I have a 1957 Oldsmobile Super 88 with a 1963 Oldsmobile 394 engine in it. I've determined the water pump is definitely leaking so I began the process of getting everything removed. I'm also using this time to upgrade the stock 2 barrel intake/carb to a 4 barrel intake and carb. I removed everything around the water pump and carefully loosened all of the small bolts. Everyone came loose except for one which snapped off immediately with very little pressure. I tried the large bolts that go through the water pump and timing cover to the engine. One turned easily and 2 did not budge. I decided to stop there before I break anything else and see if there are any tricks to this? Is heat advised on the bolts? I'm just leery about using heat because I don't want to change the timing cover gasket at the block. Any input would be appreciated to minimize the number of bolts I need to replace.

 

Try this, Get a can of PB Blaster. this brand has the best penetrating abilities.
Soak the bolts good. Rap on the bolt heads with a hammer a few times.
Do this every day for a week. Try tightening the bolt before loosening.

Be careful with heat, because that aluminum timing cover will melt before the bolt in it gets red hot.

 

This ^^^ and if possible use a closed end wrench on the bolt head and continue rapping on it whilst tightening and loosening in miniscule movements. Patience, patience, patience. Several times tinkering with these types of situations over a week have proven successful.

 

With all old bolts always tighten slightly before you try to loosen you'd have better luck that way than just blatantly trying to loosen the bolt as is

 

x3 on using penetrant. Kroil is another good brand if you can't find PB Blaster.

Spray penetrant on the bolts every day for a week and slightly tighten/loosen the bolts. By the end of the week those bolts will come out of there no problem.

 

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I will give the penetrating fluid and hammer technique a try.

 

Good morning,

Well, I've spent a week spraying the water pump bolts with PB penetrating fluid and rapping on the large bolt heads with a hammer. All of the small bolts are loose (one broke) and 2 of the large ones are loose. The other 3 large bolts have not loosened up. I've tried tightening slightly and then loosening them. I get slight movement in each direction. I put moderate pressure on the ratchet when trying to turn these bolts but I don't want them to break. They do seem like relatively large bolts so is it likely they would break off? This car lived it's whole life in the West/South West so it's not rusty at all. Any other thoughts or should I just keep trying the PB penetrating fluid and rapping on the bolts? Thanks.

 

Those water pump bolts in 63 & 64 394's are subject to corrosion.
There are dis-similar metals ( iron bolt and engine block vs aluminum timing cover and pump )
Add to that, a possibility of someone using water instead of antifreeze. That promotes corrosion.
Add to that, 62 years, And you have a really stuck bolt.

My advice would be to give it another week if you can.
With the same routine.

 

In my opinion, Kroil is better than PB Blaster which is a pretty good product. Kroil should be better because it is a helluva lot more expensive.

 

Wait if you can. Warm them slightly, not a lot and juice them whilst warm and walk away. The warming creates expansion, contraction and wicking of the penetrant. Cautiously rap on the housing too with torque applied. Be careful with the heat to prevent a fire and to prevent damage to the housing. Juice it where the housing meets the block and at the bolt head.

Slight movement is a positive.

Hit the bolt head whilst the torque is applied in both directions.

 

I prefer a mixture of ATF + Acetone (1:1). Spray from a plastic bottle or apply w/ a brush.

 

Have heard that the Acetone ATF mix is the secret sauce, better than commercial penetrating oils.

 

Its pretty hard to wick penetrating fluids horizontally. Liberally applying these fluids near the parting line of two parts can help. Most penetrating fluids contain pretty much the same ingredients. They all add their "secret" aromatic stuff and smell different. Many contain Toulene and similar "petroleum distillates".
For tough stuff, I prefer Hoppe's #9 Gun barrel solvent and an "acid brush".

Quite a while back, Charlie Jones shared the 50/50 mix of ATF and Acetone thats preferred.by car restorers. Its cheap in quantity. But Acetone has some serious liver health risks and should be handled. accordingly in ventilated areas.

Another tip
#1. Put a box end wrench on the bolt head.
#2. Use a "muffler gun" (air chisel) with a flat tool attachment.
#3. Start the air chisel at a low strokes/minute while applying tightening and loosening pressure to the box end wrench.
#4. Increase strokes/minute until the bolt breaks loose and you get one loosening revolution of the bolt.

 

The secret sauce in any ketone is the highly nucleophilic moiety of the carbonyl group e.g. C=O. Acetone is basically a non-toxic chemical. Highly unlikely to cause any serious liver health risks. Acetone is the simplest of all ketones. Acetone is produced biologically in every human being while toluene (the correct spelling) is far more toxic than acetone. Toluene is not produced by any animal. Toluene (an industrial product) is added to gasoline to increase octane ratings and is toxic to the human CNS. Toluene is far, far more toxic to a human being than acetone - primarily as the result of the benzene ring. Exposure to the benzene ring poses a significant increased risk to cancer.

 

I don't much care where you copy and pasted that gibberish from.
https://pages.mtu.edu/~fmorriso/cm3215/acetoneMSDS.pdf
Read:
Page 1 section 3 Hazards Identification.
Page 3 section 7 Handling and Storage
Page 3 section 8 Exposure Controls and Personal Protection

 

You are the only member posting gibberish. Stick to cam duration leave the chemistry alone.

 

Maybe try an electric induction heater on the areas involved to see if that'll help with the penetration liquids. Just a thought that hadn't been expressed.

 

Well, it's been almost 2 weeks....don't think I've ever been this patient with some bolts. Looks like all of the bolts except one are loose. The last one moves a little when I tighten/loosen it. Been spraying it down and tapping on the bolt head so much it's getting tough to get a socket on the bolt. I guess the next step for the last bolt could be using a heat gun to get the part nice and warm and hope that helps.

Side question, will removing all of these bolts cause an issue with the timing cover gasket to the block? I was not planning on changing that as I have to support the engine and that's not really on my agenda right now.

 

Removing just the bolts that hold the water pump on will cause no problem with the timing cover gasket.

 

Great. That is what I was hoping to hear.

On a side note, patience has paid off. I was able to get all of the bolts to come out without breaking any (other than the small bolt that broke on the first day). Everything has come out except one of the large bolts. It has unscrewed from the block but is still being held in the timing cover by rust/gunk etc. It turns slowly but freely. Just trying to work it out and then I can pull the water pump and send it in too be rebuilt.

 

Try wedging a straight bladed screwdriver between the head and the water pump to apply pressure to remove the bolt. At minimum, you need to run a 3/8" bottle brush or bottoming tap in the threaded holes. Be sure to blow out the holes afterwards.

 

Good work! Replace the bolts if available, don't reuse them unless unavailable. If the threads are good on the old bolts clean them thoroughly, lightly oil them using them to clean up the threads in the block.

Be very careful to use the same length bolts.

 

Thanks to everyone for the help with this. I was able to get the last bolt out and the water pump came off. I will be sending it in for a rebuild. The only other issue is how to now get the one broken bolt out. It's one of the small bolts. I've started spraying it with penetrating fluid. I used a small hammer to tap on it similar to the process with the other bolts. I tried some vice grips on it but it does not budge. Just hoping I don't have to drill and tap the hole. Should I try some heat on it? I know I need to be careful of the aluminum cover.

 

Is the cover steel or aluminum ? A magnet will tell you.

 

Why don't you post a picture of the remaining bolt? Might help with some ideas.

 

Basically the same procedure, difference is that the ViseGrip is now the wrench. Since this is a smaller diameter bolt it will break more easily, be extra patient.

If you apply heat to the bolt let it cool completely as it will expand the bolt. When torquing the bolt to remove it warm the housing surrounding the bolt and you could ice the bolt just before applying the torque to shrink the bolt whilst expanding the housing with heat. If you do warm the bolt, tap on it whilst it is warm and expanded.

 

Another method is warm it and melt a crayon or wax candle on the bolt then let it cool. I'd only do this last as the penetrating oil is thinner and more likely to get in the crevices.

 

Here are some pictures of the pump and the broken bolt. The timing cover housing is aluminum.

 

Here is a picture with the broken bolt circled.

 

At least it didn't break of even with the timing cover so you have something to work with. Since the timing cover is aluminum, it will not take much heat. You might have enough to get a stud extractor on. I would start soaking that thing with Kroil and tap on it. Then start working it forward and backward. You could weld a nut on it but it would probably be too much heat for the timing cover.

 

You have some very heavy rust and corrosion. I think you should find some Hoppe's #9 Gun Solvent and use it liberally. If you could rig up some kind of trough to keep the bolt submerged for a few days, it could help penetration of the chemical.
I know of a major airline that kept Hoppe's #9 in stock to use on fasteners in dis-similar materials. You have exactly the same thing.....steel bolt in aluminum housing. You can find Hoppe's #9 in gun shops, hardware stores and probably online..
Kroil is ok and widely used in certain industries.

 

Well, I'm not having much luck with that last broken bolt. Been soaking it daily with penetrating oil and rapping on the head with a hammer. Tried using vice grips and bought a bolt extractor set. The smallest extractor was 6mm and that was not small enough. It could not grip. Does anyone sell a smaller extractor?

Was thinking about applying heat. I know it's aluminum but I was thinking as long as I use a temp gun to check the temp and don't go over 700-800 degrees I should be fine. Plus, I doubt I could even get it that hot with the little hand held torch I have. Thoughts? Thanks.

 

Do you have a MIG welder?
If you do, try cleaning the rust off the stud and welding a nut on the stud.
When it's still hot touch it with paraffin wax.
The super hot paraffin melts quickly and penetrates and loosens very stubborn bolts.

 

Vice grips should work vs an extractor. Do your best to keep the torque in line with the center line of the bolt. It will snap much quicker when torque is off-center.

Yes, if it was mine I'd try controlled heat on the bolt first to make it expand in the hole, juice it and then let it cool completely. Once it cools completely heat the housing surrounding the bolt to expand it and icing the bolt to contract the bolt, rap it with torque applied.

 

I would do as Charlie suggests and weld on a nut.

Its starting to sound like the bolt is bottomed out in the bottom. Its possible that someone didn't have the correct length bolt and ground one shorter.. I think you need to start applying tension to the bolt to remove it. Think slide hammer.

Those bolt and screw extractors usually don't have enough gripping power to loosen a broken bolt. If the bolt broke, its clear that wouldn't have broke if it was that easy to remove.
As you drill the pilot hole bigger, the "bolt shell" becomes thinner and the extractor is driven in more for greater grip, you are actually wedging the "bolt shell" larger and wedging it harder against the threaded hole.
What size bolt are you trying to remove ?

 

I've been applying heat with a torch and then spraying with PB Blaster (monitoring the aluminum temp with a laser temp gun). I wait for it too cool before I try to turn it. No luck so far. As far as welding a nut on, I only have a cheap Harbor Freight 90 amp welder, nothing fancy. Wondering if that would work?

 

I'd try turning the bolt while the aluminum is warm. The goal is to expand the housing with heat and cool the bolt to cause it to shrink. The bolt could be slightly cooled by icing the stub and having the ViseGrips in a freezer just before use so they act as a heat sink.

 

Thanks. Will give that a try today.

 

Keep the force reasonable so as not to break the housing. Strike the bolt inward while under torque. If it feels like the housing ear could break off it may be better to grind the bolt perfectly flush, center punch it, drill it and tap the threads.

 

Well, a big thanks to everyone for their help on this. The heat on the housing and the vice grip in the freezer trick worked. I heated the bolt/housing up, sprayed it with some PB Blaster and clamped on the frozen Vice Grip. I could see the heat warm up the end of the vice grip. I gave it a tighten / untighten motion and I saw movement for the first time. I sprayed it down and and kept working it back and forth little by little and spraying PB Blaster. The broken bolt FINALLY came out!!! It took 28 days of patience....but all the bolts are now out. I will clean out all of the bolt holes now and run a tap through them. I will also try to get new bolts and coat them with anti-seize before reassembling them.