SeanMiller063

Looks like I'm in need of a waterpump mine is leeking quite a bit what do you guys have to say about belt vs eletric? Also need a power steering pump but thats for another thread

Fun71

If it is a street driven car, get a replacement belt driven water pump. Electric pumps are best suited for the drag strip.

Olds64

x2

Get yourself a new or rebuilt water pump from the auto parts store.

SeanMiller063

Electric* why do you guys say that? most of them now are rated for street also more and more Manufacturers are switching over to me it makes sense but I'm a noob, would you guys please explain a bit? Sorry if I'm asking to much

Olds64

You could always put an electric water pump on your car. It will be more expensive than a stock water pump though. Plus, if you buy a water pump from an auto parts store it will almost certainly have a warranty on it.

oldcutlass

There is nothing wrong with an electric water pump. Do what you feel comfortable with. You will also need an electric cooling fan.

MDchanic

You are looking to install an electric water pump, power steering pump, and, therefore, and electric cooling fan.

How much does your alternator put out? Or are you planning on installing another two alternators where the water pump and the power steering pump used to be?

- Eric

SeanMiller063

I'm not too worried about the draw on the alternator where as they do sell high output ones if need be and quite a few modern cars have those plus nav and stereo and ecus ect. And still work well supplying enough current

MDchanic

Okay.

A quick check shows a water pump drawing 8 amps and a standard F-rd cooling fan drawing 28A on Low and 40A on High, and I have no idea what a p/s pump would draw, but you're already up to 55A on a hot day, and stock alternators were generally 32A or 55A.

- Eric

SeanMiller063

I'll go out and the alternator tomorrow and make sure as well as do the math to ensure im within the proper range and if I have to buy an upgraded high output alternator I will when the time comes. I like a good challenge

coppercutlass

I run and electric water pump (drive) and dual electric fans with a stock alternator. It is a 3/4 ton high out out unit from a mid 80's gm truck but its one wire and fits. I drive my car to the track 120 mile round trip and around town all the time and it works great. never figured out how much draw it created but it works and has for many years.

Fwiw i had a proper fan and fan clutch and shroud. My current set up keeps the temps down slightly better and is worth a few tenths in the 1/4 mile. Many guys wont agree but thats just my experience.

Fwiw Im running a moroso water pump drive kit with a replacement motor. Buy the kit new and buy the replacement and run it vs whats provided and keep the one not in use in the glove box. 2 8mm nuts is all it takes to swap the electric motors. The replacements are actually much more heavy duty . Then for fans im running GM 9c1 caprice dual fans.

SeanMiller063

Coppercutlass thank you for the constructive reply!

Professur

I love people that ask for advice, then argue the advice.

Start from ... the factory put a belt driven pump on the car, and built the rest of the system around that detail. Flow rates and pressures, fluid and radiator capacity were calculated to keep the engine at operating temp through it's normal operating cycle. To change it, you have to reinvent the wheel. Was there any problem with the vehicle using the old system? Lack of flow while idling? Difficulty in obtaining a reliable replacement? No? Then what reason is there to change? Maybe you just WANT to go electric? Sure, why not. Well .. because you have to reinvent the wheel.

oldcutlass

With that logic, why even modify a car in the first place?

Professur

Because you want to .... knowing you'll have to reinvent the wheel.

coppercutlass

It's simple. The electric water pump flows more at idle that the stock one. The fans flow more at idle that the stock unit. Why. The spin at higher rpms. So where it's needed is where it counts. While driving they are just as good as stock if not slightly better imo from my experience. Kinda simple logic.

Fun71

I always find it amusing when folks are having overheating issues in the cooler parts of the country. I wonder what would happen if their vehicle were driving around here in Phoenix, with the AC on, in traffic, when it's 118ºF out? My car does that with no overheating issues using basically the factory setup (only mod is a 4 row radiator instead of the original 3 row). This leads me to think there is an issue somewhere in their system that could easily be remedied; it just takes identifying the problem area first.

MDchanic

Yes, but it's a dry heat.

- Eric

SeanMiller063

I suppose you are not completely in the wrong. However I never asked what exactly I should go with just what people had to say about "belt vs electric" (and then like the person i am tried to make points to validate where I wanted to go) that and yes I could have gone all stock replacements and most likely saved myself about $400 but if you want to talk about factory set ups in 1969 it was over priced to do an electric water pump and electric fans but I feel like if they could have they would have just like many manufacturers are doing so today... and yes reinventing the wheel is a good challenge as i posted before i like a good challenge from time to time and putting any aftermarket or preformance parts on a delta 88 is indeed one.

SeanMiller063

That is impressive.

Also thank everyone for their replies I appreciate both the for and against.

83hurstguy

Just to add to this, alternators don't put out their nameplate capacity at idle, it's more like 50% of nameplate. So if you end up with an electric fuel pump, big fans, electric water pump, etc. with a 55 amp draw, you likely want a 120-140 amp alternator. Powermaster should have output curves in their catalog.

It's relatively popular to put electric water pumps on newer street cars, have a brother that has ran one on his daily driver camaro for 10 years now without a failure. Runs ice cold too. They are expensive, but which is likely why the factory won't use them. Also makes running a lot of accessories challenging when you lose the center pulley. There's no doubt you can free up power, but you need good electric fans to keep a BBO cool.

joe_padavano

Actually, many factory cars are moving to electric coolant pumps now for the same reason that they are using electric PS and A/C compressors. The electric motor drive can be controlled to match demand, thus reducing parasitic load on the engine and increasing mileage (at least, for EPA rating purposes). BMW and Jaguar, among others, now use electric coolant pumps.

I'll also point out that increasing pump throughput isn't necessarily going to improve cooling. It takes a finite amount of time to transfer the heat from the coolant to the air in a given radiator. Increasing pump speed and flow rate can often cause coolant to pass through the radiator too quickly, resulting in lack of cooling. The radiator size, water pump flow rate, and other elements of the cooling system need to be matched for best performance.

MDchanic

No, Joe. You know that's not true.

We discussed it here.

FlokKooler mentions it here.

- Eric

joe_padavano

My point was that one of the arguments above for an electric pump was that pump flow wasn't related to engine speed. My point was that this may not be a benefit. For example, say you are running at freeway speeds, then get off the freeway into traffic. At lower RPMs, the engine probably isn't generating as much heat, so it's probably better to have the hot coolant stay resident in the radiator longer. A belt-drive pump does this automatically. An electric pump would need a controller with the proper programming to do it.

MDchanic

I would agree that one of the virtues of the mechanical pump is that is speed (and therefore its power draw) is automatically coupled to the amount of heat that the engine is generating.

If you are running an electric pump full speed at idle, though, as you indicated, all you will do is cool down the engine and be pushing through the bypass hose and against a closed thermostat, which will help nothing, and probably use more power than pumping through an open thermostat (though I am not an expert on hydraulic pumps, and may be mistaken about the extra power usage).

- Eric

VC455

When I added an electric pump, I put a Meziere in the lower hose. I broke the impeller off the water pump shaft and reinstalled the water pump.

Ergo, I can still use the factory belt drive for all the engine-mounted accessories.

It has worked well for 10 years.

83hurstguy

Sorry Joe, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Faster moving fluid will transfer more heat, especially if you have more turbulence in the tubes. It's a function of the internal tube film coefficient, which has inputs of Reynolds number and Nusselt number. The actual bulk heat transfer capability has nothing to do with time unless you have some reason you are trying to control radiator exit temperature, and there's no reason to consider that here.

EMP Stewart has a pretty good tech section on their website. One of the sections on radiator design is here: http://stewartcomponents.com/index.p...ormation_id=13

SeanMiller063

Alright again thank you everyone for your replies both for and against. I ended up with a CSR electric water pump made in the USA I've read just as many good reviews as meziere hopefully it will be as good I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'll do a write up of everything I can in my build thread in the eighty-eight section

joe_padavano

If the coolant were not flowing, eventually there would be zero heat transfer. Obviously flow rate (which has a time component) matters. Here's a paper on automotive radiator design that has the thermodynamics formulas. Note that eventually, time (in the form of flow rate) is included.

Here's a NASA paper on designing a closed loop cooling system for lunar use that also demonstrates that flow rate (time) is important.

83hurstguy

I worded it poorly earlier, as flow velocity does have the time element included. Neither of those papers support slow coolant flow at idle... The first is classical heat transfer equations; velocity is an input for Reynolds number, which is an input to Nusselt number, which is an input to film coefficient. The NASA paper is interesting, but phase change evaporative cooling isn't how you want the car radiator to work.

VC455

As 86hurstguy accurately stated, when the Nusselt number increases (greater flow velocity) the film coefficient becomes more favorable, not less favorable. Therefore the heat transfer rate increases with flow rate.

I believe the myth of coolant flowing too fast to cool the engine came from high speed water pump cavitation fooling people into thinking that the water was flowing through the radiator too fast to cool. Cavitation occurs when the coolant is near its boiling point and the pump impeller is turning very fast. During cavitation, the pump impeller spins inside a bubble of water vapor, the flow rate falls drastically, and the radiator fails to cool because of the low flow rate.

SeanMiller063

Alright guys I did end up with an electric pump and have a question. Well two. How should i plumb in the heater corr hose a T on the outlet? And what about the one coming down from the manifold?

oddball

Run the heater return to the radiator. Or send the water pump back to be modified to add an inlet for the heater return. Or find a radiator hose T and add the return to the lower hose. Going back to the radiator is the easiest, assuming you have a stock replacement rad with the extra nipples on it.

Plug the bypass and drill some bypass holes in the thermostat.

SeanMiller063

Thank you! I figured as much for the heater but the bypass had me scratching my head.

cjsdad

Back when I was installing stereos we always recommended customers with GM vehicles to upgrade their alternator to one from a late '80s fully optioned Suburban because they are "rated" at 120 amp output. Obviously that is dependent on engine speed and the charging lead being upgraded to at least 8 gauge. The electric power is available so go for it.

Octania

Russell # has velocity in it, no?


Velocity, by definition, has time in it.

cjsdad

I worked in an automotive air conditioning shop for a while in Phoenix and it was always fun to find all the ways people modified older vehicles. As long as the air in front of the radiator is forced through it and not allowed to go around it you should be able to cool the engine.

Not during the Monsoon when it's 118ºF and raining! The worst is after the rain stops and all of the water steams up off the ground. That puts the humidity up to 100%. Put that into your heat index calculator! Phoenix has a higher average humidity than Albuquerque anyway.