or may not affect my thoughts on belt use on my 72; I still hate that stupid system. I will absolutely wear the lap belts, but that's all, regardless of what anyone or statistics say.

Here in AB, seat belt (and that's the wording on legislated posted signs) use is legislated as compulsory. I interpret that literally for my 72. With newer cars we know the restraints are integrated and you have no choice. I've been pulled over for not wearing a 'seat belt' and released with an apology. No police officer here has ever questioned the non use of the shoulder restraints, and I doubt they could enforce it either.

(aside) I had no idea there were so many responses, there was only 1 email notification given by C.O. about a posting. Is that standard or did I miss something on the email notifications?

2blu442

Allan, the email will only tell you the first post per thread since you visited the site.

I shared in a different thread how the shoulder belt kept me from doing a face plant into the steering wheel. https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...5337-ouch.html


Yes the two belt setup in 1970 restricts movement, but that accident happened so fast I had little time to react. If I had no belts on I'm sure I'd been lauched through the windshield and not be here today to make these comments I'll put up with the discomfort to be safer. John

coppercutlass

I have racing buckets and i have the wide 3 inch lap belts I just dont feel safe driving around with no seatbelts .

ziff396

I just plain hook up both. I ended up under the passenger dash on a 69 Impala @ 70 mph as I went to pass a car and the car in front of me did the same while I was in her blindspot. Spun 360 and hit a bridge railing and bounced off. Luckily not in the water below. I only ended up with a bump on the head, but the car was smashed flat almost to the windshield. It took me about a year before I would pass another car again!

OLD SKL 69

I always wear my belt when I drive, would feel naked without it. My 63 Riv has the lap belt and I wear that all the time. The 71 has both, but I mostly use just the lap as well. Probably should wear the shoulder more often, especially when I'm on the highway.

cutlassgal

I wear the lap belt in Teepo. I've never had the shoulder belts down out of their holders. I've always worn seat belts in any car I'm in, as driver or passenger!

joe_padavano

Sorry, but people who don't wear lap and shoulder belts are just demonstrating evolution in action. And please remember, even the uncomfortable dual belts on the pre-73 cars passed federal testing, so anyone who thinks they do more harm than good is just kidding him/herself.

Frankly, I would normally say that wearing or not wearing belts is a personal choice, except that MY auto insurance rates go up due to medical payments to non-belt wearers who only get severely injured instead of killing themselves. In parts of Europe, auto insurance companies are allowed to pay out at a reduced rate if it can be proven that the occupants in a crash were not wearing belts.

Jetstar 88

From my personal experience, shoulder belts saved my life. When I got in a wreck in my '03 Jetta the combination of seat belts, air bags, and a strong passenger cabin saved my ***, not to mention my friends, who were also wearing belts. We were able to get out of the car with no injuries (other than some cuts). All the first responders were amazed we weren't hurt, much less killed.

Jamesbo

I wear them in any car that has them both lap and shoulder. If you choose not to, Well, Youi're very likely to become another statistic.

Bucket up Please

Intragration

What about motorcycle riders? I wonder if those same insurance companies pay out reduced rates to people who are injured while riding a motorcycle? It doesn't strike me as quite logical to punish people in cars who don't wear seatbelts, while fully covering motorcycle riders, who have chosen a much more dangerous method of transportation. What about drivers of old cars without airbags and ABS? These things are all impacting our insurance premiums...

oldspackrat

I always wear my lap & shoulder belts in any car I'm riding in. It is a bit of a nuisance to put both of them on, but that's part of the "charm" of these older cars.
I would say the vast majority of the time wearing seatbelts is better than not wearing them. That being said, I was in the back of a big '79 Thunderbird stopped on the hiway in 1983 & a semi ran completely over the trunk & into the cabin of that car. I did not have my belts on at that time, but if I did, I would have been folded in half & completely smashed. I was somehow thrown sideways behind the front seats in the floor & there was no room there except for where I was. There is no doubt I should have been killed except God didn't want me yet.

oldsguybry

I myself will have to get use to wearing seatbelts , I just cant seem to get into the habit to wear them

lshlsh2

Wear lap belt in my 71 conv. Only thing I have. At some point in my restoration will add the shoulder belts even though they may not be the best. Somehow a dislocated shoulder sounds better than swallowing a horn button with all my teeth.

Larry

rustyroger

There will always be a scenario where a safety device will add to injuries rather than prevent them, but these are freak accidents and no car can ever be completetly safe.

When Princess Diana was killed in France the only survivor was her bodyguard who WAS wearing his belt (nobody else was), he got his injuries because she smashed into him from the back seat. I dare say if everyone had buckled up they would all have survived.

Roger.

Indy_68_S

When my '68 was my daily driver in the 1980's, I just wore the lap belt because that's all it has and I didn't use it very often.

I rarley used belts in any of my cars back then.

That changed ~1991 when I was in a mid-speed head-on as a passenger & wasn't using a belt.

Now I'm religious about belt use. It feels odd the drive without one.

I now wish the '68 had some sort of shoulder belt as the lap belt is going to just fold you over into the wheel in a frontal.....

stevengerard

This is why I usually don't wear my shoulder-belt in the convertible, though I do like the tight fit. It is not a shoulder injury I'm worried about its the spinal injury. Remember just because it passed regulations 41 years ago doesn't mean its right today. I'm a huge seat-belt person but this scares me thus why I usually only wear the lap belt IN AN OLD CONVERTIBLE

Lap belts perform best when they act at an angle between 45° and 55° relative to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle as illustrated in part A of the Figure. This angle permits the lap belt to react to the upward pull of the shoulder harness. A system installed with a shallow belt angle, as shown in part B of the Figure, permits the shoulder harness to pull the lap belt up off the pelvic area and into the abdominal region with the likelihood of injury to internal organs. The end attachments of the shoulder harness must also be installed at appropriate angles. The ideal position is anywhere between 5° below and 30° above the driver's shoulder, as seen in part C of the Figure.


If the upper attachment point falls significantly below the driver's shoulder, then a spinal compression injury is likely to occur. In an accident situation, the shoulder belts pull down and back on the torso as they resist the forward motion of the driver. The resultant restraint force compresses the spinal column and will add to the stresses in the spine already caused by the force of the crash impact.
On the other hand, if the trailing ends of the harness are too far above the shoulder (greater than 30°), then two problems can occur. First, tension in the shoulder harness is increased and undue stress is applied to the harness and its structural attachments. Second, excessive angle will cause excessive motion. If the harness belts are too far above the shoulder, they will provide little resistance to forward motion of the driver's upper torso. The result is impact with the steering wheel and the possibility of neck injury. The shoulder straps should also be 3-6" apart behind the driver's neck to prevent slippage off the shoulders.

miked

My 65 had belts but we weren't educated about use back then and it took a minor accident and 6 weeks in an army hospital to prove their value to me. Late at night, slow speed, fell asleep and ran off right shoulder and when I woke up I was not in driver position to keep from crossing road and running off left side, thrown out and trapped under car. This is the argument I give to all who say it is their right to kill themselves..yes, but it is your obgligation to stay behind the wheel to control your car. I was lucky an innocent person was not involved. I ALWAYS buckle up when belts are available. My 67 only has lappers and I feel exposed without shoulder belts.

Allan R

Glad you're still with us Scott. I've also heard many horror stories similar to this that are exceptions to the rule. Kind of like a divine intervention? Amazing though, if you check out the vast majority of newer cars, they still don't have shoulder belts, just lap belts and side SRS.

On a general average I have no argument. I would never kid about the statistics generated by collisions. However, if the intent of GM was to ensure that lap/shoulder belts were to be worn together was a mandatory safety issue, I think they would have combined them as with later model years. I also am of the opinion that safety testing back in the day had to consider that only lap belts would be used by the cars occupants. So, EITHER use of lap belt, or combined use of lap/shoulder belts would be considered safe; certainly better than none use.

Glad you and your friends survived that Jetstar. That is a testimonial to the advances in auto engineering and safety devices being build into modern cars. That said, 03 standards have been improved on significantly as well. In Nov I witnessed a 2011 Nissan Versa plow into a power pole at around 45 mph! The car obviously was a total write off. The occupant was dazed, but survived with only minor bruising. If that had been an older car? I'm guessing the driver would likely have been killed, even with safety belts on.

oldzy

Am I missing something about 72's being different design? My '72 has two separate belts for driver and passenger... for a total of 4 belts and 4 buckles on each side. The shoulder belt does not buckle to the lap one at all.

MDchanic

Hmmmm... I recall that '72s have a single buckle, probably because my Skylark did, but I can't quote the law chapter and verse on that one.

I could look it up later if I had to, though.

Could it have been a mid-year change?

- Eric

oldzy

Perhaps. Might explain my chrome bezel trunk release button also... I think it was mentioned that it was a '70 design.

stevengerard

yep sounds like you have a few "features" from 1970