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I have no experience with the 200-4r or any other overdrive transmission with a lock-up convertor: I'm using a re-stalled D5 convertor. I have a little over 1/8" (.160") between the flexplate and the convertor mounting bosses. Should I put washers in between? When I tighten the bolts, the flexplate bends toward the convertor; I expected the convertor to slide out of the pump not the other way around. I put fluid in the convertor when I installed it and I rotated it until I felt it drop in the "extra" step. I checked that the convertor was fully seated by placing a straight edge across the bellhousing face and the convertor was not sticking out past the mounting surface. I've tried prying the convertor forward with a large screw driver but don't want to get too aggressive until I know what's going on. I hope I don't have to pull the transmission out to solve this problem. That would suck! Thanks.
No matter how hard I tried, I could not pry the convertor forward to close the .160" gap between the convertor and the flex plate. It looks like the face of the convertor has a bump in the center that is hitting the hub on the crank. Is this a normal thing with a D5 convertor? The crank is the factory crank that was in the '76 350 engine I rebuilt. The convertor is loose enough that I can rotate it when the bolts are out but there is little to no clearance between the crank hub and the convertor and I'm concerned that I might wipe out the transmission pump if it's too tight. What is the recommended clearance? Shouldn't the convertor be pulled out about 1/8" when bolting to the flex plate? Really need some guidance here.
the convertor snout should slide into the crank, I just checked my PTC convertor and it a very tight fit. You will need to slide it forward.
I don't washer 1/8 but anything above that I will I don't like pulling the convertor out any more than 1/8.
you may also want to check the blot hole size on you flex-plate, because of you post I now know I have to open mine up , thank you it would not have been fun to do in the car.
Nick thanks for the reply. I did some googling and learned about the snout into the crank thing. Is this specific to the lock-up convertors? I don't remember my TH350 convertor having this snout (bump). I think my problem is the snout won't slide into the crank maybe due to a little rust or too much paint. Looks like I will have to drop the trans and clean out the crank hub so it will fit together as designed. This is not the solution I was looking for...
The snout on my 2004r torque convertor is taller and squared off at the top. The 350 /400 ones I have had in the past were alittle shorter and more beveled on top.
My crank has just a bit of surface rust and it doesn't like to go in so any more than that and it wouldn't go in.
Rodney,
You need to stop and find out what the problem is. You should be able to push the converter all the way out until it hits the flexplate. You most likely will have to pull the trans out to figure it out. Is this a totally new converter to the car ? If so do you have the old one to compare it to ? If you cant pull the converter all the way up to hit the flexplate and you try to force it or use spacers you will either hurt the transmission or the thrust bearing in the engine.
Bill:
My car was missing the drivetrain when I bought it, so can’t compare the new converter to the old one. I’m pretty sure my problem is the hub on the converter isn’t sliding into the crank hub. I installed the engine and trans while body was off the frame - it was sooo easy! I wish I had checked this sooner because it would’ve been much easier to remedy with the body off; but I didn’t realize that the converter needs to slide into the crank. Dropping the trans from under the car and working around the headers is not going to.be fun. Thanks for your advice!
Make sure the bore in the crank is free of rust or crud. Make sure there are no burrs or gouges preventing the converter pilot from fitting into the crank. It might help to polish both the bore and the pilot with some sandpaper. Try fitting the converter to the flywheel without the trans.
You don’t want to shim all the space out between the converter and flywheel!! You will destroy the pump and possibly the thrust bearing in the engine. The converter needs room to move, if it has no room, it will make its own!
Matt:
That is exactly what I plan to do - though it's not gonna be fun doing it under the car . Once the convertor fits smoothly into the crank, I plan to push the convertor all the way into the transmission, pull it out 1/8" then shim the rest to the flexplate. Do you agree?
The textbook specification is 1/8-3/16 inch of clearance. In my experience, you can get away with more than 3/16 inch. As long as you don’t pull the converter out of the pump gear tabs, you will be fine. The only way the converter could possibly pulloutof the pump gears is excessive crankshaft thrust endplay, really sloppy machining/assembly during the converter rebuild, or really worn pump gears.
Rodney, Over many years I've never seen a torque converter shimmed back if it would pull up flush which it should to the flexplate.
I get the concern over pulling too far out of the pump but that's how it was engineered. Shimming the converter back toward the pump may create a problem of unanticipated stress points on the flexplate.
Gonna guess you are on the right path in chasing interference between the nose of the converter and the end of the crank. The only other thing that comes to mind is could the flexplate be on backwards.
Good luck, keep at it you'll get it solved. Please post the solution.
Sugar Bear:
I think the flex plate will only go on one way because of the bolt pattern on the crank hub. Regardless, the holes all lined up the convertor just wouldn't slide forward.
Thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions.
What Sugar Bear is talking about is some flexplates can go on either way forward, and most have some offset to the converter mounting surface. So the holes can line up but you end up with way too much or way too little clearance.
Mine is kind of funny. The TH350 converter bolts straight to the plate, but I have to use two hardened washers on each bolt for the TH200-4R converter. Just depends.....
There is a spec out there. The main thing is you want to pull the converter forward a bit (scientific term) so it can expand backwards as it swells. If it's seated all the way back when bolted up then it'll trash the crank thrust bearing and/or the trans pump.
Similarly, it's best if the nose can fit inside the crank. They talk about converter "ballooning" for a reason. 250+psi in a big donut made of sheet metal? It flexes. Even units with anti-ballooning plates still expand. The plates just help limit the expansion.
Sad to say, it's best to drop the trans, pull the converter, and take a close look at the crank tail and converter snout. You can take a die grinder to the crank tail if needed. Get it so the converter can snuggle up in there easily. Lesson for next time - do test fits of converter/crank, trans/engine on the ground when any of those parts is new.
Note that I'm a changed man. I used to always pull the trans and engine together. Buddy got a cheap trans jack from HF, now I always pull the trans separately. We can get the trans out in less than 3 hours now. You can leave all the stuff on the engine. Just remove the distributor cap. You can get the top two bellhousing bolts from the top, or tilt everything down and get them from below with 2 or 3 feet of ratchet extensions. Just remember to free the TV cable before dropping the thing.
I looked at a stock 455 flexplate I have here. It is pretty much flat so even if you did have it on "backwards" it would not affect how the converter bolted up. Another suggestion I have is you really should call the converter manufacturer and make sure the one you got was correct for your combination. They may have put a longer nose on it by mistake for some reason.
Bill:
Thanks for that little tidbit. I bought the trans w/convertor from a Buick GN guy who was swapping in an LS drivetrain. I assumed the transmission builder re-stalled the convertor that came with the trans, but maybe they gave me a different convertor. I asked for a 2500 rpm stall speed, I think stock was about 2000 rpm. Regardless, this convertor was never mated to this crank until now. One thing that I hope isn't going to be a problem for me. I ran the engine a few times with the convertor loose (not bolted to the flexplate) I hope this didn't cause any issues. The convertor was loose and pulled back but I didn't realize there was a "nose" that had to fit inside the crank. It may have been rubbing against the crank hub while I ran the engine. I'm going to try and tackle this tonight after work will and post my findings. I hate posts without endings - happy or otherwise!
OK, I tackled the the unwanted job of pulling the transmission tonight. I've got the car about 20" up in the air on blocks so I have lots of room to work and things were going well until I tried to lower the transmission. The F-ing dipstick/filler tube is preventing the tranny from sliding back enough to clear the flexplate. It's pinched between the firewall and the bell housing. Remember, I'm doing a frame-off restoration and I assembled the engine & tranny onto the frame before setting the body back on the frame so I didn't need to worry about firewall clearance. The 200-4r filer tube attaches to one of the bell housing bolts and stabs up more in the center of the firewall (closer to the distributor) than a TH350 or 400 would. Well, it's in the damn way. I guess I could pull it out of the tranny, but I'm not sure how easy it's gonna be to snake it back into place when I reinstall the tranny. Could I replace the current dipstick with one from a TH350 or 400 to keep it off to the side where it belongs? There's a lot more room off to the side than there is in the middle of the firewall. AARRGG!
Well something's not right here. Here's a pic of the snout on the convertor. I think I screwed up by leaving the convertor loose for my first engine start up. I just didn't want to worry about the transmission on the first start, but I think that was not a good idea. It looks like if I clean up the metal shaving hanging off the snout I can get it to mate with the crank properly. What do you guys think?
I got out my calipers: the inside of the crank hub is 1.690" and it's bare, clean metal (no rust or paint), the convertor hub is 1.707". Looks like I found my problem! Here's a question though: the snout on the convertor is stepped: It's larger at the front and the diameter reduces about 3/16" back - see pic below. The hub is 1.707" at the largest diameter but after the step it's only 1.630" (which should fit inside the crank hub).
The snout feels soft like it's made of aluminum. Could I grind away the larger "step" at the front effectively reducing the whole snout to the smaller 1.630" diameter? Would this weaken the snout or cause a structural issue with the convertor? What is the purpose of the snout? Is it just a centering device to align the convertor on the crank? It sure would be an easy fix to just grind away the step on the snout!!
FWIW, the Lokar dipsticks are *wonderful*. Appropriately priced, but I suspect that like me, you've simply accepted this fate. Also, the case mounting is completely different between a 200 and a 350/400, so you can't swap stock styles.
That is super interesting. I've got my 200 sitting in a corner and a couple of cranks. Will take some measurements.
Also, FWIW, I'm currently using one of the hybrid 12"/10" lockup converters from PATC (10" converter guts with a 12" lockup face and plate) and it's really good.
Rodney,
Do yourself a favor and have the converter properly repaired. Either the place you bought it from or if you have a local place that does converters. My preference would be to send it back to the manufacturer and let them make sure it is ok. Cant say I have ever seen a stepped hub but I dont do a lot of trans work. Might be completely wrong.
I am sure that it is not aluminum. Should be some kind of steel.
Probably dont want to hear this but I would pull the oil filter off and check for metal. Make sure you did not hurt the thrust bearing in the engine. Converter looks like it was jammed in there pretty tight. Could you turn it easily when you were trying to install the bolts ?
Well, this is interesting.
Bore on a 330 crank: ~1.68"
Bore on a new SBO stroker crank: ~1.71"
Snout on a PATC 200-4r converter: ~1.70"
If it was mine, I would start chewing away on that ridge. If it stays solid, then you're golden. I have no idea how much material is actually under there though.
Probably dont want to hear this but I would pull the oil filter off and check for metal. Make sure you did not hurt the thrust bearing in the engine. Converter looks like it was jammed in there pretty tight. Could you turn it easily when you were trying to install the bolts ?
BIll the convertor was not tight when I ran the engine; there was a little play between the convertor and the flexplate and the convertor kind of drooped a little (as in not perpendicular to the crank hub) which I think explains why the snout is only damaged in one spot. I spoke with the trans builder this morning who has confirmed Oddball's measurements. He was scratching his head on the stepped snout as well. I thought it might have something to do with an early '70s crank and a mid '80s convertor, but he has installed the 200-4r in lots of muscle cars that pre-dated production of the 200-4r and has not had this problem. He also told me the snout on the convertor is a solid piece of metal and didn't think I hurt the convertor. He suggested a little emory cloth action to clean-up the inside of the crank hub and to reduce the snout diameter just a little. I will work on this tonight. I will definitely pull the oil filter and look for metal - just to be safe. I only started the engine a few times; dialing in the timing and adjusting the idle air setting on the EFI throttle body. All total I probably ran it no more than 30 minutes and never rev'd it much past 1800 RPM.
BIll the convertor was not tight when I ran the engine; there was a little play between the convertor and the flexplate and the convertor kind of drooped a little
Thats good, should be ok as far as the crank goes. Interesting to see how it all works out.
OK, I tackled the the unwanted job of pulling the transmission tonight. I've got the car about 20" up in the air on blocks so I have lots of room to work and things were going well until I tried to lower the transmission. The F-ing dipstick/filler tube is preventing the tranny from sliding back enough to clear the flexplate. It's pinched between the firewall and the bell housing. Remember, I'm doing a frame-off restoration and I assembled the engine & tranny onto the frame before setting the body back on the frame so I didn't need to worry about firewall clearance. The 200-4r filer tube attaches to one of the bell housing bolts and stabs up more in the center of the firewall (closer to the distributor) than a TH350 or 400 would. Well, it's in the damn way. I guess I could pull it out of the tranny, but I'm not sure how easy it's gonna be to snake it back into place when I reinstall the tranny. Could I replace the current dipstick with one from a TH350 or 400 to keep it off to the side where it belongs? There's a lot more room off to the side than there is in the middle of the firewall. AARRGG!
The TH200-4r dipstick tube fits into a rubber sleeve that fits into the trans housing. Very easy to remove and re-install. The dipstick tube is smooth where it fits into the rubber sleeve. It should not be an issue to remove it while pulling the trans and then to re-install once the repairs are complete.
Rodney, following this thread with interest, as I am just about finished with my 2004R build and had been planning to use the D5 converter that came with the core (after a rebuild). I measured the snout on my converter and it is 1.700" at it's widest - but it's a little different shape than yours:
If the converter is the one that was paired with the trans from the factory (i believe it is) then its from an '85 MCSS. Don't know if this is helpful to you or not. Please keep us posted on your progress. - mark
Mark:
The snout on my convertor was 1.707" and my crank hub was only 1.69". I cleaned up the front of the snout with a round carbide burr, just enough to remove the metal sliver that was hanging off. Then I lightly polished the outside diameter of the snout with some 120 grit emery cloth, and I cleaned up the inside of the crankshaft hub as well. I did a test fit of the convertor to the flexplate and everything fits fine with even some wiggle room to spare. I think my biggest problem was that metal sliver from running the engine without the torque convertor bolted up. I'm waiting on a new TV cable as the one I had on the car was about 12" too long and I figure might as well get one that fits better while the trans is out of the car.
Here's an update: I got the tranny back in the car, with a new TV cable. I pulled the oil filter and cut it open to inspect per BillK's suggestion. The oil was clean & clear when I poured it out of the filter, but after cutting the filter open there was some gray material at the bottom of the filter. It's not shiny, it's dull. The oil is Lucas 30 weight break-in oil with high zinc content. I had the bearings coated by Polymer Dynamics which is a rather imprecise process where they spray a fine mist of the coating onto the bearing surface. When I questioned the process they told me that the coating was only about 0.0004" and any areas that were too thick would "self clearance", so it's possible this gray material is the coating that "self clearanced". The machinist set the bearing clearances at 0.0023". Do I have problem or is this normal after break-in? Here's the pics.
This is the first filter, right? You'll have assembly lube(s), whatever dust and junk found its way into the engine, etc.
As long as you don't have a lot of sparkle and/or chunks, then it's good.
Pouring out oil will always look good, because it pours out from the clean side of the filter. The anti-drain-back valve stops oil from draining out the dirty side when you flip it upside down.
Yes, first filter after assembling the engine and filled with the break-in oil. Seeing all that gray crap at the bottom of the oil filter just made my heart sink a little. I started the engine a few times maybe ran it a total of 30-45 min mostly at idle but a few throttle blips up to around 1800-2000 rpm. Should I drain the break-in oil and refill with fresh oil? I've read conflicting recommendations for new engines with roller cams; some say not to use break-in oil because it hurts the roller lifters, others say just to use a non-synthetic (dino) oil during the break-in period, and still others say to use a break-in oil for the dyno pulls then change it out. I haven't put any load on the engine yet, just ran it in the driveway. Should I leave in the break-in oil until I can drive the car or has the break-in oil served it's purpose by protecting during the first start?
Thanks!
Rodney
Looks ok as far as I can tell from the picture. The grey stuff is probably assembly lube. At the very bottom left of your picture it looks like some metal flakes ? Or is that just a reflection ? Take a box cutter an slice all the way around both ends of the filter so you can pull the paper out. The one in my picture is from a 455 Pontiac engine that is eating the thrust up
Bill:
Do I look for flakes on the inside of the filter media or the outside?
Edit: I figured it out once I removed the pleated filter media. I don't see and sparkly specs, so that's a good thing. Should I drain the break-in oil or leave it in a little longer?
Here's the filter media pics:
I run the break in oil for a couple hundred miles. Go for a nice long cruise on the highway, get it warm, lean on it a little. Think of it like stretching. Get everything working and circulating.
Stick with conventional oil for ~5,000 miles to wear in the rings, then switch to synthetic if you want. This is controversial, but there's stories about rings never seating with synthetic oils, so hey.....
Relax. Hell, I managed to leave the fan shroud unbolted on a break-in run. Shroud fell, broke the fan into pieces, several of which went through the radiator. While going 70mph. Pulled over, cussed a lot, limped it the 4 miles home with water just boiling right out. Never had any adverse effects.
You see no issue with the break-in oil and roller lifters? This is my first engine rebuild and my first roller cam too. Seems like the break-in oil would help seat the rings more quickly but I don't want to muck up my lifters. Thanks for your comments and advice!
Well, I resolved the convertor hub issue but have a new problem; I think the pump in the trans isn't working. There is no movement in any gear and no fluid in the cooler lines. I put 1qt in the convertor, rotated the convertor until it seated into the pump, I measured about 1-1/8" from the bell housing to the 3 convertor pads, once installed I had just a hair more than 3/16" between the convertor & the flex plate. I could rotate the convertor by hand but there was some resistance. I thought I heard a slight squeak when I started the car but I was running open headers so it's pretty loud when the engine is running.
Did I not seat the convertor properly?
. Once the convertor fits smoothly into the crank, I plan to push the convertor all the way into the transmission, pull it out 1/8" then shim the rest to the flexplate. Do you agree?
