The other thing I think is screwing me up is the "new zero". I'm trying to line it up on the original zero, thinking that since I popped the dist up i could reset it correctly. Should I be dropping it in with regard to the original zero, or the "new" zero?

 

You have to get #1 to top dead center on the compression stroke. I t doesn't matter where the rotor points on the cap. That will be your new #1.
After that, go through the firing order and you should be able to start it.

 

yeah, that came to me last night after I figured i needed to be done for the day. In that case then, do I even need to pay attention to where the mark on the balancer is, or should it just line up correctly once I'm TDC on compression #1?

 

When you get up to TDC on the compression stroke, your mark should be close to zero (before or after) depending on the cam you used.

 

Well, the cam was big enough to justify more converter but not big enough to create a vacuum issue. The "new zero" is roughly 10° BTDC according to the factory timing marker thing.

 

I do not understand what you mean by that.

 

When coming back from the assembly shop, we were told it had a new zero for timing..so when it's at "zero" for timing, the mark on the balancer is actually showing roughly 10° BTDC.

 

That sounds as if something is not quite right.

 

Check your harmonic balancer. The timing mark should align with the keyway in the center of the balancer.
If it's off substantially then your balancer may have slipped.

 

agreed, I had just taken it as he missed a tooth on the dist. Especially since he installed it 180° out and had the advance canister facing the wrong direction.

It was a brand new balancer when assembled. I have heard the new balancers are questionable, so I won't necessarily rule that out (meaning, they don't line up correctly even when new)

 

The cam has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with where TDC/timing marks occur. That’s determined by the timing tab and balancer.
Sorry but I’m having a difficult time understanding why there is such a lengthy discussion on performing such a simple task.

 

I'm getting hung up on the "new zero" vs factory zero on the timing tab. That being said, I've also come to recognize I need to get to TDC on Compression stroke on cyl. #1..and at that point the mark on the balancer would represent true 0.

Provided the wife doesn't make plans for me this weekend, thats on the agenda for Saturday. Especially now that I have to get the car out to get the interior for my old Dodge out of there (its currently blocked in by the Olds)

 

Update..

Went out Saturday and ended up just setting it as if it'd never run before. Had a minor scare as the last time I pulled the distributor out I apparently found a stray nut and it sat on the top of the block preventing the distributor from dropping completely in. I don't know how I did it, but I ran across it multiple times not knowing, but when I finally made a swiping motion to see if there was anything around the hole and it ended up coming into view. Once I got it out of the way the distributor plopped right in and it fired right up.

In the process of all this, I determined my Summit Holley was indeed bad (fuel was dripping out of where the linkage connected to the body) so I picked up one of the Jet 32002's. If I keep it long term, I'll end up probably having an original rebuilt..but this gets the car going so that I can address things like bodywork/exhaust/etc. I say that though, I'm struggling getting the throttle cable to hook up. For some reason, the throttle cable stud (whatever its called) has a really short shank before the slot for the clip and its not letting the factory grommet/bushing setup fit in there and be clipped. For now (at work) I've taken a spare grommet/bushing and cut them down so when I get home I'll see if its enough to squeeze on there.

I will say though, as little as it ran Saturday I didn't hear the whine that I'd heard before. I'm not too optimistic it wasn't a fluke, but hopefully that ended up being my vacuum issue all along.

 

Went out last night and tried to fit the cut grommet/bushing on. It was a tight squeeze, but I finally got that on with the clip and wired in the choke. At this point, unless Pops comes over during the week my goal is to fire it/time it/tune it and check that vacuum reading on Saturday. If its nice enough and everything goes smoothly (the latter being my bigger concern based on my history) I'll actually go see how drivability is with the new carb.

From there, if all goes well..maybe (hopefully) I can finally be done with the engine until dyno time.

 

Well, it's been a while since this has been updated......

In catching up, the above intake gasket replacement and new carburetor netted a positive gain in vacuum, however I also noticed that I evidently bumped the RTV upon install and there was a spot that you could stick something through between the block and intake. After that nightmare, I decided while it went in for the quarter panel repair, I'd have that shop replace the intake gasket. I picked it up on Good Friday, and while they did a pretty good job, they used the cork end gaskets which blew out almost immediately.

Last Wednesday I dropped it back off with a caulk sized tube of Ultra Black and made clear I did not want to have to do it again. I picked it up today and it runs like crap. The intake is sealed, no issues there..but I'm running with 5hg of vacuum. I bumped the timing up a little bit and was able to get around 8hg (didn't have the light hooked up) with the RPM at 1250 in idle. It seems to be slightly better, but I also know I need to keep working on resetting the carb and finding the new happy place for timing. I'm also going to need new plugs as the low vacuum has created issues with the power valve.

I don't think I can time/tune another 6hg in addition to what I've done so far, so at this point I'm coming to the realization that once more something was assembled incorrectly on this engine. The amount of frustration is immeasurable..but at the end of the day as long as nothing severe happens, its in much better shape than it was when I first got my hands on it. I'm weighing my options at this point, depending on just how much I can get back out of it whether I trailer it down there and run the risk of an unknown time frame/cost over an accusation, or just deal with it. I'm not racing it, but it'd be nice if it were right at least.

 

That sure doesn't sound right and you shouldn't have to put up with such a poor-running engine. You need to find a competent shop for a "one and done" solution, which I know is easier said than done these days. Do you have any local "Olds pals" who might be able to steer you in the right direction?

 

Did you ever do a compression test on it?

 

I have not, however I've got a list of things that I'd like to do..that being one. Ironically, after my last post I did a bit more tinkering and had it running pretty well aside from an off idle stumble. I got up to around 10-11hg of vacuum, however it's well over 20° of timing (disclaimer, I know that's not accurate as I didn't have a plug with me at work when I actually threw a light on it). The following day I went to run it out to my father-in-law so we could work on the paint (was already scheduled) and it was a pain to start and was surging a bit. However on the way home yesterday it not only fired right up, but ran pretty well.

I'm torn at this point in regards to..do I continue to work on it myself, or take it to yet another shop and have them tune it on the dyno. I'm all for the people that know what they're doing to work their magic, but the amount time the engine alone has spent in that setting and yet I'm still having issues makes me question a lot.

 

What do you want to hear ?

 

What do you mean? If you're asking in reference to the "torn what to do" aspect..the right answer is going to be take it down and have it tuned on the dyno. That way, they can dial everything in where and how it should be for optimal performance (not just power)

I'm also confused at the inconsistencies, but then again if it goes to be tuned, that should all work itself out as well. It just kinda hurts the pride a little when you're beat by the (seemingly) simple stuff

 

I don’t know if you’ve notice or not but everyone has given up on you.

you don’t listen to the most simple advice..you go down rabbit holes and never come out

you can’t tune 5 or 10” of vacuum into a motor….which you seem to think you can do. I asked you last year if you did a compression test when you were talking about the cam being out and a new tdc. Crap, that’s the first thing you could have done

 

I can start at the end and work backwards if you'd like..with the fact that I have tuned 5" of vacuum into it over the last 3 days. Do I expect to get much more? No. I'm leaning toward cam timing being an issue here, but the first thing I'm going to do is reset to where things were when I had my best readings and start pulling plugs to verify things are equal across the board.

Given up on me? You're still commenting though...

I've been on forums for long enough. While the KISS method is tried and true (and I've never argued that) I've seen enough instances where the common tried and true method of doing a job such as bleeding brakes becomes a point of contention because 8 different people have 8 different ways and the argument becomes about who's method is better rather than why the car has no brakes. So with that, these "rabbit holes" you speak of are simply different opinions based on similar experiences.

Regarding asking last year if I'd done a compression test, I'd guess that was around the time it was also pointed out that the turkey tray setup was notorious for vacuum leaks, to which I decided to go with the more obvious potential issue.

Vacuum leak/compression test/whatever...the major frustration at this point is I have a near 10k engine that should make ample vacuum, won't, and yet the professional shop and half of the concensus blame the cam, whereas the other half of the people I talk to say the cam should make ample vacuum.

 

Alright, so I went out after work/dinner to pull plugs and check compression. Off the rip, it appears my compression gauge is either at Dad's, or worse (was left in the trunk of the Dodge when he last used it and it's now gone)

I did manage to pull plugs though..

The thing to keep in mind is A. the vacuum issue creating faulty A/F mix due to the power valve..and B. I'm honestly not sure what the initial timing is set at right now. I had it out Saturday to clean the garage and considering how inconsistent it had been..both running and vacuum, I dug through the notes and figured I'd reset the timing to 18° which put me at 32° total timing. Issue being, the line or the light were all over the place..just can't tell which. Had I been thinking, I would've hooked to #6 wire to ensure it wasn't an interference thing..but I had other things on my mind at the time. With resetting it to 18°, it starts like it should, but it had around 8hg of vacuum. My plan (provided it doesn't rain) is to get it back out Friday afternoon and try to figure the timing discrepancy out. Once I know ignition timing is locked in, then I can work on making sure the carb is correct..and determining if my suspicion of valve/cam timing being the culprit.

 

Not for nothing but those are pretty cold plugs. Factory called for R44's that are difficult to find but R45's may be just the ticket. Continued good luck. The car looks great.

 

Really? I thought factory were 43S..to which I can't run the S due to it being too long

 

Correct, the plugs should be the R44S. From the 69 CSM. I don't recall them being longer or shorter for the resistor plug though.

 

I would stay with the R43. To my mind, it's better to go a step colder than a step hotter as long as your ignition has enough spark to keep 'em clean. FWIW, I think Adam sold me the last R44S in captivity a couple years back.

 

Interesting. I know it came from the assembly shop with 43S (top) but it was soon determined that they were being hit by the pistons so the suggestion was made to go to the 43 (bottom)

Then again though, the block was zero decked and it's got shim style head gaskets. As far as the ignition goes, it's factory points/coil/etc..just the distributor has been recurved. Even then though, I don't see that quite effecting the vacuum problem, though I'm ready for it to finally run to its potential..right now it just seems like somethings holding it back. I'm strongly considering the dyno tune more and more each day.. but at this point am trying to get a solid baseline to eliminate the obvious.

 

I’m interested in the part about the piston hitting the spark plug?

do you want us to crowd fund for a compression gauge?

 

No need to crowd fund for a gauge, now I'll take the crowd fund if it ends up needing torn down due to negligence during assembly.

The plugs were mysteriously being closed up, and once I switched to the shorter plugs..the problem went away. Now, it has been determined that the assembly shop did NOT degree the cam upon installation..so that opens up a whole new line of questioning.

Theres a strong part of me that just wants to tear it back down and go through it piece by piece. Again, it's hard to trust the "professionals" did anything correct on this engine at this point..but for the sake of keep the cart behind the horse, I'll grab a compression gauge and test it. I'll be shocked if there are any issues with compression, however at this point with everything that's been wrong..im not sure it'd surprise me.

 

He does have a good point ... a compression test could be pretty revealing.

 

I also am curious about the extended tip plugs hitting the pistons!

 

I was curious, so I had to check. It seems these are all the same length. R43S, R44S, 44S, and R45S. Not sure why you would get piston interference.
Taking a 2nd look, the R43 S IS a tad shorter, so there ya go. Back to good luck with it all.

 

agreed.. and I've never questioned that. Just started id be surprised to see anything odd with it, but then again...

 

the suffixes on AC plugs have to do with the length, thread size, etc of the plug. The number is just a heat range.

So if the number changes but the suffix doesn't they should be approximately the same size and depth into the combustion chamber.

44 plugs were the older version that did not have an extended center electrode. At some point they figured out that extending the electrode and porcelain further into the combustion chamber would improve flame travel and help keep the plug cleaner. So they added the S suffix which were extended center electrode plugs. ie. 44S.

As all the 330, 400, 425, 455 engines used the S plug, it is puzzling that the piston is hitting his plugs and closing them. As this is purely mechanical, either he has stock rods and crank but his piston dome height is unusually high. Or he has non-stock rods (perhaps crank) and/or pistons that mess up the height of the pistons. Or he had the deck and/or the heads machined so extensively that the non-stock pistons protrude into the combustion chamber. Clearly a not well thought out build.

 

Short answer..block was zero decked, running 425 rods (7") and forged Icon pistons (.040" over). Switching to the 43 from 43S has eliminated that problem.

 

Block was zero decked and bored .040" over (done to save the block). I am running the 7" 425 rods, and forged Icon pistons. The plugs were closing up, and when I switched to the 43 from the 43S, the problem went away.

 

they would never hit unless he has a massive dome up into the chamber…but hey, he knows best

 

There was an entire discussion last fall about this. While everyone (myself included) agreed that it shouldn't have made contact, changing plugs corrected the damage. Nobody ever presented a drop dead solution to my knowledge either.

Also, if you'd follow along instead of throwing snide remarks in...you would understand that I'm being up front that I don't know best..otherwise I probably wouldn't be here. Last I checked, forums were a place to come for help, not to compensate for your shortcomings.

 

Refresh my memory, what does "Zero decking" the block mean and how is it done ?