Edit: see next message.
Does the fuel level wire actually go through this connector? I'm not convinced it does.
Cue all of the correct "wiring diagram is wrong" replies.
So in that case, where is the fuel level wire routed?

 

Ok it appears it does. I didn't expect the wire to go all the way to the reverse lights to get to top of tank.

I think I have two separate probems.

Fuel gauge does not move for open or short on the sender wire (just sitting around 1/4). I see 8v coming from the gauge when disconnected from the tank.

And the sender wire looks to be reading 1 or 2 ohms at tank. If I'm lucky, that's just a short...

Looks like instrument cluster is coming out again...

 

That's interesting. I remember when I was looking into what was going on with mine, and before I understood how the circuit worked, I also saw like 7-8 volts on the connection at the sending unit which initially confused me as I figured I should see 12V but I think low voltage here is correct. If you want I can mess around with my spare gauges to see what I get? The circuit on mine however worked fine when I grounded, or opened it (gauge would swing) so the issue was a bad tank sending unit. It's almost like your gauge is stuck. If you do need a new sending unit, you can use the '67 Caddy El Dorado unit available from Caddy Daddy. Worked perfect in mine. Fusick is making repros soon but I don't think they're available yet.

By the way, the sending unit wire goes along the rear tail light harness, through a small hole then down underneath and runs along the top of the tank to the sending unit. Assembly manual shows it as well here:

 

So it turns out the gauge was stuck, and that's all that was wrong. The fuel level sender itself works! The reason the sender was showing such low ohms is because the tank was just about empty. I hooked it up on the bench much like ourkid2000's experiments, used contact cleaner, and exercised the thing (with signal) a couple hundred times. Seems to be working now. I hate removing that cluster! Invariably the vacuum lines fall off the headlight switch and I have to figure out which goes where again I left the evil ammeter alone. Perhaps it too is merely stuck. Another day...

 

Awesome! Glad you figured it out. Don't suppose you happened to catch the colors on the inboard cluster connector wires while you were in there?

 

I forgot to, however I ran the borescope up there just now. Hope this helps!




It's hilarious that neither of our cars ammeters agree with the wiring diagram colors nor are they the same.
How far apart are our vin numbers, out of curiosity.

 

So, I'm a bit confused. I'm starting to think I'm missing something. You posted this picture of your inboard cluster connector, right? :



Which seems to match my inboard cluster connector:



But.....what connector is this shown below? I don't recognize it. The Red wire, shown previously, seems to be missing & replaced by a black wire? Am I seeing things all wrong?? Is the bottom of your red wire black or something?



This is my other cluster connector:

 

 

When I decode the build date, mine says 05B which is the 2nd week of May 1966

 

Sorry, I meant the second picture to compare yours to mine. Yes it appears my ammeter uses a black and a black/white wire.

Clarification:

 

Oh wow, ok thanks! Now I get it.

Interesting how yours matches the actual wire colors on the wiring diagram though. I know the cluster connector depiction is wrong though.

I wonder if it has anything to do with mine being a California only model? Who knows. We got some good data though with this thread.

I bet there is a TSB or something in later years that dealt with this because mechanics must have been pulling their hair out when these systems broke.

Would love to see the actual wire colors on a '67 Toro.

 

Can't blame this one on previous owner, but probably not worthy of a new thread. My Qjet was *occasionally* puking fuel out the vent on a cold start, which would cause a stall, and then on restart it'd be fine and run like a sewing machine. Obviously that's quite suspicious. It came as no surprise when it finally got worse. Now it's just puking to the point it throws a bunch of gas on the intake manifold and can't be started..

I had rebuilt it a few months ago and changed the needle and seat. Perhaps some dirt got in somehow... With it stranded in the driveway now, I'm waiting for half decent (not raining) weather to bring the carb inside.

 

Interesting.

Are you going to re-build it yourself? If you do, take a bunch of pictures to post on here if you get a chance. The carb you have (7041312) is the service replacement model rather than the painful original and I'm very curious if it matches the photos I have of another 7041312 that was rebuilt by one of the really good qjet re-builders.

I have pictures of the insides and it doesn't have some of the troublesome '66 Qjet features. There's no opening for the fuel bypass that's normally plugged and the inlet set is screwed in rather than pressed in. I can post my pictures if you would find that helpful.

 

Dirt is the enemy of carburetors and extremely common. Probably one of the reasons manufacturers went to sealed EFI systems long ago.

The short version is that carburetors depend on very finely tuned voids, rods and tubes for fuel metering. If dirt gets in those, if throws off the metering.

The same goes for fuel. I I generally use a fuel filter between the tank and fuel pump - metal, not glass or plastic see-thru - and I also use the stock qjet inlet filter at the front middle of my 170-series qjets. An important part that sometimes gets lost along the way is the spring which holds that second filter in place and prevents dirt from getting to the needle & seat.

If your qjet is puking out the vent, I'm wondering if the accelerator pump shot is blocked - especially on cold start. You pump the pedal, that forces the plunger down, but if the passage is blocked, the gas has to go somewhere - and the fuel vent might be the most convenient exit....

Hope that helps,
Chris

 

Thanks guys. Dirt was indeed the problem. Yes, my stock inlet filter is gone.

I found the cause. The inline filter was cracked internally (I have no idea how or why) so dirt from the fuel tank, and dirt in the filter, and dirt anywhere else in the lines, went directly into the carb, randomly. I pulled the top off, flushed everything, replaced the inline filter and I'm back on the road.

Sorry no pictures this time, but when I did the full rebuild I took some. I'll see if I can find those.

 

Just wondering, so your inlet filter (the one in the front of the carb) had been completely removed? And an additional filter down stream was installed in its place?

I might be over filtering mine, I dunno. I have a new tank pickup sock, plus a WIX steel inline filter placed just before the fuel pump, plus the standard sintered filter in the carb. I also made up all new replacement hard fuel lines and ran new fuel hoses and cleaned the fuel tank.

Anyway, I'm nuts I guess. But yeah, I would love to take a gander at that carb of yours! I dunno why but I am fascinated by the service replacement carbs for these things.

 

Correct, the sintered inlet filter is gone on mine. I don't think you can have too many filters, personally. I'll try to take a video or more pictures. I had to pull the top off the carb yet again. I swapped float needles this time, back to the original one (which did not cause fuel gushing as I recall). The next few cold starts will tell me if this fixed it.

My weird interest in any project car is finding previous owners. Not easy (or impossible) when someone in the chain cleaned out everything at some point!

 

Where can I get one of these spring wire hood helpers? I'm missing the one on the left side, and consequently the hood is fussy opening.

 

Inline Tube has them
​​​​​​https://www.inlinetube.com/products/...0aAgcGEALw_wcB

 

 

Yep, my '66 is a very original and unmolested example. Only one installed, drivers side.

 

Oh! Well that solves that mystery. I ordered one anyway.

I have this issue with the hood. Pull handle, hood pops. But you can't get it open at that point. It is necessary to simultaneously pull the handle while lifting the hood. So it's a two step process, the second of which is not easy. What's going on there? The previous owner said it's a feature...

 

A couple unique mods there. Proper oil pressure indication, tach, manual switch-pitch.

I'm once again battling a stuck fuel gauge needle (sender and wire measures fine), so I wouldn't mind having a fistful of these gauge movements.

 

Once again, have you tried to rejuvenate the lubrication of the hood hinges at the firewall. I'm guessing the original lubrication was probably white grease which tends to dry out over time. Maybe give a squirt or two of WD40 or 3-in-1 Oil to help the hinges be more "flexible" and then work the hood up and down to maybe loosen things up.

Also, the hinge springs could have weakened over time, and that's a pretty hefty hood that you're trying to muscle open. Whatevers going on, your 2nd front hood spring should help even if not original. Good luck.

 

Well it seems I hadn't tried this yet. In my defense, I have 10 vehicles, a couple of which are projects I'm working on concurrently, and I'm sure at least a few of them have had their hinges oiled. Oiling them didn't seem to help the pop at first (it moves much more smoothly though), but then applying some oil on the sides of the catch itself did make it pop up in one "yank" of the release. The left-right alignment of the hood isnt perfect so that catch is doing extra work (and friction). Definitely have to give you credit for "oil the damn thing".

Getting back to my fuel needle getting stuck, perhaps I shall use the same strategy.....

For the next and hopefully final time I pull the cluster to deal with fuel (again) and clock (again), do you have a photos wish-list for anything back there @ourkid2000 ?

 

I'm going to have to replace the gauge coil/movement for the fuel gauge or the whole gauge. There's a lot of wobble in the shaft and it's seemingly gummy inside too. The whole plastic/whatever that holds the movement together is turning to dust. I'm assuming good working correct replacement ones are scarce? If so, I'll just gut an aftermarket gauge that has 90 deg sweep and 0-100 ohm range. ... a sort of heart transplant.

 

Wow - I'm surprised by this process of failure, the gumming up and the "oxidation" of the plastic - who knew?
You might try John Dorcey for a complete gauge unit - 702-690-8077, or toroguy@msn.com - he's got quite a few 1st generation Toro parts cars.
Good luck.

 

Yeah JD in Vegas is the way to go for this. I'm not 100% on this but I am pretty sure that they used the same fuel/temp gauge for all the 1st gen Toros so he should be able to get one easily enough for you. Only the oil press/gen gauge was different in later years.

Thanks for thinking of me though! I'm pretty sure I have gotten everything I need with regards to the instrument panel.

 

Thanks for the lead! He responded very quickly to email and it's on the way!

 

LEDs for the whole dash, and "repaired" the clock for the final time. This is on max brightness. Everything in this car is finally working except I've not attempted to charge the AC...

 

WOW - looks awesome

 

Awesome dude! Great work!

 

Went to the paint store for another car, figured I'd ask about Dubonnet / Riviera Plum / PPG 50722 / GM WA3516 / "U".

Nothing. He couldn't find it in his system. Anyone else experience that? I'm sure I can get the paint somewhere, it just surprised me that a PPG paint store didn't know what to do.

 

I'm guessing that you'll just have to go through their color books and find the closest match. Products change over the years thanks to technology and government regulations, and I'm sure the materials the color codes refer to are long gone. I am surprised that they didn't just offer you a selection of colors based on year and make of the car, but maybe they don't have that sort of crossover. If you can find an original color card from the dealer, that might help match the color at the paint supplier.

 

My speedometer is way off, reading around 10 mph above your actual speed at 40 mph. It looks like it zips up pretty quickly from a stop. Tires are 235/75-R15.

 

I haven't gotten into mine that far yet, but my old Rallye and my 442 both had the wrong speedometer driven gear installed that made the speedo's way off. It took some experimentation to find one that was close enough for me, even though the manual showed the exact color needed for my applications. With tire size being slightly off the original, you may find the recommended gear reads too slow, and the next size up reads too fast, speed-dependent. Since most of my cruising was low speed, I opted for one that gave me the most accurate reading below 50 mph. I used Waze and another GPS speed reading to compare actual versus speedo readings as I went through the process. It's pretty easy to change the driven gear on a Muncie - but I haven't looked up the procedure for the Toro. It can't be too difficult. Driven gears are available everywhere - I bought a selection on eBay.

This might help:

​​​​​​https://www.sccoa.com/faq/speedgr.html

 

The speedometer error is pretty universally acknowledged, and you can try to correct it with a different gear or an inline "gear box." While the speed is off, I've actually measured the odometer for correctness, and it was basically dead-on for the entire length of the PA Turnpike (337 miles, with 235 -75R -15 tires). For me, I'll take mileage accuracy and live with the speed discrepancy since I know what it is and I can use GPS for correct reading if needed.

 

I had to have my 69's speedometer remagnetized, oiled and calibrated to get it in correct speed range. Indicated speed of 70, car was actually traveling about 54. But odometer was dead on by the measured miles we had on US58 back then.

When the old fellow was done with it, it was accurate +-1mph from 30mph to 90mph and I could feel it in the car.

He was pushing 70 yrs old when he corrected that one and worked till he was 75. Used to mess with a cop friend that my speedometers were more accurate than the ones in the cop cars. Their tolerance was +2-3 mph.

On the paint- Chevrolet used that plum color in 1967 and possibly part of 1968. See if the paint jobber can find the Chevrolet formula for Royal Plum Code MM.

 

Ah ok so the speed drum needs calibration. Anyone have details on the process? I'm imagining a spring that returns it to zero has softened up.

 

As many tutorials as youtube has I can't find a good one on how a mechanical speedometer works. Plenty using heavily accented robot English, or talky people who might understand how one works but are incapable of conveying it to a student.

Basically the cable drives the odometer, and in turn spins a rotating magnet inside the speedometer head.

The magnet spins inside a metal cage that drives the actual speedometer needle. Rotation of the magnet induces a magnetic field that spins the cage against a spring and in turn the speedometer needle/dial/roller. If the magnet becomes weak it doesn't drive the cage and needle assembly at proper speed calibration, especially if the speedometer mechanism has got gunked up and dirty inside.

Cleaning, oiling and remagnetizing it will usually correct any speedometer issues. Plenty of people offer "calibration" services to help get you out of a speeding ticket, but I don't know any of them who really understand a speedometer and how to correct one.