joe_padavano

Here's an update on the 62 F-85 wagon. The car was delivered in the middle of the last crippling snowstorm that hit the DC area in February. I was unable to get off the farm since the main road wasn't plowed for days, so I arranged to have it dropped off at a storage unit. Over the last month I've been chasing the coolant leak in the 215 motor. I have good news/bad news.

The good news is that this is really a solid western desert car. The bad news is that since the 215 was one of the first mass produced aluminum motors sold in the US, folks did not realize that antifreeze was required, even if the temperature never got close to freezing. Not only were many of the freeze plugs leaking, but there was a corroded area at the rear passenger side of the block. JB Weld did not hold, so it was time for a motor swap.

Fortunately, my friend Scott Phillips had recently installed a Jetfire motor in his 1962 Cutlass convertible (there was a photo of his car in JWO a couple of months ago). His old non-turbo engine was taking up valuable space in his basement, and he let me have it on indefinite loan. Sunday was swap day.

There are some unique "features" on the 61-63 F-85 family, not the least of which is the tight packaging of the drivetrain. The CSM says that drivetrain removal is from the bottom, to include the suspension crossmember ().

I wasn't going to do that, but unfortunately the oil pan sump was so close to the crossmember that there was no way to pull the engine forward to disengage the input shaft on the trans. For those not familiar with the Rotohydramatic trans, the torque converter is inside the trans , behind the front pump. There is a splined input shaft like a manual trans and the flywheel has a spring-loaded damper that looks like a clutch plate.

I ultimately decided that the engine and trans had to come out as a unit, but the steering drag link runs up between the oil pan sump and the flywheel, so it needed to be dropped also. The one good thing is that, being a desert car, even the exhaust bolts came out easily.

The attached photos are old engine out (using a boom pole on my farm tractor) and new motor in. Astute readers will note that the new engine is a Buick 215, not an Olds. Oh well, it will hopefully last until I build the 4.6 liter motor. Now I just need to get it all back together and running by Saturday for our chapter's Spring Dust Off show!

citcapp

Liiks like fun Joe, you'll get it done

jeffreyalman

Joe how closely were F-85s and Corvairs related? I always thought the Tempest and F-85 and Skylarks were all pretty closely related, but what was Chev's version?

Bluevista

Get offline and get to work.
I changed a trans in a '62 Buick Special way back when and the rebuilt one blew some seal in the front in about a second. Never work on girfriend's cars and mess them up, I fixed it but still never heard the end of it.
That thing had a four barrel and it screamed, didn't go anywhere very fast when it was screaming but it made a lot of noise.

ent72olds

I can't wait to see more pics Joe, and also for you to get it running! I guess, if it had been a Chevy engine given, you wouldn't bother using it, correct! Even if it did bolt right in as the Buick did......

1969w3155

Keep posting Joe, like to see how it's progressing.

joe_padavano

The F-85, Skylarks, and Tempests were all based on the Corvair architecture, but the designs diverged. The F-85 and Skylark are virtually identical mechanically, while the Tempest used the front engine but a rear-mounted transaxle based on the Corvair transaxle. I've read that the roof panel on my wagon is the same one used on the Corvair wagons.

jeffreyalman

always reminds me of Marisa Tomei as the expert witness in My Cousin Vinny except for the year, and could the Tempest really have had Pos-i-traction with the trans in the rear?

Vinny Gambini: Ms. Vito, it has been argued by me, the defense, that two sets of guys met up at the Sac-O-Suds, at the same time, driving identical metallic mint green 1964 Buick Skylark convertibles. Now, can you tell us by what you see in this picture, if the defense's case holds water?
[Lisa examines the picture]
Vinny Gambini: Ms. Vito, please answer the question: does the defense's case hold water?
Mona Lisa Vito: No! The defense is wrong!
Vinny Gambini: Are you sure?
Mona Lisa Vito: I'm positive.
Share this quote
Vinny Gambini: How could you be so sure?
Mona Lisa Vito: Because there is no way that these tire marks were made by a '64 Buick Skylark convertible. These marks were made by a 1963 Pontiac Tempest.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Objection, Your Honor! Can we clarify to the court whether the witness is stating opinion or fact?
Judge Chamberlain Haller: This is your opinion?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a fact!
Vinny Gambini: I find it hard to believe that this kind of information could be ascertained simply by looking at a picture!
Mona Lisa Vito: Would you like me to explain?
Vinny Gambini: I would love to hear this!
Judge Chamberlain Haller: So would I.
Share this quote
Mona Lisa Vito: The car that made these two, equal-length tire marks had positraction. You can't make those marks without positraction, which was not available on the '64 Buick Skylark!
Vinny Gambini: And why not? What is positraction?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a limited slip differential which distributes power equally to both the right and left tires. The '64 Skylark had a regular differential, which, anyone who's been stuck in the mud in Alabama knows, you step on the gas, one tire spins, the other tire does nothing.
[the jury members nod, with murmurs of "yes," "that's right," etc]
Vinny Gambini: Is that it?
Mona Lisa Vito: No, there's more! You see? When the left tire mark goes up on the curb and the right tire mark stays flat and even? Well, the '64 Skylark had a solid rear axle, so when the left tire would go up on the curb, the right tire would tilt out and ride along its edge. But that didn't happen here. The tire mark stayed flat and even. This car had an independent rear suspension. Now, in the '60's, there were only two other cars made in America that had positraction, and independent rear suspension, and enough power to make these marks. One was the Corvette, which could never be confused with the Buick Skylark. The other had the same body length, height, width, weight, wheel base, and wheel track as the '64 Skylark, and that was the 1963 Pontiac Tempest.
Vinny Gambini: And because both cars were made by GM, were both cars available in metallic mint green paint?
Mona Lisa Vito: They were!
Vinny Gambini: Thank you, Ms. Vito. No more questions. Thank you very, very much.
[kissing her hands]
Vinny Gambini: You've been a lovely, lovely witness.

71supreme

That has got to be my favorite movie sequence of any movie ever made!

jeffreyalman

me too sorry to highjack Joe, couldn't be helped

joe_padavano

My Cousin Vinny is also one of my favorite movies.

As for my wagon, I've spent every night this past week getting the new motor hooked up and ready to run. My goal was to have it at the Spring Dust Off hosted by our OCA chapter, the Capitol City Rockets (yes, I know that's the wrong use of "capitol" - I didn't name the chapter). The meet was Saturday. By Friday night, I had everything ready to fire the motor except for filling the trans and installing the distributor. I got up early Saturday, filled the trans, pulled the plugs, primed the oil pump (hint, an emergency oil pump priming tool for engines with a blade-style pump drive can be made by hammering the end of a piece of brake line flat!), bumped the starter to find TDC, and stuffed the distributor in. Got very close on the first try.

I put fresh gas in the tank, filled the carb float bowl through the vent with a baster, installed the plugs, and cranked the motor.

And cranked

And cranked

The engine would sputter when I squirted gas in the carb, but wouldn't stay running. Eventually, it did catch, though I had to raise the idle speed to keep it running. At that RPM, I didn't figure it was even worth the time to try to set the timing. Once it would stay running reliably, I jumped in and took it for a spin up and down the farm road. Brakes are marginal at best (not a surprise - I already found the leaking wheel cylinder). Heater valve was leaking coolant. I then drove the car on the trailer and went inside to clean up.

At the show I was able to unload and drive the car to the parking spot. The car was a hit, with opinions split on fixing it or driving it as is. Unfortunately, after sitting there for six hours, I could not get it to stay running to drive back on the trailer to go home, so we pushed it.

The carb has not been touched since I got the car (and probably for 30 years before that), so a rebuild kit is on the way. Also, since the gasket set I got from a friend did not have the metal intake tray gasket, I violated my own rule and RTV'd the heck out of the old one when I swapped the intake to the new motor. Same for the carb base gasket. I'm sure I have a massive vacuum leak. Since one of the intake bolts stripped in the head, the intake needs to come off anyway for a helicoil. New intake and carb base gaskets are also on the way.

Once the car runs reliably, it's time for brakes and wiring fixes. I've got a lengthy list for Carlisle on Friday. The car WILL be at the Nationals this summer.

Here's a shot at Saturday's Dust Off. The blue 62 convertible next to it belongs to Scott Phillips and has a Jetfire motor and four speed.

ent72olds

Joe, not that you asked for my opinion but you know the saying, "they're like chevys, everybody's got one"!....I love the patina and I would love to keep it that way if I could....only problem is, that surface rust will only get worse, and then become pits which will deeper and deeper....resulting in big trouble!

Like I've mentioned before, I love your car!

Aron Nance

Joe: Can't wait to see it at Strubridge! I'm sure you will have the mechanicals in good shape by July. Keep the pictures coming.
Aron

joe_padavano

Quick update:

I've resealed the intake with a new gasket, replaced the cracked vacuum lines, and rebuilt the carb. Not only was one jet completely plugged, but at some point in the past the carb had been rebuilt with the wrong accelerator pump. Since this pump was too large to fit all the way down in the bore, the idiot rebuilder simply left the pump spring off.

Naturally the spring and retainer are not included in the rebuild kit. I have many Q-jet parts carbs but the last time I rebuilt a 4GC was in the late 1970s. Fortunately, the 2GC pump is the same and my friend Scott Phillips came through with a 2GC parts carb. Amazing how much better the car runs now. I've also been chasing down the wiring issues (why does someone just cut the headlight wires???). Front lights now work, backs are in progress.

Yet to do are replace the exhaust manifold gaskets, redo the back brakes, install the wiper motor, and then figure out what else it needs.

jeffreyalman

so admirable to read about this - when I was growing up boating, I always got to hand my Dad tools, then when he was a Cadillac dealer, I went to GM Training Center and took classes and worked in the service department. I actually took apart quadrajets, TH350, and a 76 350 engine and put back together but I can barely change a lightbulb now without cutting myself LOL great to watch!

joe_padavano

OK, I've been trying to put in an hour or two each evening on the 62. The latest victory is that three of the four taillights now function. I'll attack the fourth tonight. Last night I had to remove three decades of mouse nests and turds from the spare tire compartment just so that I could get to the wiring. Now I know where the front seat padding went to. Also, mouse urine is not friendly to electrical connectors.

Fortunately, in the dry desert air these wads of mouse fluff did not get very wet, so there still isn't much rust on the inner panels.

The other good news is that once I cleaned the overspray off the contacts, the motor for the back window started to work. Now I need to open up the tailgate and grease the mechanism. These cars used an unusual design where instead of a continuous wire that flexed along the tailgate hinge line, there were a set of contacts that only touch when the tailgate is closed.

Finally, I've installed the wiper motor but I still don't get power to it. That's next on the list.

Also, the exhaust gaskets are due in by Friday, so hopefully by this weekend the car will be quieted down. I'm getting anxious that I'm missing a number of cruise nights. Still on track to get to the Nationals, however.

citcapp

Stay up later and work a little harder, you'll get it done

joe_padavano

Spend Saturday working on the car. Got all the exterior and interior lights working. Installed new exhaust gaskets, which quieted the car right down. Finally got the wiper motor sorted out as well.

Funny story on the wiper motor. The motor was missing when I got the car. The correct motor for a 62 F-85 should have the armature at a right angle to the output shaft - in other words the armature is parallel to the firewall when installed. The motor I got was allegedly from a 63 F-85. It bolts up to the firewall, but the armature sticks out perpendicular to the firewall, sort of like the square motor wipers used on the 64-67 cars.

In any case, I bolted the motor up to the car, plugged in the connector (which is keyed) and promptly blew the fuse. Took the motor off the car and tried connecting it directly to the battery. Sparks but no motion. I'm guessing the motor is toast. I took it apart and the commutator segments were worn and copper was smeared between them, so I cleaned it up, recut the grooves between the segments, and put it back together. Still sparks but no motion.

Now, every 2-speed GM wiper motor that I've seen (including the one that's SUPPOSED to be in the 62) have three motor terminals. The middle one is power, the RH one is grounded for high speed, and both outside terminals are grounded for low speed. Just for the heck of it, I tried connecting power to the RH terminal.

Naturally, the motor ran.

For some reason, the terminals on this motor are Low, High, and power, from left to right. Since the connector is keyed, I had to swap the terminals in the connector body, but now the wipers work.

I also found and fixed the leak in one tire.

With that, I finally got to take the car on a drive of about five miles. The brakes still need work, so I took it easy, but everything seems to function. The steering is somewhat loose, so I need to look into that now. Oh, and everyone who has ever badmouthed the RotoHydramatic trans is correct. The converter actually locks up in second, so if you are lugging the car it chugs like a manual trans (not surprisingly).

Of course, by the time I got back home, the vibration apparently caused one turn signal to stop functioning...

jeffreyalman

Joe are you going to drive it to the Nats (I hope!)? How about some interior shots! Sounds great!

citcapp

Sounds like your making progress, good luck

joe_padavano

I'll actually be trailering it so my wife can have the truck and not be stuck in Sturbridge the whole week. We'll be staying with my family in Shrewsbury.

Interior photos were posted here:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/138659-post5.html

joe_padavano

I tackled the one front turn/park light that wouldn't work reliably. These housings use a formed steel socket for the bulb that is swaged into an anodized aluminum reflector housing, that has two steel studs that hold it to the mounting points on the car.

Can you say "galvanic corrosion"??!!

Since the ground path for the bulb is through that now rusty, corroded swaged joint, I had to find an alternate. There's no easy way to disassemble the housing to clean the rust - I'd have to remove the socket and swage in a new one - assuming I could even get parts. I finally came up with the idea of soldering a ground wire directly to the metal part of the bulb. Due to the thermal mass, I used a pinpoint butane torch.

I only broke one bulb trying to do this!

The second bulb was successfully soldered. I ran the ground wire directly to one of the screws that holds the lens in place and voila, the light now works. I also replaced all four headlights with halogens. One of the four lights appeared to be an original T-3! I'm obviously saving that one. Reinstalled the heater blower motor at the same time. Funny how the more you drive a car, the better it seems to run.

joe_padavano

Further tribulations on the 62. I rebuilt the stock 4GC carb and I've had a problem with the accelerator pump working sporadically. Sometimes I get gas out the shooters and on the very next pump of the throttle, I don't. I spent quite a bit of time ensuring that the pump lever was adjusted properly, but no luck. I came THIS close to buying a 500 CFM E-brock, but instead I ordered a second rebuild kit and dove into the carb again.

With the top off the carb, I pulled out the accelerator pump and the rubber cup was rolled out of position on the plunger.

I pushed the cup back into shape and put the plunger back in the pump bore. Pushed it down by hand and gas squirts out. Pull the plunger back up and heavy suction causes the cup to roll our of position again.

I look down in the bore and despite having gas in the float bowl, there is nothing in the pump bore. Obviously there's something still blocking the refill passage between the bowl and the pump bore. At least now I don't have to try to figure out how to adapt the throttle valve rod to an aftermarket carb.

Why do these weird problems always happen to me?

On a different note, the stock muffler has a rust hole in it. For those who aren't familiar with these cars, the muffler sits crossways behind the rear axle, just like a Camaro. I just bought a Dynomax Turbo for a Camaro along with the Camaro 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust pipe. Trying to fit that into the stock driveshaft tunnel is my next project.

OLD SKL 69

Joe,

I like your project, very nice. Being that I have a nailhead motor in my Buick, I have to say, your new motor looks very familiar! Maybe you could find a 401 or 425 and drop it in to have a real sleeper!