davebw31

Item # 170703170133

1) Has a Thorton ram air hod (no screen and no excessive adhesive/bonding glue gushing from edges of metal reinforcement)

2) Looks like a repo rear wing, although 3 piece.

3) Wrong air cleaner base. Not the wider hot air intake snorkel on a true ram air cleaner, thus the reason no hot air tube installed. Plus no hole in the end of the snorkel for the Calif NA9 Emmission requirement.

Plus if I remember correctly did not the Rallye 350 have the option code "W45" stamped in the Fisher body tag on the cowl, on the third line as the build date?

dave b.

Allan R

Well Dave,
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/170703170133?...fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 is certainly a nice looking car and a lot of work went into building it. There are a lot of things that are going for it, regardless of the issues you identified, eg: the QV oil fill tag is correct for a Ralley 350 with a manual trans. Actually I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the tire pressure decal being in the wrong place and the windshield wipers aren't in the park position.

I would agree that a car that claims impecable restoration does not have any pedigree papers listed in the auction. It does make you stop and ask Hmmmm????

Now I don't know that the cowl tag had the W45 stamp, but it sure as heck would be in the window sticker and build sheet.


IMO, without the documentation, this car will never bring the money that's being dreamed for.

Here's what I did. Emailed the seller and asked if he has any documentation on this car. Lets see what comes back.

aliensatemybuick

Never been a big fan of the Rallyes, but that one sure looks sharp and is optioned for fun.

Hairy Olds

I'm pretty sure that a cutlass got carpeting and the F-85 had the rubber mat.
The car looks good to me quality wise from the pics.
Minor mistakes visually but sometimes that tells me that there may be deeper issues.

GAOldsman

I think something is fishy, he states it has F-41 suspension and ALL Ralleye 350's came with FE-2 suspension (Mandatory), states he upgraded to W-31 intake, but retained the original, hmmm wonder what part # and or build date is on "his" original.

Cowl tag is correct for any special paint (- - for paint), heads are correct, TR 900 = black interior (check), B90 = Chrome Door Window Frames (check)

Lots to prove if he wants that kind of $$ for it.

Allan R

So I sent the following email to this guy:

He is quick to reply:
So I felt obligated to conclude:

edit: as an afterthought I tagged another couple of lines into another email back to him:

GAOldsman

And most W-45's have - - however some select few have code 51 on cowl tag that represents Sebring Yellow

Otherwise my book also states that the ONLY sure way to tell it is a Ralleye 350 is through original paperwork and documentation and if it has original carpet maybe the buildsheet is under the driver's side front seat and if so W-45 WILL be listed on that sheet.

Great job on calling this guy out by the way , lets see what he can produce.

Lady72nRob71

I thought the F41 suspension was the firm ride and handling package for the 80's G-bodys...
FE2 was used in the early 70's

Allan R

Check out this CO link. It has a lot of clarification on FE2 and F41
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...n-package.html

Allan R

Scott, just got the last email from this 'expert'. He says:
So the auction is over, and I replied:
Whoever buys it will have a nice looking car and probably drive the crap out of it. What's that noise in the background??? Sounds suspiciously like the 'General Lee' dixie horn challenging this guy to a backroads duel.....

firefrost gold

Why do you guys care so much? You can't prove its a scam any more than
he can it isn't . What made you want to start this thread ?

GAOldsman

To me it is like taking a 5 dollar bill and rubbin ole Abe's head off da front and pasting Grant's mug on it and puttin a zero next to all de 5's. With just the pics he has and NO docs to back it........ just My opinion of course

sicky olds

From what i see this is a Rallye 350, maybe he cleaned off the screen or not who cares. There was nothing on the body tag that would tell you its a rallye except the - - color scheme meaning custom paint and that it was built in Lansing. It has the #6 heads. So yeah looks A OK to me. But who cares as long as the buyer is happy with what he/she bought....

aliensatemybuick

Its all about ego; better to stick with the "lesser" car's and fly under the radar of the "big dogs".

Allan R

1. What's wrong with caring about a nice looking Oldsmobile that's on the open market? Most buyers nowadays don't know the right questions to ask when it comes to older cars, or what to look for in the details. They are very tech savy about new ones, but no smarter than a sidewalk when it comes to old ones.

2. What's wrong with asking a seller for documentation? And how do you know I wouldn't be interested in this car myself???? I can easily afford it. IMO A seller willing to prove it's not a scam is a seller worth dealing with and I think that car looks smokin. Only I like a documented car - if that's ok with you?

3. Ask Dave. I suspect it has something to do with his past employment at Oldsmobile Lansing production and he saw something he thought was wrong. He has the right to post - it wasn't political - just intended as a warning as far as I could tell.

It's no different than other threads that get posted on here from time to time. I'd say why worry about it if you don't care? But it's obvious this is really bugging you or you wouldn't have posted here. Anyway the auction is over so the thread can fade off into the sunset...... Don't worry about it, I'm not going to.

GAOldsman

Next.....

Just kidding, it is a very nice car and proof of original documentation is next to impossible to produce especially if it is a 3rd or more owner car. However a serious buyer would need to go through it with a fine toothed comb due to discrepancies mentioned above and correspondence with Allan just reiterates the potential fact seller has something to hide.

davebw31

F-85 wipers do not park, as they use a a different wiper motor. The wipers "park" on the W/S above the lower W/S mldg.

As far as the "tire pressure decal" that was not important to me, as that was not a factor on whether it was real or not!

Original ram air hoods used an adhevise/bonding glue to affix the steel support to the fiberglass top and if it was real there would be evidence of the bonding material at the edges of the steel support. There is none. I have seen hundreds of hoods in the assembly plant, I think I should know.

I have seen his hoods and been at Thortons shop and the process is guite different in bonding the steel support to the fiberglass!

Just wanted to warn the Olds community that this is a clone.

BTW: there was several F-85 cars built with dash dash paint code Fisher Body tags, mine is one of those, although it is Rallye Red and has the W-31 option. it appears that this was one and someone decided to make it in to a Rallye 350 and thought they would get more $$$. I have to agree the build date made me doubt it was a clone because all of the Rallye 350 were built during late Jan., Feb., and March. Released to dealerships in April. i still believe it is a clone.

GAOldsman

Thanks for the insight Dave!! Little clues like that you mentioned are all anyone with the knowledge has to determine if in fact it is true blue or a shady pale green.

Dave can you shoot me a PM? I have unanswered questions about my Lansing built Supreme.

70Post

From the one pic of the hood on the photobucket link in the auction...frankly you cannot see the areas close enough to tell whether or not there's the excess panel adhesive squeezed out around the contact areas.

The metal hood underside appears to have the raised "pads"/"dimples" where the OAI screen was attached to the metal...do Thornton hoods have that feature?? (I don't know).

I don't see a pic that provides a view/angle that would allow you to say the opening on the underside of the snorkel is the wrong diameter (if that's what you are saying). Other than the lack of a hole in the end of the snorkel, the snorkel dimensions appear correct to me.

Edit: Another pic I see showing the rear of the foam seal/flapper and the rear underside of the hood shows some of the excess panel adhesive that is typical for that area.

How can you say "it's a fake"?.....unless you have personal knowledge of it being one - I don't see anything that tells me 100% that it's a fake. I don't say that in an "accusatory" manner...what I mean is you can't point to anything that tells us, with 100% certainty, that it's a clone.

Sure, there's plenty of "incorrect" features on the car but nothing dispositive.

oldspackrat

I'm not stating an opinion either way, but I did notice that the third hood bumper(only on OAI cars) was not installed. Easy to miss this little detail if you are cloning one & aren't as **** as some of us on here.

Also, like Dave B said, this one has the non hidden wipers. The long stainless piece at the bottom of the windshield is different than the much more common hidden wipers. Also the wiper arms, or at least one of them is specific to non hidden wiper system.
I wonder if the ground strap for the tail lights is there???? Another detail easy to miss.

RALLYE KID

This Rallye is not a fake. It is the real deal this clown selling the car is a broker( HIS WHOLE ADD IS ONE BIG LIE). He bought the car from my buddy about a mouth ago for 17k. I know this car inside and out. My buddy owned this car for 20 some years and was his baby. 1st the hood is not a repo it is an original the screen feel off when the original owner owned it. 2nd the air cleaner is correct I have a rallye 350 with 48k on it that my uncle bought brand new and it has the same air cleaner on it. 3) The spoiler is an original my buddy bought this from the orginal owner and the original owner had the W31 intake installed on the car in '71 at the Oldsmobile dealership 4) For the Rallye 350 expert on this thread there was no W-45 stamped on the cowl tag.In my option the is worth between 18 & 19k all day long.The car is a nice drive and deserves a good home.If anyone has any questions about the car I will be happy to answer them and give you the real skinny on the car.

firefrost gold

what is he lieing about ?

507OLDS

Just be cautious of the 70 Rallye hardtop that was rebodied with a 71 body,and has the fuel vapor/emissions can behind the rear seat. OOPS. I know that one has been floating around,and originated in Ohio.

RALLYE KID

MY F85 Rallye came with carpet !!

Allan R

Patton,
I consider you to be a foremost expert on 70 Cutlass. Generally a good seller will back up his claims with docs of authenticity, or advertise that there is no documentation avail. So can you please answer this: Is there any way to authenticate the cars heritage without paper trail? Is the cowl tag good enough? I don't know the answer to this and would really like to. I know that some unscrupulous sellers will either re-body or re plate their cars. (After the fact, Rallye Kid has provided some evidence that the car is what it claims to be)

The one thing the seller would NOT do was provide me with any evidence of documentation. Without seeing the car in person, it still looks amazing and desirable. My whole point in this discussion was based around the issue of docs.

Now that Rallye Kid has chimed in with his comments, I am guessing that the seller doesn't have the docs. 17K selling price a month ago, yeah I would have no trouble paying that for this quality of resto but would still have asked for some docs. For 17K, I still would have loved the car for what it is and represented back in the day. Always wanted a 70 Rallye with a 4 speed. I remember getting beat by them back in 72 when my Cutlass was new.

jensenracing77

without papers there is no way to prove a Rallye. the sad thing is, almost all real Rallye 350s out there can not be proven. including mine.

Allan R

Morning Eric!
So in a nutshell, unless the FO kept the paperwork and factory sticker there's nothing to go on? That's a shame. Still, I love that car. I notice that some have AC, some have lower vent cooling only (no vents in dashpad) and some have dash vent airflow. Some have carpet and some don't etc. Do you know if there's a rhyme or reason behind all this? Sort of like some have post chrome and wheel trim rings and some don't?

davebw31

Patton: were the snorkel attacts to the base, it is supposed to "swedge out" or " be a larger diameter" than a non-ram air cleaner base snorkel. Plus ALL 70' air cleaner had to have the hole, encase the car was sold to Calif. Only in 71' did you start to see the hole "go away" because starting in 71' all cars had to meet the 70' Calif Emmission requirements and then in 72' I saw very, very few with the hole. Also the missing hot air tube gave me question. Of course I am basing my info for the Lansing Plant only! All the emmission testing was only done there. All this is a mute point according to Rallye Kid.

Rallye Kid: I stand corrected! Sorry. BTW: I tried to contact the seller first through Ebay and Ebay would not allow me to contact or ask the seller a question, so another red flag. It appeared the seller wanted nothing to do with anyone. Another red flag.

aliensatemybuick

Funny, Allan had no trouble sending his nastygrams. Auction is over, but I had no problem using "ask the seller a question" feature with this car or another he has on auction currently.

70Post

Allan - Thanks

"Generally a good seller will back up his claims with docs of authenticity, or advertise that there is no documentation avail."

Ha Ha - unfortunately a large number of these cars are landing in the hands of dealers who, by nature, are incapable of telling the truth about pretty much anything. When they might know something they just plead ignorance. Most of them don't really know the nitty-gritty details of each model as it is so they're relegated to posting generic historical info or they make it up as they go. It's sales and this element takes it to the extreme.

I checked the Hollander Interchange Manual and looked under "Car Dealer" and it says they have one interchange....."Politician".

"Is there any way to authenticate the cars heritage without paper trail?"

I'm not aware of any other method that's 100% proof. Firewall tags, etc can be swapped from body shell to body shell (NOTE TO OTHER READERS-- Please, let's not get into a discussion on whether or not swapping tags is OK as those never seem to end and that's not what this thread is about).

I'm no "expert" in paperwork/documents on these cars but at the end of the day a handful of paperwork can "travel" just as easily from car to car as a set of body tags.

So......

I guess what WE (us Olds nuts) have to go on would be one or more of the following:

>The right tags - Example would be things such as the - - paint code on a special order color car (still the tag could have had a number instead of the - - from what I understand-which may be right or wrong), LAN/M on a car represented as a W-Machine, big clock codes on '72 cars, etc

>"Paper work" - Broadcast card(s), build sheets, window stickers, Protecto-Plates, dealer type paperwork that may have ended up with the car, etc.

>The right parts - pretty much self explanatory but subject to lots of arguments

>The right date codes and stampings - on parts in relation to the build date of the car. With the way many of these cars were used this can really be a moving target...people by and large didn't originally buy these things with an eye towards keeping them forever or preserving every original thing......after all, these are cars.

>The right "look" - are the parts real or are they repro or later replacement versions, etc.

>Backup info or knowledge - "Rallye Kid"'s postings on his personal knowledge of the previous owner and the car would be an example. Sure, this isn't necessarily information that will "travel" with the car to help with later sales but IT IS THERE and can be pursued to add a level of comfort. A "flipside" example of this would be a supposed W-machine wagon that was advertised as being real on one site for some $$....over on ROP a guy popped up and threw cold water all over the seller's BS and told how he created the car himself from parts many years prior. There you have it.....a person could have contacted this guy (the guy that created the car) and got the story.

>Cars sold into Canada - Documentation service is available from what I understand.

That's the hand we've been dealt. At the end of the day on many cars you have to make a "judgment call" I guess. Sure, it sucks sometimes as at some point a buyer sort of has to bite his or her tongue, cringe and write a check without ever being 100% positive on a cars true nature.

I probably missed something important here but those are just some thoughts that come to mind.

Dave - I now see what you are referring to on the air cleaner snorkel...yes, definitely no expanded/swedged out area where the snorkel meets the main air cleaner base. I was looking at the other end. Good eye!!

aliensatemybuick

The most important thing you missed:

Declaring something a fake without proof is no different than declaring something real without proof.

Allan R

Nastygram??? I didn't think it was. I think the right term is "info request". Just for your information, I didn't post the latest one he sent me that reflects the credibility and ethics this guy shows professionally. You think I'm nasty? Have a look what he emailed me using ebay messages / email :

Sheesh, the guy doesn't even know how to spell Red Green's name right, or know how to compose a sentence. BTW, I could easily afford this car, and would love to have a Rallye 350. Now I just don't like the jerk and wouldn't pay his inflated profit price for something he paid 17K for. Also, while I don't consider my 72 to be a restored show car, but it's darned nice and shows VERY well. I've had offers in the high teens for it just the way it sits but won't sell because it's my passion and has tremendous sentimental value - It was my Father's Oldsmobile. As time goes by, who knows? I might decide to build another one - but it will likely be a clone with all the tech upgrades.

sicky olds

Well said, totally taking this for my signature line btw . If you dont want me to i will take it off lol.

aliensatemybuick

Actually, the seller was refering to TOM Green, not Red Green (who I consider to be quite funny). I'd say he was being a bit tongue in cheek in his last response. But if it was rude, consider your own messages to him. Your first was reasonable enough, even if you quoted some incorrect info re: the W45 code on the cowl tag, and his response back was reasonable enough as well. I think YOU went nasty first with the irrelevant Barrett-Jackson jibe and later taunts (your mother must be so proud), and really, what can you possibly expect in response?!

Consider how this thread started out bad and went downhill fast. O.P. calls out the car as being fake when all he REALLY saw (no more, no less) were some incorrect/repro parts. He gets at least one detail wrong, which you quote as gospel back to the seller. Someone else then chimes in that the car must be fake because its got carpeting?! O.P. acknowledges the date and paint codes are consistent with the car being a real Rallye, but then states that he still thinks its a clone, ostensibly built using a remarkably uniquely equipped car. Previous owner's friend chimes in to say he knows the car to be real and then everyone agrees to disagree.

And this is supposed to be the "kinder, gentler" Olds forum. Don't worry, I know what nasty is; if there's any doubnt, check out the dog-pile-on-the-rabbit thread on that OTHER Olds forum with the guy selling the unquestionably real W31.

Its all about ego. The "every car but mine sucks, and I know more than anyone else" effect, pure and simple.

DreWRoolZ

I don't see how any of allans emails were inappropriate or nasty. he was simply explaining to the guy that more proof would make his sale alot easier and the guy clearly didnt want to prove it with his short responses. nothing allan said warranted a response like the one he gave.. just my opinion!

aliensatemybuick

Hey, my "ego" comment works both ways. Seller may well be a jerk. But if the docs don't exist to "disprove the negative", what is the guy supposed to do exactly, chit one out?

aliensatemybuick

My gift to you.

DreWRoolZ

i understand what you're saying but the guy didn't have to make such a rude comment just because someone asked him about proper documentation and pointed out that it would make the vehicle sell alot easier. a simple 'i dont have the documentation, sorry, someone will buy it without' or something would have sufficed just as well instead of saying things that could easily have been swapped or something is 'enough proof' when it indeed is not. allan could have also worded it a little mor politely but i dont consider what he said 'rude' he was just stating that at barrett jackson they wouldn't find that enough proof but then again he isnt trying to sell it there he is trying to sell it on ebay and alot of ebay buyers are alot less picky then barret jackson buyers.. idk just my 2 cents not trying to argue with anybody

aliensatemybuick

Some would choose to "kill them with kindness" when told the car they are selling aint worth their asking price. Clearly others would choose a different approach. Having marketed a few "merely nice" cars, I'll say from experience that it can be wearying to respond politely to each and every naysayer.

Regardless, the "contact seller" function for that auction worked perfectly fine, so that's one less supposed red flag.

DreWRoolZ

indeed sir! i find myself sometimes saying something i shouldnt have sometimes peoples words can just push you over the edge i need to learn better control myself