Engine Build: 434ci SBO 350 built by Mark R.
March 23rd, 2019, 03:28 PM
#42
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The intake and head would be the first choke areas, then the camshaft.
I’ve said this many times, if you look at the runner and plenum size on the RPM they aren’t that big. I’ve argued for years to use that intake over the regular Performer even for mild builds.
I have another Stroker I’ll be doing over the summer.
It’ll have better heads, more cam and a Victor. That will be the tell all.
Last edited by cutlassefi; March 23rd, 2019 at 06:24 PM.
March 23rd, 2019, 06:36 PM
#43
Hookers under Hood
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We can all throw a quarter in so Vortec... can afford to buy himself a good "ol' school" Texas Instruments calculator since his operating system here just isn't up to the task.
We should send him one with batteries thou, cuz solar power may not operate in his dark room.
[QUOTE=cutlassefi;1162207]
Who cares about him.
Put-er-ther !!
We certainly don't care!
Let him ask all the questions he wants, nobody cares to answer his posts, nor do we need to read any answers to his posts going forward.
Last edited by 76olds; March 23rd, 2019 at 06:53 PM.
March 23rd, 2019, 06:57 PM
#44
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Who cares about him.
The intake and head would be the first choke areas, then the camshaft.
I’ve said this many times, if you look at the runner and plenum size on the RPM they aren’t that big. I’ve argued for years to use that intake over the regular Performer even for mild builds.
I have another Stroker I’ll be doing over the summer.
It’ll have better heads, more cam and a Victor. That will be the tell all.
March 23rd, 2019, 07:13 PM
#45
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Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
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Who cares about him.
The intake and head would be the first choke areas, then the camshaft.
I’ve said this many times, if you look at the runner and plenum size on the RPM they aren’t that big. I’ve argued for years to use that intake over the regular Performer even for mild builds.
I have another Stroker I’ll be doing over the summer.
It’ll have better heads, more cam and a Victor. That will be the tell all.
"But I'll give in a bit, the next one I do I'll try to provide VE numbers" CutlassEFI
Lets see them, all the data, thanks.
March 24th, 2019, 01:08 AM
#46
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Vortec... I have heard...
Internal/external itching can really become bothersome EH.
Lord Tunderin'... could it be your PH levels getting high again? Being in the dark for long periods can really attribute to these conditions. I think I read where, Canesten can help get rid of an itch, maybe even an imbalance? but please... Just in case I missed something, prime the area and read the label before your next pull.
Internal/external itching can really become bothersome EH.
Lord Tunderin'... could it be your PH levels getting high again? Being in the dark for long periods can really attribute to these conditions. I think I read where, Canesten can help get rid of an itch, maybe even an imbalance? but please... Just in case I missed something, prime the area and read the label before your next pull.
March 24th, 2019, 01:58 AM
#47
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Not taking anything from cutlassefi, but has it really been so long since cutlassefi himself was questioning coolant temps that other guys supposedly used on their dynopulls since they werent showing them?
This bash-fest is just plain stupid, for sure there is space for other ways to build too and not single truth.
To put it other way, questioning things is only good in my opinion. Btw, nice engine.
This bash-fest is just plain stupid, for sure there is space for other ways to build too and not single truth.
To put it other way, questioning things is only good in my opinion. Btw, nice engine.
Last edited by Inline; March 24th, 2019 at 02:21 AM.
March 24th, 2019, 05:51 AM
#48
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Not taking anything from cutlassefi, but has it really been so long since cutlassefi himself was questioning coolant temps that other guys supposedly used on their dynopulls since they werent showing them?
YES because I had already seen one sheet that showed the temps. I knew they were running them cold. One builder said it was to keep the oil temps in check. That’s bs, we have a fan down in the dyno cart that helps control that. A simple fix.
This bash-fest is just plain stupid, for sure there is space for other ways to build too and not single truth.
To put it other way, questioning things is only good in my opinion. Btw, nice engine.
YES because I had already seen one sheet that showed the temps. I knew they were running them cold. One builder said it was to keep the oil temps in check. That’s bs, we have a fan down in the dyno cart that helps control that. A simple fix.
This bash-fest is just plain stupid, for sure there is space for other ways to build too and not single truth.
To put it other way, questioning things is only good in my opinion. Btw, nice engine.
Last edited by cutlassefi; March 24th, 2019 at 05:56 AM.
March 24th, 2019, 05:58 AM
#49
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VP I asked the dyno owner and the VE channel is not setup on his 902, but you can call Superflow and they will tell you how to calculate it from the info given. I will post fuel flow and bsfc numbers as well as the weather correction. If you can’t get what you want from that then you need to go back to school. It’s all simple math.
Last edited by VORTECPRO; March 24th, 2019 at 06:04 AM.
March 24th, 2019, 09:05 AM
#52
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March 24th, 2019, 09:49 AM
#53
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Yes, It shouldn't happen in every engine build thread such as this . This is not a "DRAG RACING" thread for 1.
Plus, Classic Olds isn't a racing site either, we have a section on this to post in if this would be more a strip/competition build.
Its funny, I find guys that come on wanting to see all this data are the ones that have screwed people over themselves. Those type of guys, have nothing better to do and simply cannot do better but to splash some words and numbers around to make people feel he (Vortecpro) is full of honesty and genuinely cares about us members.
Nope, the trust in you VT is never going to happen here man!
Mark provides all of us here with sound advice and continuous support for our Olds engines.!
Taking this further, Mark, doesn't have to supply any Dyno information with his builds, Most shops don't . He offers this service to provide us with the added information he knows we like to see.
Does he have to offer this?? NO
He takes the time to do this for us street guys because he wants us to be happy with his builds along with his awesome customer service skills.
Try to find another Olds builder that can offer this much guidance and documentation to their customers at his prices.
Most engine shops that build street/strip engines don't even run them in...customers do the breakin' after install, forget asking for a Dyno report, its just a street/strip engine.
Vortec... to come in here and muck up everyone's engine build threads are not necessary, nor welcomed.
Find something else to do with your time man!
Jus' sayin!
Eric
Plus, Classic Olds isn't a racing site either, we have a section on this to post in if this would be more a strip/competition build.
Its funny, I find guys that come on wanting to see all this data are the ones that have screwed people over themselves. Those type of guys, have nothing better to do and simply cannot do better but to splash some words and numbers around to make people feel he (Vortecpro) is full of honesty and genuinely cares about us members.
Nope, the trust in you VT is never going to happen here man!
Mark provides all of us here with sound advice and continuous support for our Olds engines.!
Taking this further, Mark, doesn't have to supply any Dyno information with his builds, Most shops don't . He offers this service to provide us with the added information he knows we like to see.
Does he have to offer this?? NO
He takes the time to do this for us street guys because he wants us to be happy with his builds along with his awesome customer service skills.
Try to find another Olds builder that can offer this much guidance and documentation to their customers at his prices.
Most engine shops that build street/strip engines don't even run them in...customers do the breakin' after install, forget asking for a Dyno report, its just a street/strip engine.
Vortec... to come in here and muck up everyone's engine build threads are not necessary, nor welcomed.
Find something else to do with your time man!
Jus' sayin!
Eric
Last edited by 76olds; March 24th, 2019 at 09:55 AM.
March 24th, 2019, 03:02 PM
#54
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Eric,
Thank you very very much!
I'm attaching the sheets requested, except the VE. As mentioned it was not taken.
For all - to rely on VE is foolish, it's a small part of the whole equation. Let me explain.
Take two identical engines, same displacement, same identical flow throughout. However 1 has less frictional losses because of a better piston, ring pack etc. That engine, thru all software programs will show a better VE because it made more power, even though the airflow, or VE, is exactly the same for both. Why? Because a dyno and other software programs use a set frictional factor or loss and have no variable for friction, other than to alter the displacement.
VP - you have to enter the bore and stroke when you dyno right? You can cheat if you enter a different displacement because the program is based on frictional losses right? But if you better those losses it has no idea what you did does it? That's one reason why VE is a small part of the whole equation. You can influence that one way or another without changing the actual VE at all.
VP let's make sure everyone here knows that your level of "Dyno Expertise" is questionable at best. You got your butt handed to you in the first few pages on ROP when you posted that you couldn't figure out my dyno sheet. Many said it made total sense. And you didn't even know that hp was nothing more than a mathematical equation based off torque vs 5252 rpm did you. And you're going to question me? WOW.
This will be my last post on this subject, and I'm only doing it so others can grasp the entirety of what's on these sheets. VP, you have no clue.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/s...d.php?t=189127
P.S. Kris has dynoed almost 200 engines at Matt Scranton Racing over the last 8 years. I know him personally and he doesn't care about the VE either. Never once has he asked Matt to show it. I think he’s done pretty well without it wouldn’t you say?
Last edited by cutlassefi; March 25th, 2019 at 06:33 AM.
April 24th, 2019, 05:10 PM
#58
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Example:
Olds 470 Stocker 10.84 @ 3700 pounds (verified) 508 dyno HP, 575 TQ
1.08 HP per inch
1.22 TQ per inch
Cutlass EFI 434 unknown perforformance
1.21 HP per inch unverified
1.31 TQ per inch unverified
Common sense says you have to question the 434 dyno data. Simply your customer can prove your point by going to a drag strip and running 122 MPH over 1320 feet.
Last edited by VORTECPRO; April 24th, 2019 at 05:28 PM.
April 24th, 2019, 09:55 PM
#59
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What is wrong with your head Dood? I was under the impression that a dynomometer, AKA, a dyno, was a calibrated tool that verified the horsepower and torque output of an engine. Why would common sense require a person to question the results of the tool that is designed and built to gauge the results of an engine's power performance? That is like buying a quality torque wrench , questioning the results, and tightening your main cap bolts by hand because it feels right. Trying to verify engine power at a track is subject to atmospheric changes, vehicle/traction variables, and possibly broken parts. Dyno results are hard data that can be broken down and corrected for temperature, altitude, or any number of other variables but the actual engine output is stone cold hard data. Track data is subject to vehicle and human error.
Last edited by cjsdad; April 24th, 2019 at 09:59 PM.
April 25th, 2019, 06:29 AM
#60
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What is wrong with your head Dood? I was under the impression that a dynomometer, AKA, a dyno, was a calibrated tool that verified the horsepower and torque output of an engine. Why would common sense require a person to question the results of the tool that is designed and built to gauge the results of an engine's power performance? That is like buying a quality torque wrench , questioning the results, and tightening your main cap bolts by hand because it feels right. Trying to verify engine power at a track is subject to atmospheric changes, vehicle/traction variables, and possibly broken parts. Dyno results are hard data that can be broken down and corrected for temperature, altitude, or any number of other variables but the actual engine output is stone cold hard data. Track data is subject to vehicle and human error.
April 25th, 2019, 08:16 AM
#62
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9in is already installed, with some major suspension and frame upgrades.
A TH400 is being built when the new engine gets installed, along with new driveshaft, etc.
April 25th, 2019, 01:07 PM
#63
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And with zero atmospheric data supplied, and zero calibration data supplied I question the outrageous TQ numbers. You have no idea where those numbers come from. Track testing will give a good indication of HP, conditions can be corrected. Bottom line, the dyno is out of calibration, and the people that use that dyno have no desire to fix the problem.
Let’s put all this in perspective.
You have a problem with the tq number but not the hp. That makes sense, because you’re the same “dyno expert” that didn’t know that hp was nothing more than a
mathematical equation derived from tq. Hmmm
Secondly you contend that two vehicles, say one a ‘72 Corvette, the other a ‘72 Cutlass would achieve the same trap speeds with identical drivetrains, drivers etc, no matter what, even though the Cutlass has the aerodynamics of a brick, interesting.
I’m with Bernard, you don’t race Dynos etc. But if you’re in doubt of these numbers, fine. Build the exact same engine and see what you get. Then put it in the previously mentioned Corvette and Cutlass and let us know what you find.
April 25th, 2019, 04:34 PM
#64
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Bernard
"You don't race Dyno's and Flow benches!"
When has any Mondello went fast at a drag strip? Let me clarify that statement, what exactly I'am talking about is 1. NA NHRA class racing 2. NA heads up drag racing, I've never seen it, but please correct me if I'am wrong. Flow bench development far out ways any tool in my shop as far as HP production goes in my opinion. When my engines come off the dyno and are run in my car, dyno HP is always shown, in other words I know pretty close what the car will run from dyno testing data. My back to back dyno testing with Super Flow calibrating both dyno's, we tested a 505 on my dyno,then packed it up and shipped the 505 to Westec, the power difference was 1 HP between the two dynos on a 670 HP engine. When Super Flow dyno's are calibrated they are extremely close when comparing data. I build the same exact engines over and over, development time spent on the flow bench refining ALWAYS delivers the best HP every time.
https://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-...h-today-9.html
Last edited by VORTECPRO; April 25th, 2019 at 05:21 PM.
April 25th, 2019, 05:08 PM
#65
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"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest!"
If you can't believe the truth, if you can't believe the factual numbers as they have been presented, what is left?
April 25th, 2019, 11:22 PM
#66
Unfortunately the dynos are not really the truth. What they car puts on the board at the track is the real deal. People wanna brag the dyno numbers but the reality is a well set up 350 HP engine can smear a 450 HP engine at the track if that 450hp engine is not in a chassie set up to use it efficiently. Set up, tuning and a slew of variables are at play so you ultimately have to take the dyno numbers with a grain of salt. Unless you plan to exploit the HP made on the dyno to its fullest in the chassis then it's not much to boast about. HP numbers to the average guy are just something a salesman uses. I see lots of dyno sheets posted with no E\T to back it up along the way. Just my 2 cents. That's not to say track numbers are also the end All be all. Tail winds can skew things up along with driver skill.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 25th, 2019 at 11:25 PM.
April 26th, 2019, 04:36 AM
#67
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Unfortunately the dynos are not really the truth. What they car puts on the board at the track is the real deal. People wanna brag the dyno numbers but the reality is a well set up 350 HP engine can smear a 450 HP engine at the track if that 450hp engine is not in a chassie set up to use it efficiently. Set up, tuning and a slew of variables are at play so you ultimately have to take the dyno numbers with a grain of salt. Unless you plan to exploit the HP made on the dyno to its fullest in the chassis then it's not much to boast about. HP numbers to the average guy are just something a salesman uses. I see lots of dyno sheets posted with no E\T to back it up along the way. Just my 2 cents. That's not to say track numbers are also the end All be all. Tail winds can skew things up along with driver skill.
Example: Vortecpro shop truck, 1979 1/2 ton longbed, 3.07 gear, 4240 pounds.
327 Cu in 445 corrected HP, 329 observed HP uncorrected, 6400 feet elevation.
Performance: 13.90 @ 99.87 @ 8000 feet DA 24.96 barometer.
If you run the numbers you can see this truck with 0 chassis work no gearing shows observed dyno HP with no problem. So lets take a look again at this 434 build, any way you want to look at this 434 should easily show MPH that lines up with the observed, measured or in the room dyno HP.
434 - 493 measured or observed or in the room HP means: 120 MPH @ 3700 pounds. At the VERY LEAST it should do that.
Last edited by VORTECPRO; April 26th, 2019 at 04:43 AM.
April 26th, 2019, 05:38 AM
#68
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Unfortunately the dynos are not really the truth. What they car puts on the board at the track is the real deal. People wanna brag the dyno numbers but the reality is a well set up 350 HP engine can smear a 450 HP engine at the track if that 450hp engine is not in a chassie set up to use it efficiently. Set up, tuning and a slew of variables are at play so you ultimately have to take the dyno numbers with a grain of salt. Unless you plan to exploit the HP made on the dyno to its fullest in the chassis then it's not much to boast about. HP numbers to the average guy are just something a salesman uses. I see lots of dyno sheets posted with no E\T to back it up along the way. Just my 2 cents. That's not to say track numbers are also the end All be all. Tail winds can skew things up along with driver skill.
April 28th, 2019, 09:35 AM
#69
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Well, to get back to the point...
Mark said the engine should ship out this coming week, and I'm hoping it does! It's literally going from one corner of the USA to the other, so we shall see when it arrives. I'll keep everyone posted!
Mark said the engine should ship out this coming week, and I'm hoping it does! It's literally going from one corner of the USA to the other, so we shall see when it arrives. I'll keep everyone posted!
September 5th, 2019, 05:24 PM
#70
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Side note: I just ordered ARH Headers for this engine, to go into my 72 Cutlass. I am aware I'll need a mini-starter for fitment.
Is this the correct starter for a SBO 350 in a 72 Cutlass?
https://www.sriperformance.com/power...p/pwm-9510.htm
Is this the correct starter for a SBO 350 in a 72 Cutlass?
https://www.sriperformance.com/power...p/pwm-9510.htm
September 5th, 2019, 08:00 PM
#71
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Side note: I just ordered ARH Headers for this engine, to go into my 72 Cutlass. I am aware I'll need a mini-starter for fitment.
Is this the correct starter for a SBO 350 in a 72 Cutlass?
https://www.sriperformance.com/power...p/pwm-9510.htm
Is this the correct starter for a SBO 350 in a 72 Cutlass?
https://www.sriperformance.com/power...p/pwm-9510.htm
December 19th, 2019, 08:36 AM
#73
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UPDATE:
Lots going on for this project. It will start in January.
Installing this engine(!), new TH400 trans w/ GV Overdrive unit, new fuel system, new full exhaust system and lots of other goodies. It will take many months.
I'll keep everyone posted!
Lots going on for this project. It will start in January.
Installing this engine(!), new TH400 trans w/ GV Overdrive unit, new fuel system, new full exhaust system and lots of other goodies. It will take many months.
I'll keep everyone posted!
December 19th, 2019, 05:56 PM
#75
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I want to, absolutely.
However, it is a convertible, and I'm never going to put a roll-bar in the car. So, if I show up to a strip, I'm going to have to pretend it's slow and make one pass before getting kicked out. LOL
However, it is a convertible, and I'm never going to put a roll-bar in the car. So, if I show up to a strip, I'm going to have to pretend it's slow and make one pass before getting kicked out. LOL
December 20th, 2019, 05:32 AM
#77
11.50's requires a 6 point roll bar. Not sure if that's the same case for a vert but most tracks tend to be leniant with street cars.
Last edited by coppercutlass; December 20th, 2019 at 05:48 AM.
December 20th, 2019, 07:46 AM
#79
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