Kevin W

Hi guys need some help from you on my 67’ 442. I’m not getting oil up thru the push rods on the stock 400 cid. I'm just finishing-up a frame-off restoration, within 30 minutes of start-up (the engine ran fine, two years ago), I started to hear a squeak, after some invetigation, I found out, that I was getting oil up to the top end (after oiling the rockers by hand, the squeak goes away). This is what I’ve tried so far: first I checked the oil pressure, on cold start-up I have 45 psi, after 20-30 minutes it drops down to around 35 psi (idle). So my next step, I removed the intake, at this point I was thinking that the lifters may have been gummed up from sitting. I pulled a couple of lifters out and tore them apart, they were very clean, so I pulled that last lifter c/t cid #7, put a socket in a drill and turn the oil pump. Plenty of oil comes up out of the galley. With all the push rods in place and using my drill, I’m able to get 40 psi but no oil up thru the push rods. Any ideas or suggestions?

ah64pilot

Are the push-rods new? Are they themselves clogged? Do the lifter plungers work if you push them in by hand?

Chesrown 67 OAI

Need more info --- youre explanation doesnt make sense to me? I could guess that maybe one or two pushrods could be clogged, but not all 16 so thats probably not your problem. I am assuming anyway that you looked thru them or even blew through them to see that they werent clogged?
Otherwise, from a mechanical standpoint - if the lifter is getting oil into it, it has to escape somewhere and that somewhere is up the pushrods. So it doesnt make sense that you have oil coming into the lifter galley and not being able to get into the lifter itself to go on up through the pushrod. There could be a possibility of the lifters not pumping up after having drained down from setting? If that may be the case --- soak all 16 lifters in a coffee can full of oil overnight and reinstall them and retest by running pump with drill.?? Maybe someone else has a better answer?

Oldsmaniac

Yeah it is hard to say what the problem is. What RPM are you running it at? Are the pushrods spinning?

Kevin W

Thank's for the replys. Nothing new for the engine, same push rods. Yes, I checked all the push rods to make sure they were cleared. The lifters are all pumped up, I actually can not push them in by hand, but with them installed depending were they are at on the cam lode, the plungers inside the lifters appear to be working. When I pulled this engine out, 2 years ago, it ran fine no probelms, all I did was replace all the gaskets, pan, front cover, valve covers, intake and son on. At first, I thought maybe the lifters gummed up from sitting, but after taking a couple of them apart, they were really cleaned. This is so strange, everyone I have talked to, it has them stumped also. Before I removed the intake, I had the covers off while it was running, it should have been spraying oil all over the place, right? Doesn't matter if its at and idle or throttled up, good oil pressure, just no oil coming up thru those push rods. It doesn't make sense.

Oldsmaniac

Well actually oil bleeds from the holes in the rockers. On an Olds it does not squirt! It may take 5 minutes or so to see it at about 1000 rpm. This is why you can run the engine with the covers off for a little while.... then the oil will run off the rockers and start to be thrown over top of the heads and onto ex manifolds.

copper128

What lifters are you running? Are you sure the oil bands in the correct location?
This is a .921 lifter block, so be sure the pushrod cups in the lifters have oil holes in them. Some .921 lifters don't have those oil holes since the 50's engines oiled through the rocker shafts.

Kevin W

I just checked, they are .921 lifters, the lifters have an oil hole on the top were the push rods are, the puh rods are hallow. How I discovered this problem, after I put the engine back in and got it tuned, I drove the car around the block (about 2 miles) by the time I got back to the house I had a squeak. I pulled the belts, could still hear the squeak, I could tell it was on the top end, so I pulled the valve covers off, that's when I noticed that the inside covers were still dry (I had ran the covers thru the parts washer before paint), so no oil was splashing up on them. I noticed that the LH didn't have any oil, so I squirted oil on themwith a oil can, started it up, the squeak was gone but after a while that oil works its way down and it starts squeaking again. The RH side seams to have a little more oil coming up the push rods, but not that much. I would have thought that little drive, top speed about 30 mph, would have gotten the covers wet in the inside.

Oldsmaniac

Well a 2 mile drive should be enough, did you change the oil and oil filter? I would do that and then i am out of advice since you say it was a well running engine before, so what could have happened from just sitting?

Run to Rund

I guess you need to start at the beginning. Remove the distributor and either one lifter at a time or all of them. Tape a deep well 5/16" socket to an extension and spin counterclockwise and see that oil comes out the 1/8" feed holes at each lifter bore. Make sure each lifter has proper oil feeding--pghotos will help here. Then hold each pushrod up to the light and look through it.

11971four4two

I primed the last 455 I fired at least 20 minutes turning the the oil pump shaft with a 1/2" drill , counter clockwise , before I had oil to all my rocker arm fulcrums. I started priming at TDC spun the pump for 5 minutes.
Turned the crankshaft one turn with a large wrench. spun the pump with the drill for 5 minutes. turned the crankshaft , with a large wrench , one turn . spun the pump for 5 minutes with the drill . etc etc. Until oil was observed across the board. \

m371961

I am new to Olds engines, and if I am off bases excuse my ignorance and teach me something. Does this engine have the internal oil galley plug that feeds the distributor? If it is missing would one lose all oil pressure, or just reduce the pressure in the lifter oil galley? It would explain some oil in right side rockers, and none in left. Maybe look to see if oil is squirting out in dist gear area when drill primeing or running like a river out the hole.
Sorry if I am off base, but I bet a lot of these plugs get removed at machine shops and are forgotten on assembly.
Again, if I am off, my apologies for being dumb, just trying to help.

Kevin W

Ok, guys just removed the rockers and push rods. All the push rods are clear. For fun, I put the drill back in the and turned the oil pump counterclockwise, I'm getting about 40 psi the drill is turning around 600 rpm. Looking at the lifters, it apears to me, I see more oil bleeding around the lifter plungers and around the outside dia rather than the oil hole at the top (where the push rod rest). Is that normal? Do I have worn out lifters. I did take one apart, it appeared clean to me.

I used the term loosly that it ran great before the restoration, I didn't drive it much, the engine appeared to run great. I bought the car from a friend, he's owned it since 71. The car had been driven only once or twice a year to our clubs car show, since 89 when I met the my friend. My friend is getting ready to retire, he sold it to me because he knew I would restore the car and not just turn it to make a buck. The engine was rebuilt back in 79, it doesn't have too many miles on it. I don't know if the cam and lefters were changed.

What I have done to this engine is degreased it, pulled all the tin, intake, heads. It looked great inside, the cid walls look great. Put it back together, painted it, got it started, changed the oil, then went for my first test drive. Ran into my problem.
When I removed the valve train, I put it back in the same way it came out, including push rods, I always thought they wore together.

Again, thanks for any info. I can take one of the lifters apart and take a picture if that will help.

ah64pilot

If you leave that plug out you will have zero oil pressure. Also, the OP didn't say he had it rebuilt so I doubt that plug was removed. We're all kinda fishing here on this one...

Kevin, I would never advise someone to "degrease" the inside of an engine...please tell me you "degreased" the outside only. That is a sure fire way of getting gunk clogged into one of many small diameter holes that are crucial to the oiling system. The above mentioned oil galley plug being one of them.

For argument's sake, would you be willing to pull a few lifters and disassemble them? I have a feeling you could have clogged plunger holes or worn out lifters that are allowing oil to get past the plunger so as not to produce enough pressure to push oil up the pushrod.

Grasping for straws I know, but it's worth a shot...

Steve

Kevin W

@ah64pilot - I only degreased the outside, I would never degrease the inside, the most I do is my shop vac and a rag, to clean up sealant and gasket remains.

I did disassemble a few of the lifters, they were very clean and I checked the oil hole, they were clear. I'm thinking that the lifters are worn out, more oil is escaping around the plungers than the oil hole

bigD

i'd try a set of new lifters... lord knows i've spent $50 on worse...

Kevin W

Any sugestions on what brand name lifter to buy, bigD?

copper128

Those lifters are expensive and can be hard to get.

Run to Rund

You probably should go to one of the Olds race vendors such as are on ROP to get .921" lifters. It is the perfect time to get a camshaft as well, since new lifters are best put on a new cam, with a good film of cam lube. Disassemble and photograph the internals of a lifter. Some oil should come through the pushrod hole in the lifter button. They do have metering restrictions internally so shouldn't pump a huge amount of oil, especially when priming the engine.

Kevin W

Wow, those lifters are expensive.
I need to look into a few things before I go out and buy a set of lifters. I need to mic the bores and lifter ODs, not sure if what wears first, block or the lifter?
I also need to understand how a lifter works, the part that I'm having a hard time understanding, how does the oil get past the oil metering disc?

bigD

oooohhh, i didnt realize he was dealing with .921" lifters, yikes! are any of them getting oil to the rocker?

Oldsmaniac

I got my .921 lifters from EGGE at a fair price. Seem to work ok only I just broke the engine in and have not really tested it...

Kevin W

Thanks Oldsmaniac, I'll check them out.

I studied my lifters this afternoon, I wanted to understand how the oil got past the meter disc and I finely figured it out, the push rod socket isn't flat. So, the only time oil would be able to make it thru the hole to the push rod would be on the down side of the cam lobe. So without the engine running, there's no way oil can bleed thru the top oil hole, the constant pressure from the pump by using a drill, it will just push the disc up against the socket and not allow any oil to flow. When the engine is running, the plunger and check ball are moving up and down causing the disc to move up and down like a diaphragm, thus pushing oil out the hole. Looking at my olds service manual, they show the lifters to have a disk, I just wonder if the original metering disc might have had some small hole or holes in them. Doesn't seam like a very good design. Still doesn't account for why they worked before and now they don't.

My 71 455 has a different style of oil metering for the lifters.

Run to Rund

In your year range, the pushrod button is "crowned" on the bottom, actually more like the hull of a boat. The metering plate doesn't have any holes (stock) but aftermarket ones often have one or 4 holes, offset from center. The stock design is intended to meter just enough oil for the Olds rockers, much less than Chevy rockers need. Check the plungers and metering cup by removing from the lifter body. If all is good and they are the same ones that worked before, look elsewhere for the problem. When the engine was built, did someone install some kind of restrictors behind the main bearings, etc.?

Kevin W

Update- Ok, so I had to walk away from it, needless to say my frustration level was a bit high.

After I pulled each lifter out, one at a time and disassembled each one and cleaned them (they all look great, check ***** moved freely, no indication of being worn out, they look new). I re-checked each push rod and rocker arm cups for blockage and reinstalled them, put the distributor back in and had the old lady come out and turn the engine over with the starter. All 16 lifters are rotating but only a couple of the push rods rotated. The push rods that did spin, are on LH side, the side that I'm getting a little bit of oil too.

So am I on to something here?

I checked a couple push rods and rocker arm cups for burrs, they look good. Any ideas why they wouldn't spin? Or do I need the engine running to actually check them.

Run to Rund

The lifters spin, good. Whether and how fast the pushrods spin depends on rpm too. The rockers don't spin so they are caught between something spinning and something not spinning. The engine may have to be running to see any appreciable amount of oil coming out of the rockers, because the lifters don't meter much oil, unlike Chevies.

Kevin W

@Run to Rund, thanks.

Sorry about the poor wording, I know the rockers don't spin.

I'm at the point, I think I'll put the intake back on, get the thing running and see if the push rods spin at faster RPM. It's the only thing that makes sense, how else would the oil get up to the top without the push rods spining, there can't be alot of pressure, with the oil metering disc, so I would think the push rod spinning would force what oil that comes out to go up. Right? I'll just have to make sure I keep lots of oil on the top end until the system takes over.

Icendently, I pulled a lifter out of of 1978 454 I have lying around, it's lifters have a identical oil metering disc set up like that of my 67 does (no oil holes in disc). They are fairly new lifters, so that tells me that it's not a too bad design if they are still using them today.

Kevin W

Update
So last week, I decided to go ahead and bolt the intake back on, to check to see if the push rods were spinning as it ran. Started the car up and confirmed, all of the push rods are indeed spinning but I’m still not getting any oil up thru the push rods. Then over the weekend, it finally quit raining, so I was able to drive the car around the block, I’m reluctant to drive the car very far or at any significant speed because I replaced all the bushings, tie rods and ball joints, so I'm badly in need of a front alignment. After my little drive, I pulled the valve covers back off, I’m starting to see some oil coming up thru those push rods. So at this point, I think I need to get the car down to the shop for an alignment, then take it out for a longer drive at some higher speeds, then check to see if more oil is comes up to the top end.