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Given the number of horror stories from people who have had shoddy or incorrect workmanship from even highly recommended shops, I hope for your sake that "the work will be done properly". The inability to find a shop capable of that is why I do all my own work.
The rear suspension links are called both control arms and trailing arms. The name is irrelevant. Most shops today only know how to obtain new arms with the bushings already installed and simply swap them out (see the comment about "parts replacers" as opposed to "mechanics"). I'll be amazed if you can find new stock replacement arms with bushings ready to bolt in. Yeah, you can buy aftermarket arms, but not originals. Moog sells the bushings to replace the old ones in your existing arms. Good luck finding a shop that wants to do that, or even knows how to do it correctly without crushing the arms. See the comment above about the "go away price". And yeah, after 166K miles, those bushings are due for replacement. I assume the fronts have been done already? If not, that's the higher priority.
The arms cannot be found, at least one of them (either upper or lower). I've already looked into aftermarket arms years ago (tolerances are not correct). I found someone about five years ago that would do the work. Opted out at that time for I was looking for new arms. The price was more than reasonable, should have had the bushings replaced. I will not use aftermarket arms; none have the correct specifications.
Here is some data for my year car (1986):
* Tasca can do the work and I'm confident of that fact.
Lower Control Arm- 10000063 (ALL MODELS)
Upper Control Arm:
1.) 10000076 - 0 DEG; CODE XR, XN, XP & XX
2.) 10001060 - PLUS 1 1/ 2 DEG
3.) 10001059 - MINUS 1 1/ 2 DEG
*I believe that 10000063 has been superseded by (65) https://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.c.../10081635.html
Tell me where I can locate these precise calibrations. If I just replace front (upper &lower) and rear (upper & lower) bushings, what is the most I'm looking at, at Tasca? And elsewhere? Thank you very much Joe. I wish things were easier, but they're not.
Last edited by synoptic12; June 13th, 2021 at 09:01 AM.
The arms cannot be found, at least one of them (either upper or lower). I've already looked into aftermarket arms years ago (tolerances are not correct). I found someone about five years ago that would do the work. Opted out at that time for I was looking for new arms. The price was more than reasonable, should have had the bushings replaced. I will not use aftermarket arms; none have the correct specifications.
Here is some data for my year car (1986):
* Tasca can do the work and I'm confident of that fact.
Lower Control Arm- 10000063 (ALL MODELS)
Upper Control Arm:
1.) 10000076 - 0 DEG; CODE XR, XN, XP & XX
2.) 10001060 - PLUS 1 1/ 2 DEG
3.) 10001059 - MINUS 1 1/ 2 DEG
*I believe that 10000063 has been superseded by (65) https://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.c.../10081635.html
Tell me where I can locate these precise calibrations. If I just replace front (upper &lower) and rear (upper & lower) bushings, what is the most I'm looking at, at Tasca? And elsewhere? Thank you very much Joe. I wish things were easier, but they're not.
This is the equivalent page from the Oldsmobile parts book. The stock UCA is 10000076. The stock LCA is 10000063. Production cars came with the zero degree arms. The other two are shorter or longer than original for use in cases where the pinion angle of the rear axle needs to be adjusted, usually to accommodate manufacturing tolerances or accident damage. The better solution is to just use the arms you have with new bushings. Moog K6178 bushings fit all eight locations at the rear. They run about $16 a pair at RockAuto.
* Tasca can do the work and I'm confident of that fact.
My bet Tasca WILL do the work, and I'm confident of that fact. Because no matter the cost, and no matter what typing we do telling you all about how to do it, and what to look out for, you're just going to have them do it anyway. So save yourself some time (not money) and ask Tasca to give you an estimate on replacing the bushings.
For others that will actually do the job, you will not find the upper/lower trailing arms new any longer except maybe NOS on the secondary market. And if you did, you probably wouldn't want some of them because near the end they were putting those crappy "waffle" bushings pre-installed and they suck, so you'd be changing bushings out anyway. And if you don't know which arms you already have, you'll have no idea which arms you'd need to find. GM "adjusted" pinion angle by using the different hole to hole length arms, hence the different two letter codes. You do not want to mix and match these. If you had an actual build sheet for your car, those 2 letter codes for the trailing arms are on there and would tell you what they are without having to crawl under the car to look. Unless they're bent or severely rusted, I would just replace just the bushings anyway.
There's a set of NOS lower rear arms on ebay with the right, solid style bushings already installed, but they're $350 plus shipping.
Bushings are about 57 bucks at Rockauto.com for the front upper/lowers. Rears are about 60 bucks for upper/lowers. Might want to check the ball joints too since everything is going to have to come apart up front anyway to replace the bushings. That's another roughly 60 bucks. So you'd have about 180 bucks thereabouts in parts just to do it all right while it's down by using Moog parts. GM parts are relatively the same price. Plus the cost of a front end alignment when you're done at least. Once the bushings puts things back in the right place again, you'll likely need the alignment.
Obviously, it'll drive much better and ride better when it's done.
My bet Tasca WILL do the work, and I'm confident of that fact. Because no matter the cost, and no matter what typing we do telling you all about how to do it, and what to look out for, you're just going to have them do it anyway. So save yourself some time (not money) and ask Tasca to give you an estimate on replacing the bushings.
For others that will actually do the job, you will not find the upper/lower trailing arms new any longer except maybe NOS on the secondary market. And if you did, you probably wouldn't want some of them because near the end they were putting those crappy "waffle" bushings pre-installed and they suck, so you'd be changing bushings out anyway. And if you don't know which arms you already have, you'll have no idea which arms you'd need to find. GM "adjusted" pinion angle by using the different hole to hole length arms, hence the different two letter codes. You do not want to mix and match these. If you had an actual build sheet for your car, those 2 letter codes for the trailing arms are on there and would tell you what they are without having to crawl under the car to look. Unless they're bent or severely rusted, I would just replace just the bushings anyway.
There's a set of NOS lower rear arms on ebay with the right, solid style bushings already installed, but they're $350 plus shipping.
Bushings are about 57 bucks at Rockauto.com for the front upper/lowers. Rears are about 60 bucks for upper/lowers. Might want to check the ball joints too since everything is going to have to come apart up front anyway to replace the bushings. That's another roughly 60 bucks. So you'd have about 180 bucks thereabouts in parts just to do it all right while it's down by using Moog parts. GM parts are relatively the same price. Plus the cost of a front end alignment when you're done at least. Once the bushings puts things back in the right place again, you'll likely need the alignment.
Obviously, it'll drive much better and ride better when it's done.
Thank you very much for the information. I'll certainly ask an estimate first. If the bushings are o.k., I may forego the installation. I called Firestone just for the heck of it. They wanted $1100.00, $135 for the bushings (Moog), 6 1/2 hours labor and the labor rate is $136.00. Highly unlikely I'll be adding any new arms. What would be a reasonable price with installation?
You are absolutely correct in not acquiring the arms any longer. As you make mention, the pinion angle is the key. i could not find any aftermarket arms with the exact specifications of the O.E.M. If adjustment is required, I'm not keen on that at all; too many calculations for what people are around today. The race crowd is certainly capable but they're all busy. You are highly adept with these facts for I know of them. Sometimes, it really gets disheartening locating parts, at least those that fit correctly. Most likely at this point, if the bushings are o.k i just may let them stay. I could always drive down to see Joe or someone willing to assist. Thank you very much for the courtesy.
Last edited by synoptic12; June 13th, 2021 at 01:48 PM.
This is the equivalent page from the Oldsmobile parts book. The stock UCA is 10000076. The stock LCA is 10000063. Production cars came with the zero degree arms. The other two are shorter or longer than original for use in cases where the pinion angle of the rear axle needs to be adjusted, usually to accommodate manufacturing tolerances or accident damage. The better solution is to just use the arms you have with new bushings. Moog K6178 bushings fit all eight locations at the rear. They run about $16 a pair at RockAuto.
Thanks very much Joe. Depending on the condition of the bushings, I'll decide. Tasca made no mention of the bushings upon inspection. I just thought seeing it was in, I'd look at the bushings. I would only believe that Tasca would have informed me if the bushings were bad or in need of replacement. So, if I had to replace front and rear what am I looking at in price? Not any have given the price. I'm not set on having the bushings replaced but each day, and each month and year, the people capable of doing this work are disappearing. I cannot take on that job, just too much for me.
I called Firestone just for the heck of it. They wanted $1100.00, $135 for the bushings (Moog), 6 1/2 hours labor and the labor rate is $136.00. Highly unlikely I'll be adding any new arms. What would be a reasonable price with installation?
2X on the parts is probably about right for their markup and profit. 6 1/2 hours is probably about 2X what it really takes to do that job, ASSUMING you don't have problems with rusted bolts. That could easily make it six hours or more. $136 seems high for an hourly shop rate, but I really have no experience there.
2X on the parts is probably about right for their markup and profit. 6 1/2 hours is probably about 2X what it really takes to do that job, ASSUMING you don't have problems with rusted bolts. That could easily make it six hours or more. $136 seems high for an hourly shop rate, but I really have no experience there.
Thanks very much Joe. I truly believe that you have more mechanical aptitude than I. I'm not without knowledge, yet some tasks I cannot take on. I'll call Midas and get a quote tomorrow and Tasca. I've dealt with Midas before and they do have someone that corrected my exhaust as to the springs at the manifold. The bolts were subject to snap but they did not. If I told you how I got into cars, not any would appreciate the details. Sometimes, I believe it could be payback whereby the scale is equal. God likes an equal balance. I'm not complaining, I just look further than most. The bolts should be o.k. The car is always garaged and I did apply some lubricant some years back on the bolts. I may have sprayed the bushings, unsure. I believe that the bushings were not to be lubricated, again unsure. Whatever the details were at that time, I followed them. I would only believe that Tasca would have made mention of the bushings if they needed to be serviced. The bushings are crucial to the front end. I thought of the bushings because I did not wish to have the car aligned (twice). I'll call tasca tomorrow for them to look at it and get a consensus. The arms are surely not rotted.
* Hey Joe, this guy 69HO43 really knows this stuff. I know because the details are correct. I thought those specs would be with you. I know him not at all but he surely seems to be a highly knowledgeable person, and most of all, his character is without question.
Last edited by synoptic12; June 13th, 2021 at 02:31 PM.
This is what a bad set of front-end bushings look like. Granted, this is off my 1971 CS convertible, but this is what a damaged set of bushings like like after nearly 50 years. This is the UCA passenger side.
This is what a bad set of front-end bushings look like. Granted, this is off my 1971 CS convertible, but this is what a damaged set of bushings like like after nearly 50 years. This is the UCA passenger side.
Thanks much. They look nothing like that at all, in terms of wear.
2X on the parts is probably about right for their markup and profit. 6 1/2 hours is probably about 2X what it really takes to do that job, ASSUMING you don't have problems with rusted bolts. That could easily make it six hours or more. $136 seems high for an hourly shop rate, but I really have no experience there.
The time a tech can do the job does not matter, shops charge book time.
What the labor book/software states the for the job is what they bill you for.
They also know, that once apart, it might need more parts, and a car sitting on a lift waiting on parts, ties up a bay.
Time is money, Older cars tend to need parts once apart. and the local parts store most likely won't have it on the shelf.
I'd have what ever shop the O/p picks to do the work. inspect it first, before they pull it apart. and have them form a list of parts they forsee needing. and have them order them and have them on hand , So when you have it done, they don't find it needs x part and it take a day to get itas the local parts store and thier local hub warehouse doesn't have it.
Last edited by Grayghost; June 13th, 2021 at 04:53 PM.
The time a tech can do the job does not matter, shops charge book time.
What the labor book/software states the for the job is what they bill you for.
They also know, that once apart, it might need more parts, and a car sitting on a lift waiting on parts, ties up a bay.
Time is money, Older cars tend to need parts once apart. and the local parts store most likely won't have it on the shelf.
I'd have what ever shop the O/p picks to do the work. inspect it first, before they pull it apart. and have them form a list of parts they forsee needing. and have them order them and have them on hand , So when you have it done, they don't find it needs x part and it take a day to get itas the local parts store and thier local hub warehouse doesn't have it.
I understand the flat rate manual, and that was exactly my point about the bolts.
Well, some good news. Tasca said I do not need control arm bushings (Front or Rear). They already looked at the entire undercarriage and will further update me should they see anything. I inquired of preventative maintenance and they said, "You don't need them, no cracks or deterioration". I go to Tasca for they check everything and if there is a problem with any facet of the said issue, they'll bring that to my attention. As I said earlier, Tasca has never lied to me and been forthright. In the automotive business, one can only hope to receive this type of management. However, at Tasca, they bring the best benchmark precision I've seen. Maybe, the cost may be excessive for some but their work is beyond measure. A great many dealerships or automotive repair facilities would validate the consumers wish in replacing something they need not.
In this respect, I'm more than pleased with Tasca. Naturally, I care not to fork out $2500.00 but it's better than bringing the vehicle to people believing they can fix everything. Then, one is always going back for second and third visits to correct a problem that was never done right. Uprightness goes a long way with me, as many feel I've been ripped off. I do not see it that way at all. I'll keep everyone informed on the progress.
Personally, I am a little confused why you bothered to ask anyone's opinion about price in the first place. From your posts it is pretty clear that you would have had Tasca do it regardless of their fee or the estimate anyone here gave which is exactly what you did. So why did you bother asking the question in the first place? To be clear, if you are happy with the work, and are comfortable with the price that's great, but with this in mind the ONLY opinion on an appropriate price that mattered was Tasca's as they are the ones doing the work.
Last edited by Loaded68W34; June 14th, 2021 at 09:01 AM.
Personally, I am a little confused why you bothered to ask anyone's opinion about price in the first place. From your posts it is pretty clear that you would have had Tasca do it regardless of their fee or the estimate anyone here gave which is exactly what you did. So why did you bother asking the question in the first place? To be clear, if you are happy with the work, and are comfortable with the price that's great, but with this in mind the ONLY opinion on an appropriate price that mattered was Tasca's as they are the ones doing the work.
I have been thinking the same thing...
"Why is this guy asking our opinion on stuff, when he's just going to do what Tasa says, and pay the price anyway?"
If you own a classic car, you need to learn the basics.
Most of this is pretty basic stuff that a lot of us car guys learned when we were 15 or 16 years old.
Granted, at my age, there are some things I'll gladly pay a shop to do, but brake jobs, and wheel bearings are so easy, a caveman could do it.
Control arm bushings are no joke...
Broken bolts can make a couple hour job turn into an all day job.
Bushings stuck in the arms may require a hydraulic press, or even a torch to get out.
Personally, I am a little confused why you bothered to ask anyone's opinion about price in the first place. From your posts it is pretty clear that you would have had Tasca do it regardless of their fee or the estimate anyone here gave which is exactly what you did. So why did you bother asking the question in the first place? To be clear, if you are happy with the work, and are comfortable with the price that's great, but with this in mind the ONLY opinion on an appropriate price that mattered was Tasca's as they are the ones doing the work.
Threads like these never end well, as some areas of the country labor rates at a mom/pop shop is a LOT lower than Rates in other areas,
Tasca is in R.I. and Mass. So the labor rates will be high, The guy in Idaho that has Billy bobs auto repair that has a Shop rate of 45.00 an hour will think the 135.00-165.00 shop rates highway robbery. A shop in R.I. that charged 45.00 an hour would be hard pressed to stay in business.
If I was a guy that could not do the work myself, I would ask if anyone knew the shop TIME the job pays to do it without any issues.
i.e. the new bearings job pays 1.5 hours. New front brakes with new rotors, install new bearings pays 1.80 hours . New brakes pads, turn customers rotors, and install new bearings pays 2.4 hours ect. As the shop rates are by area, and dealerships will always be more than the local mom/pop auto repair shop.
The fct that they have to pull the rotors and brakes to install the bearings is why I said do the front brakes while it is apart.
If this isn't the o/p's daily driver, jobs like this is a good way to learn how to do them, get a shop manual and have at it, A 159.00 tool set is all you need to do most anything on a G body. Biggest headache is these cars g.m. was in flux of using SAE thread/size bolts, and metric with no ryme or reason to where or why.
Nothing against Tasca, they have been around decades, BUT are a new car dealer and shop rates would be high. I would have asked around if folks he knows had a shop they went to and liked/trusted. Small shops rates tend to be lower, and they want to EARN your return business, once you find a good one it can be like finding gold.
Threads like these never end well, as some areas of the country labor rates at a mom/pop shop is a LOT lower than Rates in other areas,
Tasca is in R.I. and Mass. So the labor rates will be high, The guy in Idaho that has Billy bobs auto repair that has a Shop rate of 45.00 an hour will think the 135.00-165.00 shop rates highway robbery. A shop in R.I. that charged 45.00 an hour would be hard pressed to stay in business.
If I was a guy that could not do the work myself, I would ask if anyone knew the shop TIME the job pays to do it without any issues.
i.e. the new bearings job pays 1.5 hours. New front brakes with new rotors, install new bearings pays 1.80 hours . New brakes pads, turn customers rotors, and install new bearings pays 2.4 hours ect. As the shop rates are by area, and dealerships will always be more than the local mom/pop auto repair shop.
The fct that they have to pull the rotors and brakes to install the bearings is why I said do the front brakes while it is apart.
If this isn't the o/p's daily driver, jobs like this is a good way to learn how to do them, get a shop manual and have at it, A 159.00 tool set is all you need to do most anything on a G body. Biggest headache is these cars g.m. was in flux of using SAE thread/size bolts, and metric with no ryme or reason to where or why.
Nothing against Tasca, they have been around decades, BUT are a new car dealer and shop rates would be high. I would have asked around if folks he knows had a shop they went to and liked/trusted. Small shops rates tend to be lower, and they want to EARN your return business, once you find a good one it can be like finding gold.
Thanks very much. You forgot the tie rod, spindle, and steering knuckle; plus grease. You are right on target regarding rates varying in different sectors of the U.S. The work was performed better than I expected. Drives straight, no noises , and the brakes are excellent. Front end alignment did make a world of difference, as new races were installed with the wheel bearings (inner and outer), along with new shims to align the car. Believe it or not, I never learned brakes nor was ever interested. As far as cost, well that is part of life. The bottom line is the performance and again, I'm more than satisfied with the work. Tasca took off $100.00. You make mention of the S.A.E. and Metric bolts which I'm more than familiar with. That aspect I could never understand and I delved into those specs when the car was virtually new. I cannot recall the reason, 'if any'. I visited the Olds' engine assembly plant as part of the tour with the 100th Anniversary of Oldsmobile in 1997, "Actually the death of Oldsmobile". When I saw the internals of the motor, I was somewhat disheartened as to the ragged parts, not polished or finished. But, that is how money is generated to the benefit of any business, 'cutting corners'. To get someone to do the work properly is more than a task today, then the parts come into another realm in locating them. The G body has a few suppliers with some parts, so all is not really lost. I still prefer the old over the new. All new cars are absolute junk. Now, the electric vehicles are being pushed which is something I will never partake in. Thanks very much for your insight and assistance.
Last edited by synoptic12; June 16th, 2021 at 09:58 AM.
June 13th, 2021, 06:06 AM
