rcorrigan5

Hi Everyone,
I've been working out the kinks in my '69 that remained since I finished its restoration in 2016. I'm down to the cruise control and it seems like I'm almost there in getting it to work properly. But now the car won't start. I crank and crank and crank and it seems like it wants to start but it just doesn't. At first I thought it was fuel, as this all started when I filled the tank with (supposedly) 92 octane non-ethanol premium. About 15 miles later, the car started to miss and cough. It got progressively worse until I got home and was lucky to get the car into the garage, but only by keeping the RPMs up around 2500 and lurching forward with the other foot on the brake so I wouldn't lurch into my work bench. The car hasn't started since.
I was wondering if I might have gotten water with the fuel I bought so I added a product into the tank called "HEET" that is supposed to either suck up or otherwise neutralize any water in the tank. That didn't work. Then I thought that maybe my fuel pump failed again (the first one failed after only two years and the one on it now has only been in use for two years) so I checked that out and the fuel pump works fine. I also checked the fuel lines (feed and return) and they are clear. I'm getting fuel to the carburetor.
At this point, I'm thinking the problem might be electrical. I did an "arc" test on #3 cylinder and I do get an arc but it seems infrequent to me, like it's not arcing with every pass of the rotor. The distributor looks OK, as well as the rotor, the cap, and the points. The coil has continuity as well as the coil wire to the distributor. What I don't understand is that I can't seem to measure any continuity with the spark plug wires. Do they carry a very high resistance? I get nothing (i.e., open) on my multimeter.
Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. I'm pretty much out of ideas and my next move will be to tow it to my mechanic's garage if I can't solve it in my own garage!

Randy C.

stan 65 cutlass

are you still running points? did they close up?
pour gas in carb, does it make any difference?

oldcutlass

The chances of all your plug wires going bad at once is pretty slim. Engines need air (generally a given), fuel and a properly timed spark. You can disconnect the coil wire and the fuel line crank some fuel into a clear jar and let it sit for a few hours, water will be very obvious. I would check dwell and timing after determining whether the carb is pumping 2 solid squirts of fuel while looking down the throat and operating the accelerator by hand.

tru-blue 442

You may try a new condenser. I have had them go bad and make the points fire infrequently or not at all.

Yellowstatue

There's upwards of 6K to 20K resistance on some plug wires. Stainless steel wires are zero ohms.

Fun71

So the main ingredient in HEET is - you guessed it - alcohol! The same stuff they put in E-10 gasoline.

Anyway, I agree with the suggestion to pour some known-good gasoline into the carb and see if the engine will fire up. If it doesn't, I think you have isolated it to an ignition issue.

tkcutlass

FWIW probably not it, but we had an issue back in the day where the car would immediately stall after it started, drove everyone in the shop nuts for two weeks.
Finally one of the techs dropped the exhaust and it fired right up. It ended up being a clogged cat converter, the backpressure was so high it would cause the engine to stall right after starting.

rcorrigan5

Here's answers to the questions thus far.

I'm still running points. They looked good when I pulled the cap off but I didn't look close enough. I'll go back for close scrutiny. I did pour good gas into the carburetor and got the same thing of it trying to start but it just didn't.

I only checked #1 and #3 for continuity and my meter said they were both open. I checked the coil wire and the meter went close to zero resistance.

Good idea on pumping some gas into a clear jar. I'll give that a go tomorrow, as well as looking down the throat of the carburetor and checking for the two solid squirts. I've seen people do that but I've never done it. That will change tomorrow!

This car doesn't have cat converters so that's not the problem. I have seen that happen on cars with cat converters.

Thanks for the ideas, everyone. I'll let you know what happens once I conduct more tests tomorrow.

Randy C.

I have a spare condenser around here somewhere. I'll dig it up and put it in my line of trials.

droldsmorland

Randy,
Verify 12VDC-ish to the coil + with ign on?
How do the plugs read?
Do you have a dwell meter?
Do you have an inline spark tester?
Did you verify the point condition & gap?
Do you get fuel down to the plugs?

Check the distributor neg wire for continuity, disconnected on both ends. Move the breaker plate with the vac canister or wiggle the wire while the ohmmeter is hooked to it to see if the resistance in the wire stays steady or fluctuates. If it fluctuates the wire is bad.
If the above tests are good put it back together and try this:

1. Pull the cap
2. Get the engine on TDC #1, 10* either side of that is ok and preferred. Verify the rotor points to #1 on the cap.
3. Turn ign to ON.
4. With # 1 plug removed and still hooked to the plug wire, ground it on something.
5. With your other hand grab the rotor and rock it back in forth to get the points to open n close. This should induce spark on the plug. You may have to move the crank a few degrees to get distributor cam off the crown so the point set will open & close to saturate/collapse the coil etc...
If you get a consistent blue spark from the plug, the points, cond, and coil are ok.
Replace the plugs and see what happens.

Yes standard plug wires have a high resistance.

As I always say verify all primary & secondary grounds are good.
Steve

rcorrigan5

Tried a number of things today, all with negative results. Question about the coil: When I crank the engine, the coil gives me 12+ volts. The starter/engine crank well but the engine does not start. When I release the key from the cranking position to the "run" position, the voltage in the coil drops to zero. Is that the way it is supposed to be? It would seem to me that the coil should still be putting out 12v in the "run" position as well, or does that only happen if the engine starts?

To review, here's what happened, about 15 miles after I put 1 gallons of non-ethanol 92 octane premium in the tank to fill it (20 gallon tank), the car started to sputter and run real rough. I got the car home and decided to check the timing and dwell. The dwell read right at 30*, exactly where it is supposed to be. I had trouble checking the timing because the car kept cutting out. When it was at idle, it appeared the timing was correct when the light would flash (it didn't always flash). I took the car out again and the symptoms just got progressively worse, to the point that I was lucky to get the car back into my shop before it quit completely. It hasn't run since.

Looked at the points, rotor and distributor cap today. They all look brand new. Point condition looked great and all don't have any outward appearance of abuse.

I poured good gas directly into the primaries but the car would not start. I could also see where gas was going into the carburetor via the fuel pump. No joy.

I put some tank gas into a glass jar and let it set all afternoon. Looks clear and bright - no sign of water or any particles.

I didn't try a different condenser. Couldn't find the spare I have somewhere in the shop.

The plugs look good. They are only 4 years old and have just 400 miles on them. Same with the wires. I don't have an in-line spark tester and I'm not sure if fuel is getting down to the plugs - the plugs looked pretty dry. The distributor negative wire is continuous.

And that's as far as I got today. I have a phone call to make to a member tomorrow to discuss this issue. In the meantime, any more thoughts will be greatly appreciated. For some reason, I think the problem is electrical but I can't say why. I like things you can see and I can't see electricity!

Randy C.

BackInTheGame

You may have already checked this: Distributor condenser wire shorting where it passes through the base of the dist? Happened on my first '68, many, many Moons ago.

oldcutlass

If your measuring across the coil with key in the on position, you can read 0 volts if the points are open. Pull your spark plugs and see what they look like.

72455442RA

https://jmcautomotiveequipment.com/l...xoCXKUQAvD_BwE

this is my best buddy ,,,,use it on the lawn mower chainsaw boat motor pressure washer generator
oh and car engines,,,,
sent you a private message but never heard from you today
this model unplugs and the plug wire can swap ends from 90 degree to straight,,,
and
it doesnt fall apart like the cheaper ones that are usually a straight boot only
you checked ALL the plugs ? no shinney clean ones ?

droldsmorland

Randy,
First, let's do some safety:
Have a way to disconnect the negative battery cable fast should something go wrong. I put battery disconnects on the neg post of all vintage vehicles.
Have a fire extinguisher at hand.
Have an open path out of the garage for you and if you need to push the car out in a hurry...there... had to get that out of the way. Just saw a 71 burn to the ground.
I'd hate to see something go wrong and see you or it get hurt.

Tough to accurately troubleshoot long distance.
Do you have the 69 wire diagrams?
Do you know how to do a voltage "drop" test?
You did hook up the spark tester and saw nothing right? Fouled plugs will show NO spark with a spark tester.

2 things have my attention:
1. No fuel on the plugs after all this cranking and manual priming.
2. No voltage on the + terminal of the coil to ground with the key in the run position.

Before we go any further down the rabbit hole lets keep it simple.

The coil + always has power in the RUN position and with the engine running, (like Eric said not across the coil but from + to ground)
This could be the trouble spot. The "run" circuit could be open? Bad wire/Bad ign switch.

I apologize...I'm tired, old, and don't feel like searching for the diagrams(1145 pm here up at 5). If memory is working....follow the pink wires through the firewall bulkhead/fuse box back to the ignition switch. The bulkhead terminals could be corroded? The diagram will clearly show this circuit. A volt drop test will pinpoint it.

Also, check the neutral safety switch. Put it in Neutral and try to start it, I don't remember if your 69 is an auto or stick?

rcorrigan5

For droldsmorland,
You did hit on something with the neutral safety switch (THM 400 on the console). I just replaced mine and the car will not start in neutral anymore. And...I was measuring voltage on the coil from + to ground, not across the coil. What would the car not starting in neutral tell me?

Randy

oldcutlass

The NSS does not supply voltage to the coil, it only allows the starter to engage or not. So that is not your issue.

Fun71

Most likely the adjustment is off and it may start in D or R.

rcorrigan5

No new news today. Ventured out and bought an in-line spark tester. Will give that a whirl tomorrow.

Just so everyone knows, I'm no mechanic by any stretch of the imagination. There are some details of about everything I understand but I just don't have the vast detail knowledge that a lot of people here do have. I will do what I can. Got some good advice today over the phone and will work through those items in the next couple of days as time permits. I'm just waivering back and forth as to if this is an electrical problem or a fuel supply problem. Hopefully the spark tester will give me something more definite. I thank everyone for the input you've provided. I started with next to nothing and I'm progressing, albeit slowly, to hopefully discovering what the problem is. Thanks again!

Randy C.

Yellowstatue

Once upon a time I had a new dist. rotor with a bad rivet connection from the spring tab to the spark blade.

Fun71

I realize that troubleshooting over the internet is not optimal and a lot of things can be lost in translation, but since you poured fresh gas into the carb and the engine still did not fire, it seems that you have ruled out a fuel supply issue.

droldsmorland

Lets do some rabbit hole extraction:
Again, I question why no fuel is observed on the plugs from priming and cranking? They should be wet even fouled, not dry.

Your statement ...."the car started to miss and cough. It got progressively worse until I got home" suggests something slowly broke down. AND "At first I thought it was fuel, as this all started when I filled the tank." Coincidence? Maybe maybe not. But it seems to be the dictionary splitting event.

Ignition: Rule out ignition by visually observing spark while cranking...Spark Y or N? Yes, ignition is ok. No, ignition NOK.
Fuel System: Fuel pressure while cranking? Y or N? Yes, good fuel pump. Good pump shots of gas while actuating the throttle looking down the carb? Y or N? No, needle/seat if pump pressure checked.

The spark check method I explained in post #9 is quick and definitive.

DG65

When checking voltage on coil did you check the negative side. If using test light it should flash when points open and close. You should have voltage to positive side when starting and in run position.

1of1442

:” When I crank the engine, the coil gives me 12+ volts. The starter/engine crank well but the engine does not start. When I release the key from the cranking position to the "run" position, the voltage in the coil drops to zero. Is that the way it is supposed to be? It would seem to me that the coil should still be putting out 12v in the "run" position as well, or does that only happen if the engine starts?“



Bad ignition switch??? You will have 12 v TO the coil when cranking but should read 6 v TO the coil in run position.

PatL

Do you have a dwell meter ? you can still check the dwell while turning the car over, even it does not start. At least it will tell you if your dwell is way out of wack. Then you can adjust it enough to get the car started and then dial it in.

rcorrigan5

Another day with no joy. I do have a dwell meter and it checks out right at 30 degrees. I tried something a little different today as I started thinking "fuel" again. I have a spare, known to be working, carburetor so I put it on to see if the original carb was acting up. While the original carb was off, I checked the fuel pump again with a few cranks of the engine and the fuel pump is indeed delivering fuel to the carburetor. But my efforts didn't make any difference. I used my brand new in-line spark tester today (Lisle brand model 20610) and I'm getting spark but it just doesn't seem to be a good, consistent spark. The light seems dim when it sparks and the light doesn't flash nearly as frequently as I think it should, even just cranking. That's all I had time for today. I'm glad I don't have to get the car on the road anytime soon! Again, thank you for all the help and suggestions you've put forth. I'm thinking now it's time for points, condenser, rotor, distributor cap, possibly a different coil, plugs and wires.

Another thought hit me, although I think it's a bit off base. Is it possible the timing chain jumped? The car only has 400 miles on it since the engine rebuild and I believe if the timing chain was an issue (somehow not installed properly) it would have jumped long before now. Plus, the engine sounds like it wants to start but it just isn't getting there. I had a timing chain jump in my first car (it was a '69 4-4-2 holiday coupe) and, when I tried to start it after the chain jumped (I didn't know it had jumped at that point), the engine sounded out of the ordinary. My current '69 doesn't sound out of the ordinary when trying to start.

So that's it for today. I don't know if I'll be able to get to the car tomorrow or not. Got lots of yard work to do!

Randy C.

gs72

Are you sure you grabbed the correct pump at the gas station and didn’t put diesel in it by mistake? Just asking, I have seen it happen before. Its easy to check. If you pour a small fuel sample on the concrete the gas will flatten to the surface like a piece of paper. If its diesel it will Have more density and will lay on the floor like oil. Also if you put a small amount on a piece of paper the gasoline will evaporate and leave a light dry stain on the paper. Diesel will make it look like a cheese burger wrapper and will not evaporate

rcorrigan5

It's definitely gasoline. Even though in Oregon you aren't supposed to pump your own gas, the station where I go to get non-ethanol will let me pump it myself, which is nice.

Randy C.

1of1442

The points open or closed will have no effect on supply voltage to the + side of the coil. If the + side of coil shows 12v+ when cranking and goes to zero when key is at run position the ignition switch is faulty. A quick easy test if your still not sure is to run a jumper wire from the battery to the + side of the coil. Be ready to yank it off if it runs because you will be bypassing the ignition switch and removing the jumper wire will be the only way to shut it off.

oldcutlass

If you have a tach hooked to the coil, disconnect it for now. If the engine was rebuilt I doubt its the timing chain, the ones that usually jumped were the plastic coated originals. Yours should have been replaced. Pull the plugs and see what they look like and if you have an extra set install them. Running a jumper to the coil from the battery will isolate the ignition from everything else. A steady 30* dwell means the points are working.

rcorrigan5

I got the car running again today! And the problem was such a simple one. I went back through all of your suggestions and realized that I hadn't tried a very early suggestion so I went to Napa Auto Parts and paid $3.29 for a new ignition condenser. And that was it, thanks to tru-blue 442 from Marble Falls, TX! I installed the new condenser, my wife crossed her fingers and the car fired right up and idled nicely, not missing a beat. I still have trouble understanding how such a simple, inexpensive part can immobilize and entire machine but it surely did it to mine for two weeks! Now I can get back to getting my factory cruise control system working again...but not this weekend as it will be pouring down rain...I'll get to that next week.

Many thanks to all of you who contributed ideas and things to look for. That is the pure blessing of this site. I learned many new things and having all your expertise out there at my fingertips is a wonderful thing to be able to access. Thanks again, everyone!

Randy C.

stan 65 cutlass

congrats

My442

The problem with electronic parts is when they break, it is not obvious to the naked eye.

oldcutlass

Glad you got it. I remember fighting a no start problem on a model A a few years back that turned out to be a condenser, it does not usually happen with these cars.

Fun71

Glad you got it running!

It's the same thing with home AC systems and such. A simple start or run capacitor on a fan motor fails and takes down the whole system.

Your condenser (which is a capacitor) is probably shorted or very leaky. That would essentially provide a path to short the coil to ground, which would result in a very weak spark or no spark at all, which is what you found during troubleshooting with the spark tester.

tru-blue 442

Glad to have been able to help Randy. Years ago I had a hardtop 66 442 that after a few miles of driving, it would backfire and die.
After cooling off, it would fire and run until it warmed up and then, Boom, quit. It took me a while to figure out that the condenser was the culprit.

gs72

Nice

droldsmorland

Rabbit hole extraction successful!
Randy 1, car 0.
Game to be continued with cruise control...lol

rcorrigan5

That is so much the truth with cruise control! I'll light up on my old post when I get that resolved but, right now, everything points to the transducer. I'm working with a business in Minneapolis (Cruisemasters) that specializes in transducers and the boss there is looking at my original transducer (that doesn't work at all), and the spare one I have for '70-'82 cars that goes to full throttle when I engage the cruise control. Hopefully, he will have a solution for either one, or both. It would be nice to put the original transducer back on the car. So, right now, I'm driving around without a speedometer!

Randy C.

rcorrigan5

Oh, and by the way, that comment I made about the car not starting in neutral, with the new condenser the car now starts in neutral. I don't know why, but it starts in neutral, like it is supposed to, with a good condenser!

Randy C.

droldsmorland

TX for the follow-up.

Look at the Corvette restoration suppliers, Ecklers, Corvette Central, Mid America, et al. I restored a 25th-anniversary vette and the transducer was available rebuilt.
The NCRS guys have a solution to almost everything. Look there for high-quality general-purpose parts as well such as points, cond, rotor, cap etc.
Steve