I Got a Those Starter Right Before The Nationals Blues
June 28th, 2015, 03:50 PM
#1
I Got Those Starter Right Before The Nationals Blues
Almost finished my resto, and of course, a starting problem
Completely rebuilt 455, completely rebuilt original 455 hi compression starter, new positive cable, reused negative cable in excellent condition, new AGM restoration R71-S battery, all metal wirewheeled to bare where the grounds touch from the negative cable, and the firewall ground strap is installed.
When I first tried cranking it, it would turn over very slowly. After cleaning the battery posts (no change) I checked the battery with a voltmeter - was reading only 12.15 volts. Aha I said, and went and bought a new AGM compatible charger which charged the battery back up to 12.70 volts. Put it in, did the same as before - very slow cranking - and then it stopped doing even that - the solenoid just clicks now and no cranking at all. Rechecked the battery voltage and it had dropped slightly to 12.58. I noticed that when the solenoid clicks, the dome light dims just a tiny bit - hardly at all.
So I think to myself Aha (v.2) - it has to be the starter. So I spend a hour pulling the starter back out of the car, and take it to O'Reiily's for testing, and of course it checks out OK - I was so hoping it was going to be bad.
I noticed I had paint on both the the starter and engine block mounting surface - could this possibly be the problem? Any and all help will be sincerely appreciated.
Completely rebuilt 455, completely rebuilt original 455 hi compression starter, new positive cable, reused negative cable in excellent condition, new AGM restoration R71-S battery, all metal wirewheeled to bare where the grounds touch from the negative cable, and the firewall ground strap is installed.
When I first tried cranking it, it would turn over very slowly. After cleaning the battery posts (no change) I checked the battery with a voltmeter - was reading only 12.15 volts. Aha I said, and went and bought a new AGM compatible charger which charged the battery back up to 12.70 volts. Put it in, did the same as before - very slow cranking - and then it stopped doing even that - the solenoid just clicks now and no cranking at all. Rechecked the battery voltage and it had dropped slightly to 12.58. I noticed that when the solenoid clicks, the dome light dims just a tiny bit - hardly at all.
So I think to myself Aha (v.2) - it has to be the starter. So I spend a hour pulling the starter back out of the car, and take it to O'Reiily's for testing, and of course it checks out OK - I was so hoping it was going to be bad.
I noticed I had paint on both the the starter and engine block mounting surface - could this possibly be the problem? Any and all help will be sincerely appreciated.
Last edited by costpenn; June 28th, 2015 at 04:33 PM.
June 28th, 2015, 05:23 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dallas-Fort Worth
Posts: 3,115
Check the ground wires, especially the one from the battery to the drivers side head. I made a zero gauge ground for the 455, have the GM 4-field starter, excellent starter from GM, running a true 10.5 true compression in the 455. However, you cannot side a piece of paper between a header tube and the starter.The zero gauge ground fixed my "starter heat soak issue" with a 750 CCA battery.The ground on the back of the pass. side head goes to the firewall, although that grounds the dash, I believe its all connected, and there's one more to check on, but what do I know??
June 28th, 2015, 05:51 PM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brazil Indiana
Posts: 11,503
It would be best if the paint wasn't there but I don't think the paint will cause your problem. The bolt threads will be seated into the block real good and the bolt heads (even more so after the second install) will be lapped into the starter. Also the starter brace is grounding it. How did they test the starter? Just hook it up and see if it spins? Do they have a way to put a load on it when testing? If it is installed now I would try another battery first just because it is easy. I do not like AGM batteries but when new it is very rare for one to have a problem.
June 28th, 2015, 06:58 PM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,286
paint can interfere with power transfer. Do you have the support/ ground strap installed from starter to block? Easy test.
You can tell if the starter ground is bad with a voltmeter. While cranking, the voltage should be near-battery where entering the starter, then the current does all the starting work, then the juice leaves the starter to the engine block, then to the head, then to the battery (-) cable. then to battery (-) post. So, the voltage on the starter case should be slightly above the battery (-) terminal, like maybe one volt, or less, because those are all connected together, with no motor or power consuming components in that leg of the circuit.
If you put the voltmeter red lead on the starter case, black lead on battery (-) post, crank the starter, and the voltmeter reads up around 12v.... then the starter case is not gounded and the electrons can't leave to get back to the battery. Starter must be active [running or attempting to run] for this test to be valid. Obviously if no volts are sent to the starter then no voltage will be present on any of its parts.
You can tell if the starter ground is bad with a voltmeter. While cranking, the voltage should be near-battery where entering the starter, then the current does all the starting work, then the juice leaves the starter to the engine block, then to the head, then to the battery (-) cable. then to battery (-) post. So, the voltage on the starter case should be slightly above the battery (-) terminal, like maybe one volt, or less, because those are all connected together, with no motor or power consuming components in that leg of the circuit.
If you put the voltmeter red lead on the starter case, black lead on battery (-) post, crank the starter, and the voltmeter reads up around 12v.... then the starter case is not gounded and the electrons can't leave to get back to the battery. Starter must be active [running or attempting to run] for this test to be valid. Obviously if no volts are sent to the starter then no voltage will be present on any of its parts.
Last edited by Octania; June 28th, 2015 at 07:03 PM.
June 28th, 2015, 07:38 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 11,798
When the AGM battery in my Harley failed last year, the voltage read right but the voltage would drop like a rock when I hit the starter. It charged 'normally' and had a good reading, but just lost its ability to pass current. It was 5 years old so i replaced it. Started fine after that.
I also had a brand new AGM battery die in a similar way in just a week. They replaced it and that one lasted 5 years.
So, try a new battery and see what happens. Any way you can borrow one from another vehicle you have? OR, take the battery to the store and have them load test it (better option).
Hope you get up an running soon!
I also had a brand new AGM battery die in a similar way in just a week. They replaced it and that one lasted 5 years.
So, try a new battery and see what happens. Any way you can borrow one from another vehicle you have? OR, take the battery to the store and have them load test it (better option).
Hope you get up an running soon!
June 29th, 2015, 12:55 AM
#7
'87 Delta 88 Royale
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Margate, England
Posts: 2,513
paint can interfere with power transfer. Do you have the support/ ground strap installed from starter to block? Easy test.
You can tell if the starter ground is bad with a voltmeter. While cranking, the voltage should be near-battery where entering the starter, then the current does all the starting work, then the juice leaves the starter to the engine block, then to the head, then to the battery (-) cable. then to battery (-) post. So, the voltage on the starter case should be slightly above the battery (-) terminal, like maybe one volt, or less, because those are all connected together, with no motor or power consuming components in that leg of the circuit.
You can tell if the starter ground is bad with a voltmeter. While cranking, the voltage should be near-battery where entering the starter, then the current does all the starting work, then the juice leaves the starter to the engine block, then to the head, then to the battery (-) cable. then to battery (-) post. So, the voltage on the starter case should be slightly above the battery (-) terminal, like maybe one volt, or less, because those are all connected together, with no motor or power consuming components in that leg of the circuit.
To check out the battery simply hooking up high quality jumper cables to a car that has a big battery and no starting issues will do it. If it makes no difference you have a bad starter or connection somewhere, or possibly a broken wire.
I fixed a Tractor with starting problems by bypassing one of the starter cables that was bad a few years back. It had been on a 150 mile round trip to the dealers in Austin, Tx three time without having the fault diagnosed.
If the starter springs into life then the battery is bad.
Roger.
June 29th, 2015, 10:11 AM
#8
Thanks for the replies. I thought about it overnight and the fact that the motor itself doesn't seem to be kicking in, along with the lights not dimming at all when the solenoid clicks makes me think it is the starter. I found my old battery out of this car took and is holding a 12.6V charge, so I can also use that to test the battery if it is not the starter.
So, this morning go buy a rebuilt one to test the theory. Get it home, spend some time to make it look right, and go to install. The repro positive batt cable comes with the lug where it attaches to the solenoid straight, and we all know it has to be at a 90 to lay back across the starter and not have the cable near the block. When I first bent it, it seemed soft, so as I was changing out the starter I tried to be careful and not put any undue strain on it. Unfortunately, this morning it bent back a little so I gently bent it to the right position. As soon as I started lifting it into place, the lug broke at the bend. I think I remember when buying the repos before that the lug was made of copper and pre-bent. Called Fusick and have another being next day aired to me. Pic is of after trying to see if I could change out just the lug - decided against it.
Damn.
So, this morning go buy a rebuilt one to test the theory. Get it home, spend some time to make it look right, and go to install. The repro positive batt cable comes with the lug where it attaches to the solenoid straight, and we all know it has to be at a 90 to lay back across the starter and not have the cable near the block. When I first bent it, it seemed soft, so as I was changing out the starter I tried to be careful and not put any undue strain on it. Unfortunately, this morning it bent back a little so I gently bent it to the right position. As soon as I started lifting it into place, the lug broke at the bend. I think I remember when buying the repos before that the lug was made of copper and pre-bent. Called Fusick and have another being next day aired to me. Pic is of after trying to see if I could change out just the lug - decided against it.
Damn.
Last edited by costpenn; June 29th, 2015 at 10:16 AM.
June 29th, 2015, 04:29 PM
#9
The (problem) answer? The starter. Fixed the starter cable after all with a new solid copper lug end crimped down hard onto the repo cable. Installed it and the engine cranks away at a very nice clip.
On that starter, I had a guy in the Olds club refer me to the company that did it. They are supposedly experts in the older U.S. applications, and charged me 175.00 to do it. I had a bad feeling when I dropped it off starting with them telling me it was going to be two months to get done since they were so busy - yet when I got there they were watching T.V. with at least 10 cats laying around. - oh the smell - and it actually took three months. Best part is they got snippy when they called to say it was ready and my money wasn't there within 3 days. The point of this whining is when something looks like butt, it will probably perform the same way.
Will be on the outlook for a correct date coded 1108339 starter. Mine is the right P/N, but wrong date code.
On that starter, I had a guy in the Olds club refer me to the company that did it. They are supposedly experts in the older U.S. applications, and charged me 175.00 to do it. I had a bad feeling when I dropped it off starting with them telling me it was going to be two months to get done since they were so busy - yet when I got there they were watching T.V. with at least 10 cats laying around. - oh the smell - and it actually took three months. Best part is they got snippy when they called to say it was ready and my money wasn't there within 3 days. The point of this whining is when something looks like butt, it will probably perform the same way.
Will be on the outlook for a correct date coded 1108339 starter. Mine is the right P/N, but wrong date code.
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