Alright guys, more help with the '61 Olds 98.

The GEN light has been on for a few years. I have been through a couple voltage regulators. I have also had the generator rebuilt.
The most recent issue has been sluggish, stalling driving and sporadic sputtering. It ended up being a bad regulator because when I replaced it, it ran perfectly fine.

The issue I have now is that the GEN light is ALWAYS on when the car is on, fully lit, and I measure the voltage at the battery and I get upwards of 15 or more volts and climbing.
Could this be the voltage regulator? Could it be the wrong amperage? My vehicle without factory air utilizes the 35 ampere regulator. I believe this is what I have in there but would it hurt to buy a new one and swap it out to see if the GEN light goes out?

Any other ideas on the GEN light being on all the time?

Thanks guys!

 

Chances are the regulator is bad if you're getting 15+ volts.

 

X2

 

Just another possibility in case it turns out not to be an electrical problem:

In my ‘66’s, the warning (idiot) lights are separated in their assembly by a foam gasket. 55+ years later, foam in my 98 had worn out and caused a “light leak” from the other bulbs in the cluster which _appeared to be_ a gen light being on, but was really light bleeding over from another bulb.

Wishing you good luck on solving the gen light problem. Those can be frustrating.

Chris

 

Doubt it's bleed through with the regulator putting out 15v+.

 

Probably a regulator, but check all grounds. Make sure the reg is grounded and the genny is grounded to the reg. Since it has been overcharging be sure to monitor the water level in the battery. If it is low on water and the plates are not covered it may overcharge. There may also be a grounded field in the genny. If you take it apart and the fields test good, look where the through bolts go in the genny. They may be touching a field wire and grounding out.

 

Mine has been on veryyyyy faint (noticable at night) since i switched to a 80's vintage alternator when i got one for free off a buddy's firebird 15 years ago. At one point i hooked up a voltmeter and drove around, it seems to work OK.

This one has not made it on my list of MAW's yet!!

 

I haven’t swapped the regulator out yet, but it is on my little post-it note list to do. Hoping this solves the GEN light. I will keep you all posted.

 

Apparently this is an issue which has not been resolved. As indicated, you said you will keep this thread posted with updates. Evidently this issue remains?

 

That is correct. GEN light still on, switched to new VR, polarized them as well. Unless the issue lies on the actual panel the bulb is connected behind the dash, I really don’t know where else to look / how to find the root cause of the GEN light always on when engine is on.

 

So you originally said you had 15 VDC & climbing. You then replaced the VR w/ a new VR (based on this thread). In your other thread, you state you have a reading of 13.1 VDC. I suspect the VR needed to be replaced as voltage was reduced, but you have a GEN light which remains on continuously. First, I'd review the condition of each wire in the circuit as I explained in the other thread. Ensure you have a solid ground (bare metal to bare metal) at the VR mount location on the firewall. As stellar suggested in Post 6, it's possible you have a grounded field in the generator. Of course, it is still possible you didn't polarize the GEN via the VR correctly - it only takes to second to polarize (again).

 

I will start with polarizing, then tracing each wire, making sure the VR is ground properly at the firewall. I’ll start from scratch and see what I come up with. It just very unsettling seeing that light lit darn it!

 

Ensure you polarized correctly - pretty simple. Here's the URL link and dialog >>POLARIZING THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
If you notice in the other thread, I highlighted w/ arrows the two terminals to polarize your GEN via the VR.

EDIT: What you're doing is training the GEN to move voltage in the correct direction. What I do, is disconnect the wires from the VR. Then reconnect the wires, then polarize.

 

Not 100% sure on a 61, but 63s and I think 62s have a generator lamp relay. Time to get out your FACTORY wiring diagram and CSM.

 

I just got back inside from the garage, it's a drizzly 40 degree evening here in MN.
The battery has been disconnected. I disconnected all three wires from the VR. I removed the VR from the firewall. I made sure there was good metal to metal contact between the VR and the firewall. I tighten the VR up to the firewall. I then reconnected all three wires, left to right (looking head on at the VR), BATT, ARM, FIELD. Once all were connected properly, I connected the battery. I used a 12 gauge wire to jump the BATT and the ARM terminals. Rubbed the wire slightly and it sparked nicely. Started the Olds, and she was running rough, then evened out. Even lower voltage than before; with the idle settled down, and nothing else on in the vehicle, 12.4 volts was the highest, even after upping the RPM's. GEN light still on.

Do I completely replace the VR and start there? Could there be something going on with the fuse block and wiring near the ebrake pedal? I am at a loss. This GEN light has plagued me for years.....

 

You did the polarization correctly, but I'm confused I think. You stated in your 1st post you have been through a couple VRs. Voltage reading at some point 15VDC & climbing. Then you say "...you haven't swapped the regulator out yet..." Then, you created another thread regarding generator wire and you state the measured voltage is 13.1VDC. Now, you're saying voltage reads 12.4VDC. It sounds to me you've already replaced the VR several times & your measured voltage is quite inconsistent. You stated in your 1st post you had the GEN rebuilt.

I'm not sure replacing the VR again is the logical place to start if you've replaced the VR 2-3 times (yeah, new ones can be bad ones). The fact you had the GEN rebuilt makes me suspect the GEN is OK. Folks who know how to rebuild a GEN &/or ALT generally know exactly what they're doing. This isn't to say a bolt inside hasn't come loose and is shorting as Stellar suggested. It does sorta speak to the notion you're getting inconsistent voltage measurements, you've replaced the VR 2-3 times and the GEN light is on continuously. These symptoms could be indicative of a short.

You stated in your (alternator wire) thread:
Those chunks of wire look like they were burnt? As in toasty? As in having been placed in a toaster oven type of burnt? How did they get that way? A large surge or a continual large surge over an extended period of time - they certainly were not installed with chunks of burnt wire with thin insulation. I suggested in your other thread you replace all bad wires, clean everything. I have no idea what your fuse box looks like and how it might be involved.

What I am "very" confused about however is this. Have you not reviewed the color wiring diagram in your CSM and traced the wires? I mentioned the CSM in your other thread. Rocketraider mentions possibility of a generator lamp relay. You have one in the wiring diagram? Have you checked it?

 

My service manual has zero colors in it, not does it indicate colors. I’ll have to double check the page with all the spaghetti. Looks that way anyway. I’ll spend some time on it and see what I can find. I’ll post a picture of my schematic. Confusing to me….

 

See if you can validate or invalidate if there is a generator lamp relay located on any of the wires emanating from the generator as suggested by rocketraider (post 14). I'd assume it most likely is indicated with the term relay, but maybe not. At any rate, you need to focus in on the generator portion of the schematic. You can take another better picture (would help) showing the generator and wires to/from generator. I think the VR is directly below the generator in the wiring diagram? See if you can see/validate where the generator lamp relay or any wire leading a generator lamp light/bulb (which would reside on the dash panel). Odd yours is B&W - I would have suspected a color wiring diagram.

 

Colored would have been nice! I don’t see a relay lamp anywhere. Below are some pics. Red line is the path from GEN to lamp on dash. And then I circled the 9amp fuses clustered together, gen light is one of them, along with oil pressure lamp, backup lights, park brake lamp.

 

Excellent. The other gauges work in that circuit correct? So, the fuse is not a candidate or all the lamps/lights would be affected. Any chance you can post your image without the red line? And, without the word text.

 

Before you replaced the generator with a rebuilt generator - did the GEN light illuminate on the dash panel? Or, did the GEN light begin to illuminate after you installed the rebuilt GEN? Or, at any time prior to you installing a new VR did the GEN lamp illuminate? Or, did the GEN light illuminate after you replaced the VR?

 

The other gauges work in that cluster, correct.
the GEN light came on years ago, before I had the generator rebuilt. It seemed to have come on after I had the Olds at a shop, where they were actually trying to figure out why that light was on. The mechanic told me about some wires near the fuse block going through the firewall that needed attention. I checked under there and things looked ok. May be worth checking again, in depth. That’s the only thing I can think of. New VR have done nothing to get rid of the light. I’ve been through about 4 of them over the years.

Here are clearer pics. I really appreciate the help and guidance here Vintage Chief.

 

It was stated the gen light is always on when engine is running. Is the gen light on when the key is in the run position and engine is not running?

 

Will these help?

 

Yes, the light is on when in the run position and engine is off.

 

I will take a look at those thanks for that!

 

Stellar - So glad you're stepping in. Thank You. Eggydrummer...Stellar is an authority on GEN + VR charging systems; albeit, be mindful to address his questions as he'll be faster w/ more knowledge to address your issue. I was just about to suggest where I suspect the issue resides, don't let my question(s) influence your direction for troubleshooting over those of Stellar.

With that said, I "suspect" the issue resides w/ the GEN warning lamp wire (itself). There are several reasons I suspect this, but one reason is you've had this issue prior to installing a rebuilt GEN & after replacement of several VRs. Add to it statements from mechanics regarding wiring. The GEN warning lamp wire is probably being earthed somewhere along its length. To test: Locate that wire, turn on the ignition and disconnect the GEN warning light wire. If the GEN warning lamp stays on, the wire is earthing somewhere. Inspect that wire for chafing/rubbing against any bodywork (chassis, firewall, metal dash panel, etc.) & repair it with insulating tape. If the wire is completely broken or badly chafed it needs replacement.

Good Luck!

 

Mike - If you elect to move forward w/ the test I suggested & Stellar thinks there may exist the possibility the GEN warning lamp wire is suspect to being earthed, you'll need to check that wire along its length for chafing/rubbing, being broken, etc. I can't validate the color of the wires provided by Supernice88 but that wire "appears" brown (not sure).

 

Chief the black and white diagram has the wire colors labeled.

 

 

Note there are x3 wires which exit the connector directly prior to feeding the dash lamp cluster - Brown, Yellow, Orange. Trace the Brown wire.

 

You could perform the operation a couple ways: (1) Using a test light you can probe the Brown wire anywhere along its path; (or) you can measure for continuity &/or resistance w/ a VOM/DMM along the Brown wire. If the Brown wire does not demonstrate continuity from one end to the other end, there's an open in the wire or a short to Earth (causing the lamp to remain on continuously). If you measure a large resistance (there should be none, or a minimum of ~0.5Ohms) then the wire is meeting resistance. In both cases there's the likelihood the Brown wire is gaining ground via another pathway, rubbing, chafing, etc.

 

It would be super sweet if you found that brown wire was the issue. If the wire isn't the issue & you can validate the wire itself is not the issue, & you can validate the GEN + VR are charging the battery w/o issue and those components are working: (1) you learn to live w/ the GEN light remaining ON or (2) you pull the circuit board for a review. The board foil is shorted, worn, broken etc. There are two separate threads of similar nature regarding a bad circuit board.

There have been others, these are two of the most recent I can recall:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...se-box-177367/
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...repair-175084/

 

Vintage, I am going to give it another go tomorrow. I have to cut electrical tape on bunches of original wiring and do some following of the brown wire, upside down and on my back on the floor of the Olds 😂 I will see where that brown wire leads, and I’ll test for continuity. Hoping that’s the issue.

In the meantime, I have 3 VRs that I’ve tried today; ones that may not have been flashed or ones that have. All three make the car run like crap, shakey, and low voltage, about 12 maybe, while running. One of them boosts it to almost 15 volts with poor, stuttering conditions. I believe all three are finished as can be. I will get another one, a 35 amp, like the car requires, to at least get it running properly.

I sure do appreciate all the help and follow up. I will report back here tomorrow!

 

Shaking & running like crap, stuttering etc. are signs of a bad tune-up - fuel mixture delivery & timing. The charging system is independent of those running engine performance conditions. Tune-up the engine: New spark plugs, new contact points, new distributor cap, new condenser & new distributor rotor & new distributor coil wire. When is the last time the spark plug wires were changed?

Convince yourself the GEN +VR are operating the charging system - e.g. supplying voltage to the battery & managing the voltage delivery to the electrical devices in the car. As stellar mentioned, generators average ~13 VDC at curb idle. You need to validate the GEN is charging the battery. With all lights & electrical devices off, take the engine RPM to ~1500RPM and measure voltage at the battery. Do this several times. What voltage do you read at the battery while increasing RPM? Perform the same test, while performing the same test, turn on the headlights (minimum) and other electrical devices. Take readings (again) at the battery. What voltage do you read at the battery?

The number one place to suspect issues in electrical on a vehicle is the ground side of the electrical system. It's vital you have crispy clean connections from the (-) battery terminal post to the engine block. You need crispy clean connections from the engine block to the frame & chassis with a solidly connected ground strap/wire. You need same clean/crisp ground strap/wire from engine to firewall where the dash panel obtains its ground and where the VR is mounted to the firewall. All of the connections need to be spotless and clean - free from corrosion/oxidation. Wire brush clean all wire terminal ends, battery terminal ends, the battery posts themselves. You need solid metal>metal. Wire brush/Sand the metal on the block, chassis, frame, firewall - anywhere the ground attaches to the vehicle. The ground side of the electrical circuit is the most important part of the circuitry.

 

Funny thing is, before I started digging in to all this electrical again just a couple days ago, I have fired up with olds a few times over the past few chillier months in the garage. Pumped the pedal a few times, cranked her, and she started right up, Idled perfectly. No stuttering, no shaking. It wasn't until I tried re-flashing the different voltage regulators I had on hand that it started to run very, very poorly. I think I fried the one remaining good one of the 3 I had on hand. This has happened in the past; the vehicle would act funky and act as if it wasn't getting enough fuel, stuttering and barely keeping 12 volts while driving. Turns out, after replacing the VR with a brand new one, it ran like a top, as if nothing ever happened.

I am going to search for a new VR tomorrow, locally. I'll let ya know how it turns out after I get it installed, and after I check the charging system under the conditions you mentioned, I will attack the brown wire to the GEN lamp, and test that as well. I am seriously thinking that the cluster and panel the GEN lamp attaches to may have some issue going on. But I will troubleshoot tomorrow, Norm.

 

The wiring diagrams show a fuse protecting the BAT wire right next to the voltage regulator, independent of the main fuse block. If I had to guess the fuse would be located under the hood. Has this fuse been checked?

 

I forgot all about that fuse - good observation for calling it out. I recall noticing the fuse in the blow-up image of the VR then went to locate it in the wiring diagram (itself) & couldn't find it. I think I then discounted it when I saw the fuse for the GEN warning lamp on the fuse panel, but I was also trying to validate the other four wires on that wire. I might revisit this fuse for a better look. It's the wire located on the VR "B" terminal between the IGN SW & the battery via the junction block. From the blow-up it appears to 1st feed directly to the VR CO (Cut Out) relay. Might explain why so many VRs are failing? My mind resembles mashed potatoes at the moment.

 

 

I'd say your numbers look good from the perspective of putting out plenty of voltage to recharge the battery - almost too good, but they look good. With an Alternator (not Generator) you shouldn't expect to see voltage >15VDC. That fuse displayed in the CSM wiring diagrams (which is supposed to exist) could exist anywhere on that red wire to be honest. Wiring diagram doesn't show location, only a point of reference relative to other wire(s) wiring.

Does the GEN warning lamp remain at the same brightness both when you turn the IGN SW to ON but prior to starting the car?
Does the GEN warning lamp remain at the same brightness when the car is started & running or does the GEN warning lamp change brightness depending on load of the vehicle i.e. while driving, increase in RPM or w/ other devices turned ON?