Mark71

I've got a kinda' random question. A buddy around my way is selling his 81 Cutlass. It has a 70's 455 in it and is tuned to make decent power. Not too cammy, but a little - nice compromise between power and street manners.

Here's the issue... Let's pretend I actually had the money to buy it (I don't) and could get the wife to agree (ha!). How could I register it?

How would I pass emissions? In DE, it would need to pass '81 emissions standards. Does that mean I'd have to put back an entire 80's modified Q-Jet (feedback vacuum hose mess) back on there?

How about cats? I would need them (he's got them), but clearly a 1970 455 with cats won't be passing '81 emissions, right?

Anyone have any experience with this? I've seen so many out there with 350's and 455's in them... And I like the g-bodies.

J-(Chicago)

You would have to check your local laws, and how they go about enforcing them.
Around here they don't even bother testing anything older than 1995. If it doesn't plug into their OBD computer, it's not worth the time and effort.

IL state isn't interested in training a new crop of kids who will only make 8 bucks per hour how to drive and test old cars.
Lots of problems with their dynomometers, and damage to vehicles.

GTI_Guru

no clue about Deleware, but here they stopped doing e-check right about the time that Cash-for-clunkers started up. Between e-check for a decade and the government "buying off" all the old cars, it got rid of a majority of the old iron around here.

When I was living/working at an Auto shop back in Denver in the mid 90's, they were so strict that you had to have ALL the emissions components on the engine that went with the year it was manufactured, even if it passed a smog check buy the numbers using a tailpipe sniffer, if it was missing the AIR pump, or had a bypassed EGR, it would be flagged and failed.

It's all going to depend on the local laws in place there, and how tightly they are enforced.

Personally, I've always been of the opinion that an anual safety inspection kept the majority of unsafe & pollution causing vehicles off the road more than an emissions test.

-Jeff

joe_padavano

You need to check the specifics of the DE laws, but the overarching federal law says it is illegal to tamper with or remove any factory installed emissions equipment. That car is illegal, period, and will not pass a visual test, much less a tailpipe test. Since the car has been tampered with, any waiver limits on repair costs that the state has will likely not apply.

Now, having said that, you really are at the mercy of the test inspector. If you were to carefully install ALL the original emissions equipment on the 455 and paint and dress it to look like a 307, (including a catalyst), you MIGHT sneak it past the visual inspection. Most uninitiated observers can't tell the difference between a 307 and a 455 from the outside. The biggest problem will be the A.I.R. tubes, which screw into threaded ports in the heads on the 307.

Will that engine pass a tailpipe test? Depends. If your state requires dyno testing you MIGHT be able to tune it to pass, but it depends on the cam.

Keep in mind that the reason why states require dyno AND visual tests is because the dyno is only a spot check at a couple of operating points, not a check of the full function of the emissions control systems under all operating conditions. If the car passes the dyno test AND all factory systems are in place, the car is assumed to be compliant. You can probably get the 455 to pass at the specific test points on the dyno.

rocketraider

They do. But an annual emissions inspection generates that much more revenue for the state/nation.

No one can convince me the EPA isn't more about money than anything. Same with the new FERC standards the utility companies have to deal with. Before, they were just guidelines. Now FERC has fining authority if a utility isn't "in compliance".

And any time a fine is attached to a statute, you can bet your *** raising revenue is a big part of the plan.

'Course if I were a government wonk, I'd probably do whatever it took to perpetuate my job too.

Mark71

Hmm.... I know they don't require a dyno test here, only a "two-speed test" for cars from 1981 to 1995. Here's how they describe that:
The source is: http://www.dmv.de.gov/services/vehic...missions.shtml

Anyhow, I talked with that friend of mine today. He said it passes Penna. inspection with just a sniff test. Because he's got decent, 3 way cats, that allows it to pass. Then again, Pennsylvania does inspections at private garages, so if you have enough money to grease the shop owner's palms - supposedly you can get a diesel military tank to pass.

Is it possible that decent, modern cats eliminate the need for the EGR system, etc. in order to pass???

joe_padavano

Which has exactly NOTHING to do with Deleware...

Don't confuse the law with what you may or may not be able to get away with. The visual inspection may or may not be required and the specific test shop may or may not know (or care) enough to fail you if parts are missing. Here in VA a local shop was pretty lax and would often pass non-complying cars. Apparently they got caught because their license was suspended for a while then they got VERY strict on inspections. You may get lucky or may not.

As for EGR, the purpose of EGR is to reduce NOx emissions. It is only active at part throttle cruise. Depending on the specific test conditions in your state, the EGR may never even be activated during the test (thus the usual need for a visual inspection in addition to a tailpipe sniff test). Not all cars needed EGR to meet EPA requirements. My wife's 1990 Civic, for example, does not use EGR on 49 state cars. It DOES use a three-way catalyst.

Ironically, most of the emissions equipment that people feel they MUST rip off of cars isn't even active at wide open throttle. As an example, on the 1980s GM cars with the CCC system, the secondaries on the Qjet are purely mechanical and not connected to the computer. The evaporative canister system does nothing at W.O.T. The EGR is not active at W.O.T. The A.I.R. system is using about 1 HP at W.O.T. An aftermarket high-flow catalyst provides no more restriction than an equivalent piece of straight pipe. The EFE system isn't active after the car warms up. Unfortunately, few people take the time to understand how and why these systems work and usually end up making the car run worse by removing them.

Also keep in mind that the "pass" levels for tailpipe tests are dirtier than the EPA limits for when the specific car was new to allow for wear and tear as the car ages. If you have a well-tuned motor without all the factory equipment but with a new three way catalyst, it MAY pass the sniff test at the one or two specific test points. If you state requires a visual test, however, failure to have the required equipment in place for that year and model will result in failure.

Redog

OK if you buddy lives in Philadelphia or it's counties he's full of ****. The only emissions testing that car would need is a visual check to see if the emissions stuff is still there. There is no snift test for that car. If he knows the guy at the shop, the car will pass with no problems. The newest cutoff for cars in PA is 1983 for the dyno test.

How is the car titled now? In PA we have "Classic" (15 years or older) and "Antique" (25 years and older) the difference between the two is that an Antique can only be driven from sunrise to sunset. Both are limited to 5000 miles a year, due to NO EMSSIONS TESTING.

Do you have anything like that in DE? I know NJ has only "QQ" plates (all antique plates in NJ staart with "QQ" but can be personalized, in PA it's a ramdom plate

I would like to add that emissions testing in certain counties in PA is no joke. In and around Philly and Pittsburg and I think Erie, the only place that is more strict is California. My Alero actually has the California Emissions package on it

Clipperet

If they require original equipment, that's what it means. Harris County Texas (Houston) was a tough inspection on my 71 Chev pickup a few years back. Wound up going hunting for an inspection sign out in the country. The heat shield and riser from the exhaust manifold to the breather were home-made. Worked great but not original.

BlackGold

For you guys who live in emissions-test areas, how are diesels handled?

Years ago my county (in Michigan) was slated to start emissions testing. I was scared, because my daily driver at that time was an '82 Cutlass which was originally a diesel but had been converted to gas. (I never was clear if they had rebuilt the diesel engine for gas or simply dropped a gas engine in it.)

So I always wondered whether my car would be waived from testing (because the VIN says it's a diesel), easily pass testing (because the gas engine is cleaner than the diesel), or fail testing (because the original equipment has been removed). Does anyone know?

Mark71

DE only has two types of cars. Cars and antiques. Antiques have mileage limits, can only be driven in parades, must be 25 years or older, etc., etc. Cars are cars, daily driver or otherwise.

Now the insurance is quite different. I have "classic" insurance on my car, but it allows me to drive it at night and whatnot, just not as a daily driver. Still, my car is a car not an antique according to the State.

My Cutlass has to pass a single-speed test (as all cars built after '68). But they didn't even ask me to open the hood, much less put the car on a dyno. Heck, the first guy wanted to know "where the computer port at". I grinned until I realized he was serious. Then I laughed out loud.

MDchanic

There have only been emissions standards for diesels for the past few years (the ones with computer management).
Before that there were none, so earlier diesels were and are exempt, except perhaps in California, where "visible smoke" will fail you.

- Eric

Redog

No dyno, so at idle?

Lean out the carb

Mark71

Yeah, for my 71, there were two steps after I convinced the young guy that my car didn't even have an OBD I:

• Old dmv guy looks at tailpipes and says "gun it". I rev'ed it to 3K and then let it drop back to idle.
• Old dmv guy puts sniffer in tailpipe. 30 seconds later he says "have a nice day" and hands me a paper.

The old guy explained that he had to see that my tailpipes were actually connected to the engine (thus the first step). He said he was too old to be "bendin' down under the car". I guess people go to the sniff test with turndowns on and the dmv "sniffs" the disconnected tailpipes or something?

Anyway, throughout this time, the young guy chewed on a pen cap and performed the important task of scratching himself.

Ahh... the DMV experience.