1971Cutlass

Ello

My 1971 Oldsmobile Cutlass has a problem. each time i fix something, another thing goes out.
so, to the problem. I replaced the spark plug wires, and adjusted the points. it worked for a couple days, then, It got started right up, and it all the sudden starts chugging, and burning oil like crazy. I was thinking it might be a busted or stuck valve, or mabye even the points and condenser. Were so close to getting it to work and I don't want to see it die!
Well, thanks for the help. hope its not a big problem.
Jonathan

MDchanic

What do you mean by "chugging?"

And how much oil is it using?
Normally, it's measured in quarts between oil changes, or quarts per 1,000 miles.
In extreme cases, it's measured in quarts per gasoline tank.
How many miles do you drive every day?
Is it smoking?
Is there a lot of smoke coming out the breather?

Sudden loss of power, increase in roughness, and increase in smoke makes me think of a holed piston.

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

What color is the smoke? If this happened all of a sudden, my guess is that it is running way rich and is belching black smoke...
Blue smoke is oil and heavy white smoke would be antifreeze.

I hope it was black smoke - easier to fix...

oldcutlass

Like above, need more info. In the meantime you might recheck your tune! Make sure all the cylinders are firing by pulling all the spark plug wires, 1 by 1, and seeing which cylinders do not effect your idle.

1971Cutlass

The exhaust e blows oil and air at strong bursts and it sounds like a peice of heap.
(its not )
I just changed the oil and oil filter prior to problem, and most of the time, it sits. It gets driven maybe twice a month or so. I think a piston is out.
The smoke is definitely burning oil.
I just recently replaced the spark plugs, and spark plug wires and I did check the firing order. everything works. it starts better than the 4 other vehicles.
I might end up selling it if it's something huge. The engine probably needs a rebuild anyway thanks for your help. Any other things that could cause this?
(If this helps, it has 183,000 miles!)

MDchanic

I'm leaning toward holed piston with the current information.

- Eric

oldcutlass

It sounds like a distict miss. Perform the spark plug wire test to narrow it down.

1971Cutlass

I'm Selling it now.

Thanks for the help.

oldcutlass

Now thats one one to make the problem go away. Why not find out what is wrong with it before maiking a snap judgement. It could be something as simple as a spark pug wire not seated properly, a choke stickingor carb misadjusted, crap in your points,advance plate or vacuum canister inop, etc... I don't belive its a piston!!!!!!

MDchanic

I've bought some great cars that way.

I remember a Scirocco I bought - wouldn't idle below 2,500, seller had tried everything and knew the fuel injection was shot - got it for a song, took 5 minutes to clean the carbon out of the throttle body with GumOut, and it ran flawlessly.

We still don't have all the information we would need to identify this problem.
I'm not saying that I DO think it's a bad piston, only that with the small amount of information we've got, it sounds like that to me.
More information = better diagnosis.

Sell it if you want, or dive in and find out what's wrong. Your choice.

- Eric

1971Cutlass

http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/cto/2715049277.html

Here is the ad.
I am selling it because I don't have enough time to fix it.
Wish I didn't have to part with it...

AZ455

I agree with the above posts. In my opinion the car is definitely worth a little time doing some diagnostics. If you are limited on time, why not just let her sit til you have the time? Just my .02

MDchanic

... And most important, if you sell it now, we'll never know which one of us was right!

- Eric

Rickman48

Could be the timing chain slipped, with those miles!
The better it runs, the more you'll get, too!!

1971Cutlass

That's for sure.
If its the pistons, I have no idea how to do them!!!
(I'm 15 years old) not kidding
I do not want to part with it AT ALL!!!!!!

MDchanic

Alright, look, you're 1 year older than my kid, and he (sadly) wouldn't know which end of a screwdriver to hold.
You've gotten this far. Now you've got to slowly, patiently go through the Chassis Service Manual section on engines and troubleshooting, and do some basic tests, like a compression test, and give us the information as you get it, and we will help you to get this thing going right.

So, double check the dwell, check the timing, check the compression, and tell us exactly how much oil it's burning, and we can go on from there.

- Eric

1971Cutlass

Okay. I took the car off Craigslist temporarily.
Thanks for your support!
If your wondering how I got it, here is the story...

I was hired to work for an elderly Lady. She had a 2000 Ford Explorer,
and a 1971 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Sedan!
It had been sitting there for 7 years. for 1 of the years it got started every morning. She said, "I kept on using it because of the A/C" She also said it was a really reliable car for her. She then went on to say that she did not want to continue to see the car sitting in her yard. A guy I help work there, A guy named *****. Well, I asked him why she stopped using it. He said She would probably give it to me. and She DID!
I'll try to ge it going!

MDchanic

With a story like that, you've GOT to keep it going .

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

Great! So go back to the start of this thread and lets do some basic troubleshooting. Hopefully it will be an easier fix.....

Allan R

Heavy sigh... Eric, your and my kid (17) - same thing. He can out gun me on the computer, but that's it.

71Cutlass: You sound like a young man who has his head on straight. Been through problems like this before myself. Just take a deep breath and work one step at a time. Don't lose it and ditch the car.
Does it still start really easy? If it does it's likely not the timing chain. There are tons of combined years of experience on this site. No one here is going to give you crap info; we all have the same goal - to keep these old cars running..

Important: If you run into $$ problems on this fix? Just shut down for awhile till you have the $$. Then you can resurrect the thread. We'll always be here to help. Soon as you post something it goes to the top of "new posts" for the day. We'll catch it and respond, ok? Wish my son had your enthusiasm for cars! Cheers

Willidog

That's a great story, hope to see you getting it running and see some pictures of you driving it! GOOD LUCK! Can't beat FREE.

1971Cutlass

It starts like its new, but it runs the same. I'm geussing its the compression, not working and letting oil leak through...

How do you check the oil to see how much its burning???

MDchanic

Never mind checking the oil - check the compression.

- Eric

oldcutlass

A compression check is warranted, I would be willing to bet its something related to your tune, or carb/ choke related. It's been sitting for sometime, so do some troubleshooting, and follow suggestions. Keep us posted, good luck!

BOOWAH

Everyone has their opinion, but mine has always been that fixing a mechanical problem is far cheaper than body work! If the car is structurally sound and rust free, a motor rebuild will cost in the neighborhood of $3,000, while body work and paint will set you back at least $5,000! A vehicle with a good solid rust free body is always worth fixing!

Allan R

Yup, I agree. But keep in mind the OP is only 15 and doen't have a ton of money to drop on this car. He took it off CL on our recommendations to try and fix it first. You're quoting a price from a shop that he likely can't afford. It might not need a complete rebuild. Still need to find out whether it's comp issues or not.

Jonathan - how many miles on this car? Do you know? Does the lady who gave it to you have any records of maintenance?

1971Cutlass

Allan R: There is around 182,000 on the car. And the Lady that gave this to me did have some service records, even the original Protecto-Plate. (Looks like it goes through mufflers)

Boowah: The car does have rust. in 2 spots, its all the way through. Look at my profile picture. Its my car there.


Speaking of which, the points did get set quite recently.

Allan R

After some thinking about this, a couple of things pop into mind with your 'chugging' issue.
1. If the car starts fine and starts chugging like crazy, you're getting thick oily black smoke out of it right? And a heavy smell? It sounds a lot like the automatic choke is not working right. After you start it and the chugging begins, what happens if you give it some throttle for about 30-40 seconds? Does it start to run better or 'even out'? I've had that before too. Sometimes the 'chugging' will eventually slow the engine down enough that it just quits? IF that's the case you just probably need to set the choke and fuel mixture properly. Could be time for a carburetor overhaul. That's not expensive and you probably have the tools to do it.

2. With 182,000+ miles there's a chance you have a blockage in the intake manifold ports. I had this on one of my cars. Big chunk of carbon blocking the runner. Contributed to a rough running engine.

3. 182,000+ miles. Check the mtce records for any work done on the timing chain. It may start fine, but if it's really sloppy you'll get a poor running engine. Once it jumps, you'll never get it started again until you put a new one in.

1971Cutlass

The burning oil color is actually more white than dark.
I've tried just holding the throttle down for 30 seconds and it didn't even out.
The Lady that gave me this car didn't have ALL the records, just a couple, like 2 for a muffler, and a tranny rebuild. along W/ a couple others.
You mentioned that the choke might not be working? Well, ever since I got it, the Manual choke neither works or gets used! Would this be a problem.
I almost would have enough money to have an Engine rebuild, but the Cutlass isn't the highest priority on my list if you know what I mean!!!
Me having an old car for just 4 months, I don't know about the Intake Manifold stuff. Its kind of learning Chinese for the first time!
Thanks a lot for your help.

Allan R

Ok, white smoke is not good.
Oil:I looked through this thread and nowhere did I see that you'd done an oil/filter change. Check the dipstick - not just for the level of the oil, but have a look at the color. Is it slightly 'milky brown' looking? If that's the case you might have a blown head gasket. You can fix that yourself without having to take the whole engine apart for now. Check that oil first.

Choke: If it's got a 2GC carb, it should have an automatic bimetal coil choke on the side of the carb. Is that bypassed or taken off? The starting problem could definitely be linked to the choke. But I wouldn't be running the car until I know the oil is not contaminated.

Modulator: It could also be burning white if the trans modulator is not working and is sucking tranny fluid into the engine. Check your tranny fluid to see whether there's anything in there - you said it had tranny service; maybe the modulator wasn't hooked up right or is faulty. If you unhook the modulator line and start the car with no vacuum going to the trans and the white smoke disappears you know the modulator is shot.

navvet

This is great!!! Don't let this young man off the hook!! When I first tuned my car I put new ignition wires on it and it ran like crap...I replaced the wires again and the same thing. Long story short, all wires from the manufacturer were defective and there was a recall!!
So I found another brand and the problem went away. Sometimes it is the little thing!!!
Hang in there..your car has style! For fun Google photos of Oldsmobile Cutlas and see how great the car can be and how proud you will be of all your hard work.
This is a great group of people who will teach and be there for you. Good luck

1971Cutlass

The oil got changed about 10 miles ago along with the oil filter.
Actually the Tranny service was back in the early 1980s!!!
Do you think it could be ignition related? Couse I just changed the spark plug wires, and spark plug and all the firing order was good. What about the points. My G-Pa set the points a month or so ago and that's when it worked perfectly. How do you check the manifold?

Allan R

re: could it be the points? Yes, could be if they weren't fastened down tightly when you changed them ( you did change them, didn't you?) they might cause this. Check that screw that holds the points down. If it is loose, that could be the source of your problem. Call you G-Pa to come over and adjust them again. If that solves your problem you're off to the races. If not....


1. When it was running 'perfectly', does that mean it started and ran at high idle until you kicked it down or was it idling slowly at startup, but evenly?
2. What is your timing and dwell set at right now?
3. Did it puff white smoke when it was first started and then run clean?
4. You said you ran it for 30 seconds at higher idle (hopefully around 1200 rpm or so). Did you notice the white smoke getting thicker, was it constant, or start to clear up a bit? You might want to try this again, but keep it running for at least a minute. 30 seconds doesn't really clear out any uneven running.

Ok on the oil change - found it in permalink 5. But, did you check the color of the oil? If there's a cracked or blown head gasket it will allow coolant into the combustion chamber. It can also change the color of the oil to that milky brown. By any chance did you notice if the exhaust smelled kind of 'sweet' like the smell of coolant? Get someone who knows the smell to stand behind the car to check this. (BTW it will also probably end up making their eyes water - it's nasty that way).

1971Cutlass

Actually I did have the point and condenser parts, but they only got set. It was a to hard job for me to accomplish correctly.
When I started it up, it started and ran at a perfect idle evenly. Then one day it got started and slowly, it started to belch smoke and run like garbage.
I have no idea what the timing and dwell is set at....how do I?
It puffed smoke mostly when I depress the accelerator.
When a ran it, the smoke was chugging out, so the exhaust would blow a lot of air at a time, so would the smoke. Now it won't even start!!! Just revving but there's zippo happining... I haven't tried checking the oil because it just got changed. If there is a cracked or blown head gasket, this is going to someone else.
JIH

Rickman48

There you go - getting disgusted again!!
You gonna let an old car beat ya??
Way I look at everything - if a man put it together, there's no reason I can't fix it!!
You're young, and if you learn 3-4 things everyday, imagine your knowledge in your golden years!

I'm still leaning towards the timing chain, which can be a 3-4 hour job, with the right tools in front of you, but you should diagnose it correctly before 'throwing it away'!
I mean, what have you got in it?? Next to nothing, and if you fix it, you've got a good, dependable DD for under a grand!!
Patience, young one!!!!!!
Diagnose it, and then make a decision!!

Allan R

Time for a time out. It's always easier to walk away than take on the challenge. I've always found that when I'm facing a big job, it doesn't get done by just looking at it. Ok, now that it won't even run, there's a good chance that with 182K on it, the timing chain may have jumped. I agree with Rickman48 on this. FWIW, I have the dubious honor of learning an entire engine rebuild in the spring, so that's a big job too. If you need some tools to get the timing cover off (pullers) Autozone has a 'free tool' loaner program that can help you out. Like I said before, take this a step at a time. BTW, I'd still check the oil even if you changed it 10 miles ago. If coolant is pumping into the cylinder it will contaminate the oil very quickly. Replacing the leaking head gasket is mostly a time consuming job. These old heads are cast iron and weigh a lot, but doing the work is actually pretty easy.

I'm going to suggest that you go to the 'Wild About Cars' website and join it. Free membership and info sharing. You can also download the 1971 Chassis service Manual (CSM) that deals with the issues of distributor, timing chain and head gaskets. If you run into any problems LMK and I'll post the link info you will need to read up on.

Totally agree. I think from our perspective this is easier said than for him to do though. At 15, this is when he's supposed to be out having fun instead of wrenching on cars. ooooohhh, somebody smack me!

AZ455

I don't know, it depends I guess. When I was around 16 I was at home wrenching on my first car most of the time, and I had fun doing it. Although sometimes it was because I had to if I wanted to be able to get anywhere and have fun.

Anyway, I agree with most saying that for what is invested in the car, might as well keep it and try to diagnose the issue, then decide if you want to fix it or pass it on. Personally, I'd fix it!

Allan R

And we need to keep Jonathan inspired to do it too. Is there anyone in his neck of the woods who could drop over and see what he's up against? It's always much easier to work with someone than on your own (well most of the time anyway)

When I was 16, I could do the basic wrenching too. But sometimes it was just enough to be dangerous, if you know what I mean. Rickman is right though, experience is a great teacher. Once you learn something you have a skill you can develop even further. I really hope the dream doesn't die with a 'no starting' situation. IMO that's the beginning not the end...

Rickman48

I forgot - kids today have a lot more to do than we ever did!
We had model cars, then cars - maybe 5 channels on the tube, and maybe a girl or four.
Nowadays - they have - EVERYTHING! Don't have time for a list - I'm too old!
And, we all know it!

Just hope he doesn't give up!

MDchanic

I hate to present a divergent hypothesis, and I will admit that this has been going on long enough that I may have missed it's having been addressed elsewhere, BUT,

Did we establish that his choke is operational?

Every thing described so far could be accounted for by a closed choke plate, especially if the pulloff were bad or had been removed.

"chugging"
smoke
poor running
and, finally, failure to start when the plugs were completely fouled.

Just a thought...

- Eric