mdh157

Hello,

I may be going to look at a 1969 cutlass holiday coupe tonight (non-post) that the owner claims has a matching numbers 455 and hurst 4 speed. Can anyone tell me where to look for the vin stamps on the engine and trans? Also, I thought that the 455 was only available in the hurst olds in '69 - am I wrong? I'm guessing that the 4 speed in the car is actually a muncie m-20 or m-21 with a hurst shifter, but I haven't seen the car yet.

Any places that are rust problems areas that I need to look for?

Thanks .......mdh

Jamesbo

You are correct. The 455 only came in the 69 H/O. Either he is a B.S. artist or misinformed. The vin tag is on the drivers side dash board up close to the window. It is best viewed from outside the car. The body plate [cowl tag] is on the drivers side fire wall above the break booster.

As far as rust. Take a telescoping mirror and a fridge magnet with ya. Check for rust and/or Bondo under the front fenders behind the wheel well and the rear quarters. Lot os these got crossed up with utiltiy poles and or trees and have been patched in the rear quarters.

Post your vin info and cowl tag info here and we'll tell ya what she is/was

The vin should begin 336879

Good luck. I just love 69's

wmachine

That's an easy one. Except for the Hurst Olds, there are no 455 engines in F85/Cutlass/442s in 1969. It cannot be "numbers matching". Before you even go, ask him "what numbers match what?".

Olds64

Even if it isn't numbers matching it could still be a cool car. Keep us posted.

mdh157

will do...it's on ebay right now. Here's the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6405

car is close by but I saw a similar car last year in the same area that had a 4 spd but still had the column shifter knot (you know, the nub that the shifter attaches to) on it, so I know that car was non-original. there is a slight chance of it being the same car. If I go after talknig to him, I'll post the vin and body tag info.

Jamesbo

336879 E Should be the beginning of the vin.

From the pics, [without seeing the car up close and personal]

I'd say

1] There is rust under the vinyl top
2] There is rust under the pinch weld at the rear window
3] I don't see dual exhaust.
4] There is likely rust in the lower corners of the trunk
5] "project" is an understatement.

But hey "Ya gotta kiss alot of frogs to meet a Prince." You'll learn something from looking at a variety of cars.

Oldsmaniac

I checked out the link and the car is a roach..... I mean no disrespect and I am good at buying Roaches. The seller obviously does not know Oldsmobiles. You already pointed out that the **** for column shift is still on the steering column. The car needs a lot and providing the frame, floors trunk floor etc are solid it would be a nice project. If you want originality or correctness that will take a lot more with this one.

bccan

mdh - That car is a money pit right up there w/ the worst I've seen. Rear body & deck panels shot, probably will need a roof too. Cowl may be same situation. Could look @ it as a parts car but I would be very careful even then. IF it is a 455, that is worth $400-500, M20 maybe $300, M21 add $50-100. Posi rear end (I would carefully check that) 400-800 depending on carrier type & condition. You might have to get lucky to even part it out & end up w/ a few hundred dollars profit to show for that rotten hulk sitting in your yard.

That is my opinion taking a very quick glance at the ebay pics, take it FWIW.

Jamesbo

How about a little bet here. I'll bet a dollar to a dounut it isn't a posi but only a 12 bolt cover

mdh157

wow - you guys aren't very forgiving! Kidding, of course - I want the most objective opinions I can get from those who know these cars. I also noticed that the alternator is on the left side, and i've seen restored 69 cutlasses with them on the right...anyone know which is correct for the year?

hmm.....perhaps I should just cave in and buy the matching numbers '69 caprice L48 350/M-20 that a guy I know is selling.....of course, there is also a "numbers matching" '72 cutlass 350-4v/3 spd floor shift manual convertible near phila that I was looking into as well.

Jamesbo

The alternator side isn't a matter of which year it's A/C or no A/C

mdh157

I'll try to go look at it if the owner is available.....i'm really curious now. any way to tell a posi by looking at it - any markings, etc?

alsalp

I believe 442.com has reference of how to identify a posi. There stamped letter codes on the axle tube. Bring a wire brush.

bccan

I'm w/ Jamesbo on the rear end, low probability it is even posi(Anti-Spin ltd slip). Quick, though not entirely accurate test is to jack up rear end, try spinning a wheel. It will take much effort to spin one if posi(driveshaft not turning), open diff will spin w/ some drag. In Neutral (driveshaft free to spin) turn one wheel, if opposite wheel spins opposite direction, probably open diff, if opposite side spins same direction, possibly posi. You could try to find the axle code on the right tube but my guess is it will be too rusty to find easily. You still have to look it up & hope that it is the year/style axle you think it is for the code to be accurate. Only sure bet is to pull the cover & see if it is posi & what ratio it is.

The more I look @ the car, the more I reccommend you stay away. If it was a real #'s matching 442 or "W" car, it might be worth taking on, but unless you have low standards or very good skills for bodywork/resto you are looking @ a money pit that I think you may not realize the extent of. '69 has limited body part availability just for starters. The drivetrain is somewhat generic (to Olds) & could be salvaged for another project but you would be paying a premium for stuff you could probably find elsewhere, in known origin & condition.

My general rule of thumb is buy the best body you are willing/able to afford & the drivetrain can be assembled easily from scratch if need be. If you had a body shop go through that car to a good driver/local car show standard you would be hard pressed to get out of it for $15k, add refurbish drivetrain - $6-10k, interior $3-5k. All those price are optimistic or w/ you providing some of the grunt & dirty work. You would be so upside down in it, why do that to yourself for a Plain Jane Cutlass that would end up being worth $10-12k done to a decent standard.

Again - JMO.

Jamesbo

X 2 I'm with bccan

Rust is the killer on any car unless you're a body man. Even if you're a bodyman you'd be better off flipping burgers at McDonald's by the hour.

But I think you should look at as many cars as you can BEFORE you purchase. See just this morning you've learned alot you didn't know.

Keep us posted on your ventures, we'd be happy to help you in any way we can.

mdh157

well, I am not a bodyman - I have a great bodyman who will do good work cheap but I'd rather keep it to a minimum and rebuild a drivetrain if necessary. that being said, what do you guys think of this? Would satisfy both my desire for a stick shift and a ragtop at the same time

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972-...item335e03591c

Oldsmaniac

The 72 is a conv and looks somewhat better than the 69 but needs a lot as well, interior and who knows how much if any rot is in the floors and trunk and possibly frame as it is a conv. The shifter and boot appears to be aftermarket. Has this one been converted as well? You gotta check things out in person and then decide.

mdh157

I spoke to the owner of the '72 - told me it's a 3 spd and it is original. Perhaps the **** and bot were changed at some point...???? I assume if he is correct then it's a M-15. I don't mind donig the work ,just looking for a decent driver, not a show car. I have 2 small kids who love to ride in the 'old car', so a show car is too much work right now. I'm going to try and look at it in abt 2 weeks when I get back (going away tomorrow and the car is 2 hrs from me) if it is still available and I'll post the results. I owned 2 67 cutlass ragtops before that had rot in the back corner of the floors because the drain holes below the conv top were clogged and never cleaned out. This car, if the undercarriage looks decent, could be a nice plain jane cruiser, and an oddball if it is original - cannot be too many 3 spd flr shift cars around.

bccan

That 72 Cutlass is a MUCH better prospect! Price would be reasonable if there is not a lot of rot, ie floor & trunk good, minimal rust on quarters & fender bottoms. Door bottoms good. You would have to personally inspect it as there are only a few non detailed pics of car.

Body lines look good, uniform though worn paint - at least on the right side.

Engine bay looks nice.

Rear deck, rear panel, cowl rust? Need to look at these in person, up close.

Any old collision damage that might be problematic?

"Manual Transmission" - 3 or 4 speed? Original to car or retrofitted? If retro - done well?

Looks like a decent car & depending on the condition might be a decent prospect. Weigh the price vs condition and inspect in person or maybe hire an appraiser in the area to inspect it so you're not jumping in blind. Appraisal would cost $125-250 in most cases & could prove to be worth it - To confirm good condition, or bad.

wmachine

Huh? No such thing as a M-15 that I know of.
Though '71, the *M14* was the heavy duty 3-spd manual trans with a Hurst floor shifter.
In '72, the heavy duty 3-speed manual was dropped and the there was option W39, which was simply the Hurst floor shifter on the standard 3-speed manual trans.
Not that it was a bad thing, and behind a 350 would fine. And yes, very unusual!

mdh157

just got off the phone with him......and he says:

very nice floors and trunk, some rust on the bottom of the qtrs and the backside of the fenders, never had any work done before, car came from the fact with a 3 spd man on the column and owner converted it to a flr shift, but the tranny is original. I didn't want to hear that.

Jamesbo

He could have done it right.

Oldsmaniac

Still worth checking out, make sure to inspect frame.

mdh157

true, it could be done right - just a personal thing to have it flr shifted from the factory. I always thought of column shift manuals as the wimpiest cars around power-wise - prob because they are usually the most basic non-option cars. The car does have a K coded 350 ,which is a 4bbl - 180 net horse, i think -(assuming it is the correct motor) so it should be able to get out of its own way. Also very easy to convert to an M-20 if I want to.