Help sealing exhaust manifolds/headers?
June 29th, 2016, 06:36 PM
#1
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Help sealing exhaust manifolds/headers?
This is a picture of the copper gaskets used with my stock exhaust manifolds. It appears they were leaking on the lower sides...the sides without bolts (bad design?).
I am putting headers on. I was going to order a new set of copper gaskets. What do I need to do to make sure the headers seal?
Thanks,
Andy
June 29th, 2016, 08:22 PM
#4
Hookers under Hood
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I like the graphite remflex gaskets for headers with iron heads myself, Coppercutlass would be a good member to ask here, he has run several types with alot of re & re experience with headers he would know what's better or best .
June 29th, 2016, 10:09 PM
#5
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I have an older set of Heddman Hedders (1990 era) and I use regular Fel-Pro exhaust manifold gaskets with no issues. In the past I have used Mr Gasket header gaskets with no issues, I just switched to the Fel Pros because they were easier to get at the local parts house and were much cheaper.
I think a lot depends upon the mounting flange on the headers. If it's thick and flat it should seal OK, but if it's thin and/or warped it can leak.
I think a lot depends upon the mounting flange on the headers. If it's thick and flat it should seal OK, but if it's thin and/or warped it can leak.
June 30th, 2016, 04:35 AM
#6
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Have you put a strait edge on the heads and manifolds to see if they are warped? I had a crack in my manifold I had welded, then had them milled to true them up. Even the manifold that didn't need welding was warped a bit. Machine shop in town cut mine for me for $30 each. I'm.using felpro manifold gaskets and a small bead of ultra copper around the ports
June 30th, 2016, 06:32 AM
#7
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From the factory, when the heads were cut and the manifolds were cut, and bolted together, this seal which was at roughly .003" or less in precision, galded, rusted, etc together for decades. and it warped together.
then you took it apart, at this part you have a lifetime of replacing gaskets and a nearly annual ritual of doing the same if you use headers.
Why?
on motors with the exhaust bolts in a line (your picture, SBC, windsor fords et al) the motor rocks against the exhaust every time you get on it, and use engine braking. Yes the exhaust for the most part moves with it, but it does not completely move with it. as a result, the upper or lower portion will eventually indent the top or bottom or both of the gasket, making it slightly thinner, and a few thou is all it takes. once the exhaust can leak - inaudible at first - it quickly erodes the material.
headers, due to the nature of the edges of the tubing on the INSIDE of the flange, encounter this situation far faster.
For example as I am about to do it again before vacation in a week, my 460 in my motorhome murders its gaskets within 2 years, or roughly 3000 miles. granted, its a monster engine in a 6 ton, 1 car garage stressing to unheard of limits, but I have found little that holds up other than gaskets with wire reinforcement inside.
in your case you might wanna try dead soft aluminum gaskets, but dunno if they can be had for olds.
also, olds engines are famous for backing out the exhaust bolts and from the factory, no longer available, were these metal tabs that you bent the edges over the hex head of the bolt to prevent them from turning....they would help a lot. wish I had em for my 460
then you took it apart, at this part you have a lifetime of replacing gaskets and a nearly annual ritual of doing the same if you use headers.
Why?
on motors with the exhaust bolts in a line (your picture, SBC, windsor fords et al) the motor rocks against the exhaust every time you get on it, and use engine braking. Yes the exhaust for the most part moves with it, but it does not completely move with it. as a result, the upper or lower portion will eventually indent the top or bottom or both of the gasket, making it slightly thinner, and a few thou is all it takes. once the exhaust can leak - inaudible at first - it quickly erodes the material.
headers, due to the nature of the edges of the tubing on the INSIDE of the flange, encounter this situation far faster.
For example as I am about to do it again before vacation in a week, my 460 in my motorhome murders its gaskets within 2 years, or roughly 3000 miles. granted, its a monster engine in a 6 ton, 1 car garage stressing to unheard of limits, but I have found little that holds up other than gaskets with wire reinforcement inside.
in your case you might wanna try dead soft aluminum gaskets, but dunno if they can be had for olds.
also, olds engines are famous for backing out the exhaust bolts and from the factory, no longer available, were these metal tabs that you bent the edges over the hex head of the bolt to prevent them from turning....they would help a lot. wish I had em for my 460
June 30th, 2016, 07:10 AM
#8
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From the factory, when the heads were cut and the manifolds were cut, and bolted together, this seal which was at roughly .003" or less in precision, galded, rusted, etc together for decades. and it warped together.
then you took it apart, at this part you have a lifetime of replacing gaskets and a nearly annual ritual of doing the same if you use headers.
Why?
on motors with the exhaust bolts in a line (your picture, SBC, windsor fords et al) the motor rocks against the exhaust every time you get on it, and use engine braking. Yes the exhaust for the most part moves with it, but it does not completely move with it. as a result, the upper or lower portion will eventually indent the top or bottom or both of the gasket, making it slightly thinner, and a few thou is all it takes. once the exhaust can leak - inaudible at first - it quickly erodes the material.
headers, due to the nature of the edges of the tubing on the INSIDE of the flange, encounter this situation far faster.
For example as I am about to do it again before vacation in a week, my 460 in my motorhome murders its gaskets within 2 years, or roughly 3000 miles. granted, its a monster engine in a 6 ton, 1 car garage stressing to unheard of limits, but I have found little that holds up other than gaskets with wire reinforcement inside.
in your case you might wanna try dead soft aluminum gaskets, but dunno if they can be had for olds.
also, olds engines are famous for backing out the exhaust bolts and from the factory, no longer available, were these metal tabs that you bent the edges over the hex head of the bolt to prevent them from turning....they would help a lot. wish I had em for my 460
then you took it apart, at this part you have a lifetime of replacing gaskets and a nearly annual ritual of doing the same if you use headers.
Why?
on motors with the exhaust bolts in a line (your picture, SBC, windsor fords et al) the motor rocks against the exhaust every time you get on it, and use engine braking. Yes the exhaust for the most part moves with it, but it does not completely move with it. as a result, the upper or lower portion will eventually indent the top or bottom or both of the gasket, making it slightly thinner, and a few thou is all it takes. once the exhaust can leak - inaudible at first - it quickly erodes the material.
headers, due to the nature of the edges of the tubing on the INSIDE of the flange, encounter this situation far faster.
For example as I am about to do it again before vacation in a week, my 460 in my motorhome murders its gaskets within 2 years, or roughly 3000 miles. granted, its a monster engine in a 6 ton, 1 car garage stressing to unheard of limits, but I have found little that holds up other than gaskets with wire reinforcement inside.
in your case you might wanna try dead soft aluminum gaskets, but dunno if they can be had for olds.
also, olds engines are famous for backing out the exhaust bolts and from the factory, no longer available, were these metal tabs that you bent the edges over the hex head of the bolt to prevent them from turning....they would help a lot. wish I had em for my 460
June 30th, 2016, 07:26 AM
#9
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Everybody sells them. The are the first thing to get thrown away if the manifolds ever have to come off. I hate them.
June 30th, 2016, 07:34 AM
#10
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Wow soft aluminum gaskets. No way will that help. Talk about gasket going bad that would be a perfect recipe. Ford and Oldsmobile are not similar.A Olds from the factory like the op posted didn't have gaskets for exhaust and didn't leak. Rocking of exhaust causing leaks bull snort in my opinion. I have never had a exhaust bolt back out on my Oldsmobile engines.
that 1 stray bolt kept the manifold from rocking in one direction as it could not 'pull outward' on the bolt side, but it could push inwards and as you can see, the motor started leaking exactly as described when the gasket thickness was altered.
This is not a new finding, its 50 year old settled matters, they behave as described. Always have, always will.
And I did a little poking and found that Percy's makes the possible fix AND they are available at advance auto parts for $30 - a little salty, but still.
In my example I cannot used these on my 460 as the 460 is designed in commercial applications to run cherry red from the overfueling, this intense heat would erode the aluminum around the irregular ports and deposit it nicely on a very expensive >8600lb certified Cat. But for a car, possibly a show car sunday only driver?
June 30th, 2016, 07:47 AM
#11
Hookers under Hood
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[QUOTE=quaddriver;932196]
then you took it apart, at this part you have a lifetime of replacing gaskets and a nearly annual ritual of doing the same if you use headers.
How long have you been stuck in the woods beside that hungry bear haha?
I've had the remflex gaskets on my olds headers for 3 years now, no leaks. Imagine that.
As Kenneth posted, no issues over the years. These guys have been running olds probably as long as you've been in the woods.
then you took it apart, at this part you have a lifetime of replacing gaskets and a nearly annual ritual of doing the same if you use headers.
How long have you been stuck in the woods beside that hungry bear haha?
I've had the remflex gaskets on my olds headers for 3 years now, no leaks. Imagine that.
As Kenneth posted, no issues over the years. These guys have been running olds probably as long as you've been in the woods.
June 30th, 2016, 08:13 AM
#12
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June 30th, 2016, 08:18 AM
#13
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June 30th, 2016, 08:23 AM
#14
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Just look at the carbon track. The issue in the OP's case was not the rocking of the manifold, it was the over tightening of the upper manifold bolt with relation to the others. In one picture it looks like there was one bolt loose in between exhaust posts as the black carbon mark is present there. The shiny copper color is where the manifold is actually sealing with the gasket.
June 30th, 2016, 08:26 AM
#15
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How long have you been stuck in the woods beside that hungry bear haha?
I've had the remflex gaskets on my olds headers for 3 years now, no leaks. Imagine that.
As Kenneth posted, no issues over the years. These guys have been running olds probably as long as you've been in the woods.
anyways, with iron manifolds, yes, they will seal better and rock less but I stand on my position re: headers. in fact, you know that the advertising point of remflex is that it rebounds and has a huge crush ratio to help eliminate exactly what I described?
I had remflex 3013 on the 460 but one side had had the bolts come a bit loose and she burned that sucker up like a cheap candle.
June 30th, 2016, 08:37 AM
#16
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Just look at the carbon track. The issue in the OP's case was not the rocking of the manifold, it was the over tightening of the upper manifold bolt with relation to the others. In one picture it looks like there was one bolt loose in between exhaust posts as the black carbon mark is present there. The shiny copper color is where the manifold is actually sealing with the gasket.
You do not get a more perfect example outside of the picture posted. It should be worth 1000 words. But like I said this has been a settled matter for well over the 5+ decades I have been alive - dont take my word for it, this is the future - just google it!
June 30th, 2016, 08:41 AM
#17
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promising are the washer style you bend down against the manifold and up against the bolt, but Id have to drill each one to clearance the header bolts AND at $3 each times 16....a bit steep for a maybe
June 30th, 2016, 08:43 AM
#18
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You might want to also look at the carbon track then consider which way the engine torques when you load it.
That's the driver's side manifold. The engine torques clockwise as viewed from the driver's seat (driver's side raises) under normal driving. By your rocking theory, that would force the bottom of the manifold TOWARDS the head, closing that gap. Unless the driver only drove around with the engine floored in reverse, that's an unlikely cause.
The real problem here was the use of gaskets with stock manifolds. As many have pointed out, the gaskets have compliance. Over torquing the top center bolt will compress the top of the gasket and open the bottom. With the factory metal-on-metal seal, there is no compliance to allow this.
That's the driver's side manifold. The engine torques clockwise as viewed from the driver's seat (driver's side raises) under normal driving. By your rocking theory, that would force the bottom of the manifold TOWARDS the head, closing that gap. Unless the driver only drove around with the engine floored in reverse, that's an unlikely cause.
The real problem here was the use of gaskets with stock manifolds. As many have pointed out, the gaskets have compliance. Over torquing the top center bolt will compress the top of the gasket and open the bottom. With the factory metal-on-metal seal, there is no compliance to allow this.
June 30th, 2016, 08:45 AM
#19
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There are plenty of locking bolts and locking set ups like Joe posted for manifolds and headers. The ones Joe posted are found in the complete gaskets kits also. I think I have seen them for all makes, just a pain when removing. Some older in-line 6s had a cup and cone washer set up that compensated for expansion and contraction and movement. When they are replaced by regular washers, the manifolds crack.
June 30th, 2016, 08:48 AM
#20
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I had problems sealing header gaskets until I used these:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...ake/oldsmobile
I also used these bolts and they work well:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...ake/oldsmobile
Don't use the Stage 8 fasteners, they're junk.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...ake/oldsmobile
I also used these bolts and they work well:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...ake/oldsmobile
Don't use the Stage 8 fasteners, they're junk.
June 30th, 2016, 09:04 AM
#21
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You might want to also look at the carbon track then consider which way the engine torques when you load it.
That's the driver's side manifold. The engine torques clockwise as viewed from the driver's seat (driver's side raises) under normal driving. By your rocking theory, that would force the bottom of the manifold TOWARDS the head, closing that gap. Unless the driver only drove around with the engine floored in reverse, that's an unlikely cause.
That's the driver's side manifold. The engine torques clockwise as viewed from the driver's seat (driver's side raises) under normal driving. By your rocking theory, that would force the bottom of the manifold TOWARDS the head, closing that gap. Unless the driver only drove around with the engine floored in reverse, that's an unlikely cause.
this is true, you can recut the exhaust side of the head and then the factory exhaust, but WHO ever does that? thats the only reason I stated that the seal is fine until you break it from the factory, then you have no choice but to use gaskets.
In the post after yours parts were referenced with header locks, Im not using percys but I am using some and they do help, it finally kept the motorsport/jba headers attached firmly to the EFI 5.0/302 but given the high mount of this in a truck and the forces involved with a truck, I still have gasket crush problems from the rock.
Keep in mind, header locks work only on STEEL header flanges. On IRON manifolds, well a good bolt in mush is no better than a bad bolt in mush. it can and WILL eat its way out on the locking surface.
June 30th, 2016, 09:31 AM
#22
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thanks for the responses...
So...for stock manifolds, if surfaces are flat the suggestion seems to be no gaskets. What about sealant?
Going forward, for headers...use gaskets? Sealant?
The best exhaust shop in our area uses copper gaskets with headers...fwiw.
Andy
So...for stock manifolds, if surfaces are flat the suggestion seems to be no gaskets. What about sealant?
Going forward, for headers...use gaskets? Sealant?
The best exhaust shop in our area uses copper gaskets with headers...fwiw.
Andy
June 30th, 2016, 09:34 AM
#23
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June 30th, 2016, 09:35 AM
#24
Hookers under Hood
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bought the house from grandma in 96 but been coming here for 44 years.
anyways, with iron manifolds, yes, they will seal better and rock less but I stand on my position re: headers. in fact, you know that the advertising point of remflex is that it rebounds and has a huge crush ratio to help eliminate exactly what I described?
I had remflex 3013 on the 460 but one side had had the bolts come a bit loose and she burned that sucker up like a cheap candle.
anyways, with iron manifolds, yes, they will seal better and rock less but I stand on my position re: headers. in fact, you know that the advertising point of remflex is that it rebounds and has a huge crush ratio to help eliminate exactly what I described?
I had remflex 3013 on the 460 but one side had had the bolts come a bit loose and she burned that sucker up like a cheap candle.
Dam now you got me all worried about the rockin' rebound deal, not to mentioned the cheap candle coming down off the package tray burnin' my back or worse, my bolt comin loose from all the rockin'. I tell ya' that would drive me nuts.
June 30th, 2016, 09:55 AM
#26
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The stock manifolds were designed to be installed without gaskets. Headers are not, so unfortunately you are stuck using gaskets. They will blow out eventually and you will have to periodically retighten the bolts. That's just life when running headers.
June 30th, 2016, 09:57 AM
#27
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Not that I am being contrary or anything, but read again what I wrote and look at the OP pics.
that 1 stray bolt kept the manifold from rocking in one direction as it could not 'pull outward' on the bolt side, but it could push inwards and as you can see, the motor started leaking exactly as described when the gasket thickness was altered.
This is not a new finding, its 50 year old settled matters, they behave as described. Always have, always will.
And I did a little poking and found that Percy's makes the possible fix AND they are available at advance auto parts for $30 - a little salty, but still.
In my example I cannot used these on my 460 as the 460 is designed in commercial applications to run cherry red from the overfueling, this intense heat would erode the aluminum around the irregular ports and deposit it nicely on a very expensive >8600lb certified Cat. But for a car, possibly a show car sunday only driver?
that 1 stray bolt kept the manifold from rocking in one direction as it could not 'pull outward' on the bolt side, but it could push inwards and as you can see, the motor started leaking exactly as described when the gasket thickness was altered.
This is not a new finding, its 50 year old settled matters, they behave as described. Always have, always will.
And I did a little poking and found that Percy's makes the possible fix AND they are available at advance auto parts for $30 - a little salty, but still.
In my example I cannot used these on my 460 as the 460 is designed in commercial applications to run cherry red from the overfueling, this intense heat would erode the aluminum around the irregular ports and deposit it nicely on a very expensive >8600lb certified Cat. But for a car, possibly a show car sunday only driver?
June 30th, 2016, 10:15 AM
#29
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this is true, you can recut the exhaust side of the head and then the factory exhaust, but WHO ever does that? thats the only reason I stated that the seal is fine until you break it from the factory, then you have no choice but to use gaskets.
In the post after yours parts were referenced with header locks, Im not using percys but I am using some and they do help, it finally kept the motorsport/jba headers attached firmly to the EFI 5.0/302 but given the high mount of this in a truck and the forces involved with a truck, I still have gasket crush problems from the rock.
Keep in mind, header locks work only on STEEL header flanges. On IRON manifolds, well a good bolt in mush is no better than a bad bolt in mush. it can and WILL eat its way out on the locking surface.
June 30th, 2016, 11:08 AM
#30
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Im sorry to hear that
Point of fact I do have a car with an oldsmobile engine in it, which was the sole reason I initially joined as I am working it as a show piece. I didnt realize it was a requirement..whew, avoided that one!
But of larger issue is I own my own shop and in the driveway ready to go at a moments notice and registered to me are 2 fords, 2 chevies, 1 olds, 1 buick, 1 VW and 1 Toyota which shows that I dont hate anyone. At least not that much.
if my bonafides are of concern, take heart that I have screwed together more engines in said shop than most people have ever touched. In fact, if I had my druthers I would only work at nothing more than rebuilding motors until retirement, except for a few mitigating factors:
1- no one rebuilds engines anymore,
2- anything worth rebuilding was crushed a few years back during CFC and 3- todays people value their I-phone more than their car.
(and I have grown to hate the smell of oil on my hands which poses challenges to inserting new piston/rod assemblies in the block)
If my ownership of olds motors are of concern, take heart that aside from a 69 f100 with a 390 my stepdad got me, my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th cars I ever purchased, in order, were oldsmobiles. Can I stay in the pool? ;-)
Do you have a car with a Oldsmobile engine in it?Seems you are into fords. Not that i don't like them. I have two ford trucks. I haven't had any leaks on them.
But of larger issue is I own my own shop and in the driveway ready to go at a moments notice and registered to me are 2 fords, 2 chevies, 1 olds, 1 buick, 1 VW and 1 Toyota which shows that I dont hate anyone. At least not that much.
if my bonafides are of concern, take heart that I have screwed together more engines in said shop than most people have ever touched. In fact, if I had my druthers I would only work at nothing more than rebuilding motors until retirement, except for a few mitigating factors:
1- no one rebuilds engines anymore,
2- anything worth rebuilding was crushed a few years back during CFC and 3- todays people value their I-phone more than their car.
(and I have grown to hate the smell of oil on my hands which poses challenges to inserting new piston/rod assemblies in the block)
If my ownership of olds motors are of concern, take heart that aside from a 69 f100 with a 390 my stepdad got me, my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th cars I ever purchased, in order, were oldsmobiles. Can I stay in the pool? ;-)
June 30th, 2016, 12:02 PM
#32
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June 30th, 2016, 12:15 PM
#33
Old(s) Fart
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June 30th, 2016, 01:13 PM
#35
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Im sorry to hear that
Point of fact I do have a car with an oldsmobile engine in it, which was the sole reason I initially joined as I am working it as a show piece. I didnt realize it was a requirement..whew, avoided that one!
But of larger issue is I own my own shop and in the driveway ready to go at a moments notice and registered to me are 2 fords, 2 chevies, 1 olds, 1 buick, 1 VW and 1 Toyota which shows that I dont hate anyone. At least not that much.
if my bonafides are of concern, take heart that I have screwed together more engines in said shop than most people have ever touched. In fact, if I had my druthers I would only work at nothing more than rebuilding motors until retirement, except for a few mitigating factors:
1- no one rebuilds engines anymore,
2- anything worth rebuilding was crushed a few years back during CFC and 3- todays people value their I-phone more than their car.
(and I have grown to hate the smell of oil on my hands which poses challenges to inserting new piston/rod assemblies in the block)
If my ownership of olds motors are of concern, take heart that aside from a 69 f100 with a 390 my stepdad got me, my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th cars I ever purchased, in order, were oldsmobiles. Can I stay in the pool? ;-)
Point of fact I do have a car with an oldsmobile engine in it, which was the sole reason I initially joined as I am working it as a show piece. I didnt realize it was a requirement..whew, avoided that one!
But of larger issue is I own my own shop and in the driveway ready to go at a moments notice and registered to me are 2 fords, 2 chevies, 1 olds, 1 buick, 1 VW and 1 Toyota which shows that I dont hate anyone. At least not that much.
if my bonafides are of concern, take heart that I have screwed together more engines in said shop than most people have ever touched. In fact, if I had my druthers I would only work at nothing more than rebuilding motors until retirement, except for a few mitigating factors:
1- no one rebuilds engines anymore,
2- anything worth rebuilding was crushed a few years back during CFC and 3- todays people value their I-phone more than their car.
(and I have grown to hate the smell of oil on my hands which poses challenges to inserting new piston/rod assemblies in the block)
If my ownership of olds motors are of concern, take heart that aside from a 69 f100 with a 390 my stepdad got me, my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th cars I ever purchased, in order, were oldsmobiles. Can I stay in the pool? ;-)
June 30th, 2016, 01:35 PM
#36
Hookers under Hood
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June 30th, 2016, 02:23 PM
#37
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Remflex
Another vote for Remflex. Have then on 2 of my header equipped & one of my manifold equipped cars with no leaks since installed. Avoid the temptation to over tighten & you will be leak free.
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