Erik Andersen

Hi everyone. I'm looking for information on the manual boxes Oldsmobile was using from 1951 to 1959.
I'm upgrading my Lap the World 1950 88's drivetrain with componentry from around '57 or so but am struggling with what to do for a 4 speed manual gearbox and can't seem to work out what Olds was using during this period. 1950 (one year) had the 3 speed Caddy/Lasalle and I read online general commentary that the post 1950 Olds 3 spd manuals were basically rubbish but cant work out what specific box was actually used as the listings I've found just say '3-speed' so when and how did Olds go 4 spd.
Was the '51-'59 manual a specifically Olds made unit of some sort?
From what I can work out:

• Buick and Pontiac used a specifically Buick made 3 spd unit.
• Chev mainly used Saginaw boxes and/or was using Borg Warner T-85 3 speeds some with an O/D unit until the 4 spd Muncie in the early '60s.
• The Corvette in '57 or '58 started using an alloy case Borg Warner T-10 which is a good box but the alloy isn't strong and tends to flex over time or break if too much is put into it, and at least the Impala in '58 used a steel case T-10

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to end up with an out-of-make and out of decade gearbox which would be a shame so I'd like to just run this to ground first.
Cheers
Erik

Charlie Jones

The 51 to 64 Olds 3 speed was made by Buick , and was used in their Roadmaster model.
What you read about them being "complete rubbish" is , in fact, complete rubbish.
The Buick "Roadmaster" transmission is second in durability only to the Cadillac/ LaSalle trans and , in fact , shares some gears and the synchronizer with the Cad trans.
The biggest problem with the "Roadmaster" box is that it is a selector shift box and is difficult to adapt to floor shift . Hotrodders of days gone by used to use 37 or 38 Buick topshift cases with Olds internals and tail housings.

Olds didn't go to 4 speeds until 1962 , and then only in their F-85 line.
Olds experimented with Borg- Warner T-10' in 1963 in full size cars , but broke transmissions because of the tremendous torque of the 394 and the heavy weight of the car.
It was 1965 , when the Muncie became available , that the full size cars were finally offered with 4 speeds.

Erik Andersen

Thanks Charlie, that short explanation has trumped about a zillion hours of more or less unsuccessful surfing!



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Erik Andersen

Charlie, do you know if any of the Olds or B/O/P models in the '50s came with an O/D option?
I know that Chev had the BW R10 unit behind some Saginaws around that time, and I think Studebaker were also using them for a long time, including on a fairly powerful 1958 model - if I can find out if Olds had the option it would give me additional flexibility in the whole 'period-correct' thing.
Cheers
Erik

Charlie Jones

No , none of the Buick based transmissions was ever offered with overdrive .

Erik Andersen

Thanks Charlie, appreciated.

edzolz

I don't mean to be confrontational, but while at an Olds dealership in Harlan Iowa in summer of 1961, they had a new 61 bubbletop Olds. Fawn with Fawn, red, and white, interior that had a four speed Borg-Warner. I don't know if it was assembly line installed or not, but it had the slim factory four speed stick shifter. The window sticker did only say "manual transmission"

Charlie Jones

Not confrontational at all , Ed .
I've learned one thing in this hobby , "Never say never".
It's pretty well established that GM built "special" cars for their executives and others "who knew somebody" , often times in their R&D or prototype shops . These cars were liquidated through dealers after the execs were finished with them and had moved on to other cars.
Many of these cars were in the "rust belt" so most did not survive .
I do recall reading about one "frankencar " that did however . It was a 1957 Pontiac Bonneville with quad headlights (and other 1958 features like bucket seats ) that is alive and well in northern Wisconsin .
According to sales literature , and more importantly , the Master Parts Catalogs . Olds did not officially offer a 4 speed in their full size cars until 1965 . (unless you count the 1964 Jetstar 88 , which was a full size car with an F-85 driveline.)
What you saw was probably one of these "specials" that was being liquidated by the dealer.

Tedd Thompson

Here is a thread from the H.A.M.B. that I sometimes reference that has a lot of information... Not always totally correct but closer than most.... Tedd http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...summary.47584/

D. Yaros

My 1960 Olds S88 had a factory stick. Here is the info on this that I have been able to collect:

Olds (GM) 3-speed Manual Trans Specs

Either a Dearborn (Ford) or Buick product?
Ford 3.03 RAN/RAT (toploader) - 9-bolt cover
14 page detailed Dearborn Transmission Service Manual
Covers the Three Speed Transmissions used by GM on all the GM cars of the 60's and 70's era.
[http://carburetor-manual.com/dearbor...al-p-310.html]

Type Helical
Drive Rear wheel drive
No. Of Gears 3
Gear Ratios
1st 2.15 to 1
2nd 1.37 to 1
3rd 1 to 1 (Direct)
Reverse 2.28 to 1

Clutch Type Single plate dry disc
Clutch Size 11 inches


MUNCIE TRANSMISSION
The "SM" in the transmission's designation stands for Syncrho-Mesh, in the tradition of other GM gearboxes, though we have heard that it may refer to Stewart - Muncie, a merged transmission division of GM.

Engine Compatibility and Adaptability - GM
As the reader will conclude, the Chevrolet and General Motors SM420 will marry directly to a GM style bellhousing. This includes early (1955-1967) Chevrolet / GMC truck, Chevy car, Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac bellhousings.

1956-57 M13 B-0-P H-D 3-speed (6-bolt top cover)

1956-57 Heavy Duty 3-speed Standard Shift Transmission.
* Appears to be it? See http://www.pontiacsafari.com/L1Garag...ions/index.htm

Pontiac installed the Buick heavy duty 3-speed transmission in 1956-57. The heavy-duty trans is easily distinguished by it's large physical size and 6-bolt top cover. On a scale of 1-10, with "7" being a Muncie M22, the Heavy-Duty B-O-P selector is rated as an "8"...
The physical size of the sliding gear is ≈ 1", which is probably too big. The 1956-57 Pontiac H-D three-speed was stronger than any other 3-speed ever mass produced, with the exception of the Ford "Top Loader". This trans is nearly unbreakable, but the large size of the gears with their nearly straight-cut teeth, slows shifting @ rpm. I have used this trans behind a 450" JBP motor that produced 485 hp @ rpms. No problems, since the big stroker's power falls off at 5,100...


1958 and Later Heavy Duty 3-speed Standard Shift Transmission.

The Buick trans was superseded in 1958 by the B-W T85, which is not quite as strong. According to John Sawruk, the noise and/or gear whine of the old Buick brought about it's demise. B-W T85s have 22O helix-cut gears, making them quiet as a mouse. One of the differences between M22s and M20-21s is that the Muncie engineers went back to Buick thinking, removing the high-helix gears. So, if you've ever ridden in a car with an M22, they sound a lot like the old Buick trannies...


M13 B-W T85 H-D 3-speed

Charlie Jones

51-64 Olds used the heavy duty Buick transmission .
The Dearborn (Ford) transmission was used in the late sixties and early seventies as the "heavy duty" 3 speed transmission in Buick , Olds , and Pontiacs .

Erik Andersen

Thanks everyone. Sadly but unsurprisingly it looks like I am going to have to go out of decade or/and out of make to get me a 4 speed manual.
Cheers and thanks again,
Erik