Big Todd

I have a 67 Cutlass with a 330 and I'm putting in a Pertronix Ignitor 1181, and my problem is everything is fine as far as putting that in but I changed the coil too, I put in the flamethrower coil, it just chugs and won't even run unless I pump the crap out of it the whole time and even then it runs crappy, so I did there test to check the volts at the coil and I'm only getting like 5 volts roughly not 12 which is what it is supposed to be in order for it to work, the instructions say I need to get rid of the ignition coil resistor, but here is my problem, where is it? if someone knows or someone has done this swap before, please let me know, Thanks!
Todd

MDchanic

GM ignition resistor is a length of resistance wire inside the wiring harness, from the fusebox to the coil.
It's the wire itself.
You can't use the wire that GM had going to the coil because that wire IS the resistor.

You need to run a new wire from the ignition hot to the coil.
Not 100% sure about the '67, but the fusebox should have a spade connector plug labeled "IGN," which is the simplest way to do it.
You could also grab the pink wire out of the ignition switch.

- Eric

Big Todd

so I go to the ignition switch unhook the pink wire and hook a new wire into where the pink wire was and run it to the positive on the flamethrower coil?

Bluevista

The wire to the coil has to be hot when cranking and in the run position or the car will only try to start when you let the key off to the run position if at all, very weird feeling. The Pertronix instructions aren't real clear.
After I called the Summit tech line and we figured out what I did wrong (only had it hooked to a running position hot) I went into the bundle from the ignition switch with my probe circuit tester and found a wire that was hot in both key positions, not sure if it was pink? It was a heavy gauge wire on mine, cut the insulation off a small section and wrapped and soldered the wire for the coil on and taped it back up. I just taped off the end of the unused resistor wire and tucked it out of the way.
Make sure to check your timing after it's running.

MDchanic

Yes, it's the PINK wire (GM calls it IGN1) from the switch to the fuse box.
There is also an orange wire with black stripe (called IGN3), which is the one that turns off when you crank, in order to reduce the load on the battery.

And, No, you do not unhook the pink wire, because if you do, you will lose gauges, back up lights, signal lights, power windows, power seat, and cruise control. You tap into the pink wire, like BlueVista said, carefully removing insulation, wrap and solder a wire for your coil, and carefully tape up again, so that there is no chance of the tape unravelling and allowing the connection to contact ground or other wires, which would cause your car to immediately stop running, wherever you were, and possibly cause a dash fire as well.

- Eric

Big Todd

ok so then on the ignition coil I have two wires that are hooked together on the same connector, one is to the resistor and the other is to the starter? do I clip one of those or leave it hooked up too?
Thanks

Run to Rund

There are two power feed wires at one of the coil terminals (+), yellow/black which goes to the starter solenoid and is 12 V while cranking. The pink wire at the coil (the two wires are usually crimped into one space lug) is the resistor wire during "run" at the ignition switch. The orange lead for the transmission rheostat on the accelerator pivot at the firewall is hot 12V cranking and running; it is what I use because I have a manual trans and don't need it for the rheostat. I don't know if it is heavy enough to run both. Check the fuse block; you need 12V start and run, no power when the key is off, obviously.

Big Todd

So do I clip the resistor wire at the coil?

MDchanic

So long as the resistor wire is connected at its other end to the same circuit that you're drawing your power from (ie: the same fuse if a fused circuit, or the same feed if not), you do not need to disconnect it. Electricity, as they say, takes the path of least resistance, so it will be as though it is not even there.

If it is connected to a different circuit, then you do need to disconnect it, because if the ignition circuit is on and the other circuit is off (or has blown its fuse), you will back-feed current to the other circuit through the resistor wire, which could cause weird things to happen.

The wire from the starter solenoid can stay connected, because all it does is feed straight 12v to the coil when cranking. Since the coil already has 12v from the new wire you've run, it won't affect anything.

Or, you could disconnect them both. Doesn't matter.

- Eric

Big Todd

Allright, thanks alot for answering my questions right away! Appreciate it! There is one thing that I don't get though, It says don't leave your key on for very long with the engine not running as it will ruin the pertronix unit, so why is it that when your car is running that it does't? the key is still on and feeding power to the coil right?

MDchanic

Wrong. (sorry.)

In the classic points system (which you replaced), the points open and close four times with every engine revolution, and are open for about 1/3 of the time (120° +/-). That gives the coil time to cool down before it has to work again. There are actually very specific engineering considerations to how much time to feed current to the coil to achieve maximum magnetic field saturation, but at the same time not feed it so much as to overheat it - that's why you set your dwell angle to a specific number (30°).
If you leave the switch on at a time when the points happen to be closed, current runs through the coil constantly, and will overheat and damage it.

My guess would be that the Pertronix system, which is actually a fairly high current amplifier in a very small package, and which therefore needs to shed a lot of heat while it works, assumes a similar duty cycle while it is in use, with a certain amount of down time to allow heat to transfer out. Its design probably has it passing current unless the reluctor sends a signal to interrupt it, thus, if it is left on without the distributor turning, it can make more heat than it can release and overheat.

- Eric

Big Todd

all right is everyone ready for the next string of stupid questions haha, now the dumb thing still won't start, it chugs like it wants to but it won't, I put the distibutor back in the same way but I didn't mark it as far as twisting it. In another words I can twist the base of it a good 5 inches, is that how you set the timing? I'm dumb when it comes to engines, I should have just waited untill winter and took it to the mechanic and had him do it, now it's in the garage and won't start so I can't take it in Anyways how do I know where to clamp the base at? I don't have a timing light

oldsconv

I just installed a Pertronix and it specifically said to leave the resistor wire or ballast resistor in place. Now that is for a stock coil. Maybe with an aftermarket coil, you need the full 12V. Yes - it is a cloth covered wire with built in resistance.

MDchanic

LOL !!

They're not dumb questions, but you sure chose to tackle a big job for a guy who doesn't know anything! That's a good trait - you learn faster that way.

You really do need a timing light. They can often be found at yard sales and swap meets for $5 to $20. The kind with the dial that moves the timing scale would let you do more things with less effort.

That being said, you don't have one, so you've got to improvise.

What you need to know is that by turning the distributor, you are changing the ignition timing, which is to say, you are making the spark occur either earlier or later (that's "Advanced" or "Retarded") in the cycle. The spark needs to be timed so that the flame front that it creates reaches its maximum point about 20° after the piston hits the top of its arc - Too late and the flame will chase the piston down the cylinder, instead of pushing it down, Too early and the flame will resist the piston as it comes UP toward top dead center, robbing power and making extra heat. Too early will also cause areas of mixture far away from the spark plug to get too hot as the pressure increases too fast and start burning on their own, which is called pre-ignition, and which can destroy an engine.

So you want it timed right.

First question: Did you take the distributor out?

Second question: If you did, are you sure that you put it in with the gear at the bottom and the rotor at the top in the same position they were in before?

Third question: Do the instructions tell you how to "static time" the engine?
If they do, then do what they say.

If they don't, then get a rough timing adjustment by doing the following:

• Put a wrench on the end of the crank and rotate the engine (easier if all the plugs are out) to the place the specifications tell you the timing should be at idle (probably 12° Before Top Dead Center).
• Look at where the rotor is pointing. It needs to be pointing roughly to the #1 wire. Follow the wire from the #1 cylinder to see which one this is.
• If the rotor is pointing to a different wire, then you will need to remove the distributor and put it in again with the gear one tooth away and check again. Keep doing this until you've got the rotor pointing to the right cylinder.
• Now, attach a test light (a SMALL one, like a little indicator lamp, NOT a headlight bulb, or you could burn up the Pertronix unit) to the coil Positive terminal and to Ground.
• Turn on the Ignition switch.
• Rotate the distributor and see where the light just goes from On to Off.
• Set the distributor there.
• Turn the ignition Off.

This should give you a rough adjustment, within a few degrees, close enough to time by ear.

• Next, start the engine and see how it runs.
• SLOWLY rotate the distributor, listening to the engine.
• Move it in the direction that makes the engine sound better until it doesn't sound quite as good, then go back just a bit.
• Tighten it up just a little, so that you can still move it if you use some effort.
• Go drive the car. Accelerate hard.
• If it pings, stop the car, get out, move the distributor slightly in the direction back toward where it didn't sound as good, then try again.
• You should have it as far advanced as you can without having it ping.
• Tighten the distributor.

When you're done, go out and get a timing light, and readjust it the right way.


- Eric

Big Todd

ok, so I changed the plug wires, plugs are fine but I pulled one of the wires apart last night, anyways so I turn the engine over untill the slash is in the middle of the timing tab I believe the tab say 10 at the top and 0 at the bottom so I put it right in the middle, then I pulled the dist. cap and the rotor was pointing at the back instead of at the #1 so I pulled it and made it point at #1 then reassembled cap so the pointer was pointing at the #1 wire which is also pointing at the #1 cylinder, The #1 cylinder is also at the top of the stroke. That all should be right, right? well the S.O.B still will not start, actually worse than before, at least before it would chug, now all it will do is if I put it all the way to the floor flames come out the carb? How do I know the pertronix unit is even working? I have full voltage going to the new coil, I'm frustrated and am apparently not doing something right

MDchanic

Ooops.

I didn't mention to be sure whether you were on compression stroke or exhaust stroke.

It's hard to distill lots of things you'd do without thinking about them because of years of experience.

It sounds like you had cylinder #1 at TDC of its exhaust stroke.
The engine needs to be turned around one full revolution and the distributor reset back to more or less where it was . You'd ordinarily do this by observing the valves opening and closing, or by putting a finger over the spark plug hole and feeling for compression during the compression stroke.
In your case, now you know that the engine is one revolution out of phase when the rotor is pointing to #1, so get it to point to #1, then rotate it 360° back to the 10° mark, and set the rotor to point to #1 again, then see if you can static time it with a small light.

Sorry again for missing a step.

- Eric

NorTown Olds

GOOD job guys! wAY to lay it out -- I've learned a ton!! Been meaning to put this set up on one of my cars too! Now I know the finer points to doing it.

Big Todd

Well That was my problem I had it on the exhaust stroke, so I changed it, did the timing light test and it started right up, then I adjusted the timing to inbetween the 5 and 10 since it is supposed to be 7.5 It runs awesome, oh before I started it I sandblasted all the plugs, the electrodes looked in good shape but they were all oily and gunky, I don't know why, it ran good before, but anyway it started right up, I can't begin to tell you how happy I was, It was only a 3 day endeavor haha, oh well I guess I learned a ton thanks to you guys! I ordered some E-3 plugs from summit, has anyone used them before? Do I need a wider gap on those than normal? I haven't got them yet, they're in route. I am still having a carb problem too, Edelbrock carb, manual choke, starts fine, drive someplace, shut off, starts fine again, drive to the store, go in for 15 minutes, come out and I have to hold it all the way to the floor to start it, it has done that since I bought it earlier this year, I suppose the float is sticking? Thanks Guys, Todd

TripDeuces

Another way to do this is by using a relay. Use the resistor wire as the trigger for the relay. You can get the 12v feed from the positive side of the battery or if your 67 has the positive feed terminal/horn relay on the fenderwell you can get it off that. (My 66 has it but not sure on a 67) I did this on my 65 Riviera and it works well. GL

71supreme

This is now probably the best thread ever on timing. I've pulled the distributor on my car a few times, and always done the same basic procedure. (tdc once, if no go, try again) The test light part is my favorite, I had not heard of that method.

I have bookmarked this thread for when I do the pertronix shift in the spring (or so). Thanks guys!