mr mojo

1970 olds delta 88 custom 455.
I have a fair amount of play in my steering. Went to mechanic, put it on lift and he tells me i need to replace everything. Pitman arm, center link, idler arm, inner and outer tie rod ends. He then goes on to tell me that if i don't, the ball joints will just pop off and i will lose all control and possibly die. KEEP READING...
Now i like to replace all the parts i can, but tracking down a pitman arm proved very difficult for this car. So i called Kanter auto and spoke with them. They told me that i should never have to replace the pitman arm as it is a NON WEAR ITEM. This got me thinking. I agree with Kanter! I mean how can this part wear out???? KEEP READING....
I did manage to track down an entire front end kit from USA PARTS. But it is over $800 bucks!!! I can order some moog parts from ROCK AUTO and all the other parts (minus the pitman arm which only seems to be available from USA PARTS in the complete kit) from KANTER for probably like $350. Now that means to get the pitman arm that i probably don't need i have to spend an extra $400 bucks????!!!!!!
What do you guys think?? I really don't know who or what to believe. Please help!!!
Do you think that the car is a death trap and the ball joints will just fail?? I can live with the steering play. The car only has 68,000 miles and in my opinion it seems the rubber bushings have shrunk a bit thus leading to the play. Do ball joints pop out if the bushings shrink??? Thanks in advance.

Lady72nRob71

I also heard pitman arms are non-wear items, as long as the bolts stay tight.
The center link is a wear item, along with tie rod ends.
Will the above make the ball joints pop off? Not if he means the ones on the spindles. I have seen loose tie rod ends break off but if you get under the car and push and pull on them looseness would be evident.

Do the tires have strange wear patterns? Grab the top edges of the front tires and shake with all your strength. If you feel clunking and movement, then you do have some bad wear.

Getting Moog parts is a smart move. A little more $ but higher quality. Rockauto is the place to get em.
I still think you need a second opinion by a better mech. At 68k miles, no parts should be wore that much if the car has had reasonable care.
If he actually used the word "die", I would definetly get a new mechanic.

firefrost gold

is he calling the drag link that goes the the frame the pitman arm ?? That will were out. ??

rocketraider

That's the idler arm.

Basically anything under there that can pivot can wear out. But get another opinion. Times are slow and he may just be drumming up work.

Depends on the way the pitman arm is made. If the pivot stud is on the center link, it should theoretically not wear out. If stud is on the pitman arm itself I can see where it could wear.

If your control arm bushings are worn the car will steer poorly and make correct alignment difficult. Are they squeaking, as in metal-to-metal contact? If no metal contact, lubricate them with a little brake fluid and see if they quiet down.

Ball joints only pop out if they are extremely worn. The trouble there is by the time they get to that point they've usually damaged the control arm.

A 68k mile car would have had to have been really neglected to require replacing all the steering linkage.

RAMBOW

The guy may or may not be giving you the run around. Step into a mechanics shoes for a second. Guy shows up with a 40+ year old car with a problem that is most always caused by worn out components.

Before even troubleshooting, MANY mechanics might simply say the same thing this guy did- its all worn out you need to replace it all.

I front ends on all my old cars for peice of mind... weather it needs it or not. one reason for this is, i can rule out any bad front suspension or steering stuff when i have other problems because i know its all new and good.

Now if he's trying to scare you with the old ball joint will separate and kill you story...
That sounds more like he's giving you the runaround to make money- especially saying for you to get EVERYTHING... I'd rather him tell you which peices you really need and what you don't.

For instance, You can replace just the ball joints to solve that problem- or any of the peices individually if they were worn out, you dont' HAVE to replace everything- and more than likely EVERYTHING is not worn out.

Outter tie rods, balljoints & control arm bushings recieve the most wear- for that reason these are included in just about every basic front end rebuild kit.

idler arm, and inner tie rods are next up on the wear list, with the centerlink/drag link being probably the last peice i would replace if i had to. Pitman arm, unless it has a joint on it of some sort (some do) it is a non wear item, so unless it was hit & bent or reinstalled wrong at some point, they don't go bad.

draglink & centerlink are the same thing (different names for the same thign)- this is the peice that connects the pitman & idler arms to the tie rods.

anyway, thats my thoughts.

Nilsson

x2, replace it all and be done with it. From that point on you know what you have.

Jamesbo

X 3

You don't want to keep having to do front end realignments
and the piece of mind is worth it IMHO

Lady72nRob71

One other point is that after 40 years old, the rubber control arm bushings will have deteriorated through age regarless of low miles. If you replace those, might as well do tie rod ends and ball joints while it is all apart. The bushings themselves could be making your front end feel loose.

A second opinion is recommended though.

mr mojo

the pitman arm on this car is just a solid piece of metal. It is a flawless looking piece of metal. I just can't see how it would be possible for this to wear out. wear patterns on tires are completely normal. I agree with everyone who says to just replace it all, but the pitman arm is perfect! and that part alone will cost me almost 400 bucks. I don't have that much to spend right now. I could probably scrape up the money for everything else and i agree that these items should be replaced. But i would like to delay this spending for the moment. I just don't like how this guy is trying to scare me. I just don't see how these ball joints will just pop out and kill me. I was under the car with him when it was up on the lift and i could see how the bushings were shrunken. i did bring it to another mechanic when i first got the car and he seemed to think everything was totally normal with EVERYTHING. Even i thought this was a little strange. hence my visit to the current guy. Any more ideas???

Olds64

The only reason to replace the pitman arm would be if it is bent or damaged.

joe_padavano

Pitman arms come one of two ways, depending on the design of the car's steering linkage. Those that incorporate a ball joint in the end of the pitman arm that attaches to the center link ARE wear items - the ball can wear. Pitman arms that simply have a tapered hole and the ball fitting is in the end of the center link are NOT wear items unless the tapered hole is worn because the nut on the center link stud is loose. If your car's pitman arm does not have a ball fitting built into it, it is not a normal wear item which is why it is not commonly available.

lshlsh2

I would replace everything that needed replacing but get a second opinion is not a bad idea. Just because it is low miles does not mean things can't get worn out. If alot of those miles were around town and over rough roads. Or the driver liked to take curves a little to fast. that could wear out the steering a lot faster than normal.
Larry

MJAKS462

Or maybe it is all fine and as with me does not remember how cars handled back then. It is not like cars today . Old cars float on the road and steer with one finger.

mr mojo

ah yes that last comment, "steer with one finger" is precisely what the OTHER mechanic said. I even had him drive the car and he said all was normal. he even drove it with one finger!!!! i felt like it had too much play and was unsure of his comments. Thats why i went to the "this car is gonna kill you guy"

I just jacked up the car on both sides and got the whole front end up off the ground. moved the tires left and right. The main loose point i can observe is where the pitman arm meets the ball joint on the center link. it seems like there is some play there. it does seem like the bushing has shrunken and the ball is moving in its socket more freely. doesn't look like its gonna pop out. i cleaned away some excess grease with a paper towel to observe it better. there is some play. I just can't see that ball popping out of there.

svnt442

Be weary of loose joints.

When i was 18 on home on leave between basic training and AIT for Christmas/New years I had been out all night hot ******* around in my 76 Salon. I mean I was flogging it and driving like a stupid nut. I hadn't driven in 2 months and I wanted to get in all I could.

I drive home to the suburbs of Chicago from the city (about 35 miles) and as I was pulling into the parking spot at the appartmenyt my left outer tie rod dropped on the ground. The socket just fell off of the ball. I got LUCKY it didn't happen earlier in the ride or things could have gotten NASTY.

joe_padavano

There should be NO play in any of the ball joints/tie rod ends/center link/idler arm - PERIOD. On the other hand, a competent front end mechanic can individually look at each wear point and replace only those that are bad. In some cases (idler arm, for example) it's easy to replace just that part - I had to do that on my 62 last week. In other cases (ball joints and bushings, mainly) you MIGHTASWELL do them all at once. It IS possible to replace individual ball joints without pulling the springs, but there's a good chance that the rubber bushings in the control arms need to be replaced as well.

Finally, consider getting the steering box rebuilt, and have a quick ratio gearset put in at the same time.

mr mojo

So if the ball joint that is part of the center link is damaged(which i am now convinced) do i need to replace that pitman arm? The only way i can get a pitman arm is to spend another 400 bucks and order a complete kit from USA PARTS. This is my main question now. i can order everything else except the pitman arm through Kanter and Rock Auto and save a ton of money. I'll be honest i can't afford the entire package from USA but i can afford to replace everything else. its that damn pitman arm that i don't know what to do about. :-(

joe_padavano

Again, if the tapered studs are part of the center link (and they are for your car) then you do not normally need to replace the pitman arm. The only reason for replacing the pitman arm would be if the tapered stud from the center link was loose in the pitman arm and egged the hole. That is EXTREMELY unlikely, which is why pitman arms for this car are not readily available.

mr mojo

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate it. you guys are the best and never fail to answer my questions!

Lady72nRob71

If the center link feels loose, then perhaps it needs to be replaced. Chances are it was not greased routinely.
Check the tie rod ends the same way - push and pull on them feeling for looseness. They should pivot tightly, but there should not be any slop in them.

If the center link has all the ball joints, and the link is securely fastened tot he pitman arm, then the pitman arm should be fine and not in need of replacement.

If the center link fixes your steering issue, then perhaps main ball joints and control arm bushings can wait.

Most old car original power steering boxes will feel 'loose', as the were designed that way to be steered very easily.