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Ya always run into something. For some reason the GV Overdrive unit is nowhere NEAR close to fitting in the tunnel - even with the shorter tailshaft TH400. After much research and talking with others that did the same to their Olds A-Bodies, I was under the impression it was very tight, but doable.
Looks like I have to see if my body mounts are really that trashed (which they don't seem to be), or I'll have to cut lots of the floorboard out - which I was really hoping I wouldn't have to do...
Or you can talk to Dr Dan and have him build you a rock solid 2004r and be done. I built my own using CKperfomance parts. Husek convertor in the latest. These are in Trans Ams with Olds 403's.
Just saying.
Ya always run into something. For some reason the GV Overdrive unit is nowhere NEAR close to fitting in the tunnel - even with the shorter tailshaft TH400. After much research and talking with others that did the same to their Olds A-Bodies, I was under the impression it was very tight, but doable.
Looks like I have to see if my body mounts are really that trashed (which they don't seem to be), or I'll have to cut lots of the floorboard out - which I was really hoping I wouldn't have to do...
you have the roomier A-body than ours (1967) and there was no way we could fit the Gear Vendor in without Huge amounts of floor surgery.
It was a heck of a time and cutting/welding to get the 400 trans in ours to get a better driveline angle, and there was no way we could see getting our gear vendors to work, so it got sold.
The other side is to question if you are really going to drive it enough to make the overdrive worthwhile. It is not like you have a tiny little RV torque cam in the engine, and it may prefer staying above 2,000-2,500rpm for efficiency anyways.
If you think you have to keep overdrive, I would definitely go with a 4L80E any day over A 200-4R or 700R4/4L60.
Even with a well built 200-4R, you will be pushing it pretty hard to the edge, where a mild built 4L80E will likely have zero issues.
otherwise, you can just try it with the 400 and see what you think, which is what we are doing
Sorry but I couldn’t disagree more. There are lots of 200-4R’s in cars doing 9 sec qtr miles. And these are turbo cars that make crazy tq through the rpm range.
A well built 200-4R will last a very long time behind something like this.
Talk to Dave Husek at Turbo Buick Performance or Lonnie at Extreme Automatics. Check with them about the 2004r for your application and report back.
I have used CK, Dave Husek, and Lonnie at Extreme.The 200R4 gets a bad rap because people hear things and have not tried it themselves or had a crappy builder.
Lonnie makes a lot of the parts other use - I have all of his billet hard parts in mine including his clutch packs.
Not going to ruin this guys post - just trying to help and keep simple.
I didn’t say it wasn’t possible. Sure, go spend Big $ on a 200-4R if you want... almost anything is possible.
I have had several well-built 200-4R’s behind moderately built Olds Big Blocks and a mild 403, as well as worked on and owned 1986 and 1987 turbo Buicks. All the 200-4R’s broke. I have had several almost stock 400 Transmissions live behind my few engines and several friend’s engines pushing way more power.
There are a few people who can get them to live.
I was suggesting the most likely path to transmission success with ease that I have personally witnessed, and didn’t say it was the only way....
I agree to disagree
I also never liked the huge rpm drop in 4th with the .67 OD of the 200-4R vs. the 4L80E’s .75 or the gear vendor’s .78.
3.73 rear gears with 4th gear effective gear ratio and 70 mph cruise rpm estimate with 27 inch tires:
200-4R (.67) = 2,177 rpm
4L80E (.75) = 2,436 rpm
gear vendors (.78) = 2,534 rpm
Cams with 230+ degrees at .050 don’t like to be lugged and that means holding an overdrive In 3rd for longer to keep it from jumping into 4th and lockup too quick and that is tough to do with a TV Pressure cable Adjusted 200-4R, which brings me back to a manually Or programmer-controlled 4L80E for 4th gear engagement and lockup parameters.
Last edited by Battenrunner; August 4th, 2020 at 11:02 PM.
I didn’t say it wasn’t possible. Sure, go spend Big $ on a 200-4R if you want... almost anything is possible.
I have had several well-built 200-4R’s behind moderately built Olds Big Blocks and a mild 403, as well as worked on and owned 1986 and 1987 turbo Buicks. All the 200-4R’s broke. I have had several almost stock 400 Transmissions live behind my few engines and several friend’s engines pushing way more power.
There are a few people who can get them to live.
I was suggesting the most likely path to transmission success with ease that I have personally witnessed, and didn’t say it was the only way....
I agree to disagree
I also never liked the huge rpm drop in 4th with the .67 OD of the 200-4R vs. the 4L80E’s .75 or the gear vendor’s .78.
3.73 rear gears with 4th gear effective gear ratio and 70 mph cruise rpm estimate with 27 inch tires:
200-4R (.67) = 2,177 rpm
4L80E (.75) = 2,436 rpm
gear vendors (.78) = 2,534 rpm
Cams with 230+ degrees at .050 don’t like to be lugged and that means holding an overdrive In 3rd for longer to keep it from jumping into 4th and lockup too quick and that is tough to do with a TV Pressure cable Adjusted 200-4R, which brings me back to a manually Or programmer-controlled 4L80E for 4th gear engagement and lockup parameters.
You do realize you can keep a 200-4R in D (3rd) until you need overdrive, right? It’ll happily shift like any 3 speed auto until you drop it into 4th. You can even go full manual valve body if you want. You can also tie the lockup to a button if you don’t want it to engage.
You seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill...especially given a 4L80E doesn’t exactly bolt right in like a 200-4R does.
You do realize you can keep a 200-4R in D (3rd) until you need overdrive, right? It’ll happily shift like any 3 speed auto until you drop it into 4th. You can even go full manual valve body if you want. You can also tie the lockup to a button if you don’t want it to engage.
You seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill...especially given a 4L80E doesn’t exactly bolt right in like a 200-4R does.
Yessir, I do know that info for sure, as I have had 4 of them.... I also had the converter lock up on a switch as well.
I found the shift quality and shift timing for power, 1/4 mile speed times, and driving enjoyment to be the best with the 400 trans equipped cars, out of all I have driven with modified cars, as the RPM drops between gears are good and these always felt the best. I also like the 400’s electric 2nd gear kick down switch. The overdrive transmissions always felt mushy or too harsh on shifts.
I never noticed more than 1mpg different in fuel economy with overdrive or without overdrive in an engine with much cam in it.
This is why, in my eyes, with a healthy street/strip car, a gear vendors and 400 trans or a 4L80E would be the way I would go if I had to have overdrive in the future.
To the OP, Staying with the 400 trans is not a bad deal, I bet you will still greatly enjoy the car, and figure out if you really need overdrive later, or, decide to go ahead and do it now. Our trans tunnel would have needed 2 inches of increased height to get the driveline angles correct, and that was with already-installed New body bushings( but the smaller trans tunnel of the early A-body).
Also, running 275/60 rear tires will help your gearing out, as well as a change to a different gear ratio like a 3.23 possibly.
Just my opinion and my recommendation to the OP.
Last edited by Battenrunner; August 5th, 2020 at 08:46 AM.
Yessir, I do know that info for sure, as I have had 4 of them.... I also had the converter lock up on a switch as well.
I found the shift quality and shift timing for power, 1/4 mile speed times, and driving enjoyment to be the best with the 400 trans equipped cars, out of all I have driven with modified cars, as the RPM drops between gears are good and these always felt the best. I also like the 400’s electric 2nd gear kick down switch. The overdrive transmissions always felt mushy or too harsh on shifts.
I never noticed more than 1mpg different in fuel economy with overdrive or without overdrive in an engine with much cam in it.
This is why, in my eyes, with a healthy street/strip car, a gear vendors and 400 trans or a 4L80E would be the way I would go if I had to have overdrive in the future.
To the OP, Staying with the 400 trans is not a bad deal, I bet you will still greatly enjoy the car, and figure out if you really need overdrive later, or, decide to go ahead and do it now. Our trans tunnel would have needed 2 inches of increased height to get the driveline angles correct, and that was with already-installed New body bushings( but the smaller trans tunnel of the early A-body).
Also, running 275/60 rear tires will help your gearing out, as well as a change to a different gear ratio like a 3.23 possibly.
Just my opinion and my recommendation to the OP.
I don’t disagree on the TH400 being preferable to a 200-4R if overdrive isn’t needed. They are by far my favorite automatic. But having driven a healthy car across country with 3.73s and no overdrive, I have to say, screw that. Can’t maintain speed on some sections of this country without pulling 4000 RPMs sustained. My mileage improved exactly as much as one would expect from a 30% decrease in RPM (30% increase in mileage). It is worth noting I saw no difference in mileage swapping from 3.08s to those 3.73s with overdrive. So yes, I agree you can put too tall of a gear in. But a TH400 with 3.08s isn’t going to get off the line as well as a 200-4R with the same gear, much less a steeper 3.73 and the overdrive will deliver better mileage and reduced wear.
Gear vendors are hardly worth the effort (unless putting out huge power) given the minuscule overdrive and high price. A 4L80E doesn’t fit without cutting plus requires an adapter and controller. Overdrive automatic, best choice is the 200-4R.
I didn’t like that choice and instead ponied up for a Tremec Magnum. Why go through similar effort for a 4L80E when you’re still stuck with a 4-speed auto? My take anyway.
Well thanks for the feedback everyone it's always interesting to see everyone's feedback. On my end, we have the fitment issue figured out. Hopefully more to come soon!
Side note; for whatever reason my OEM PS Reservoir/Brackets are not mounting up at all to the same distance as the other accesory pulleys.
Either 1) I'm being stupid, 2) the pump/reservoir that was originally on there shouldn't have been installed in the first place by someone else, or 3) ???
PS bracket problems are super common. That angle is controlled by the spacer between the bracket and the block down on the side.
BUT, you can't really check any of that until the big C shaped bracket is attached to the front. Right now the pump is just wobbling around in space.
Get all the brackets on, see where you sit. Unfortunately the return will probably need heated to clear the Procomp heads. Those heads sticking out on the front cause grief especially for SBO owners. It should sit like this.
I had an interference problems with the power steering pump return line hitting the aluminum head on my engine build. I found that TuffStuff makes a pump hosing that positions the return line to the outside of the head eliminating the interference problem; the Tuff Stuff part number is 6501B. I have the later, square face pump and I see you have the earlier style, so my solution would only work for you if you swapped to the \ the later style. Here's some pics of my problem and solution.
Rodney
Original Saginaw pump hosing on the left, Tuff Stuff #6501B pump housing is on the right.
You have a very nice ride with a good history behind it...hope this turns out exactly the way you want it to.
Thank you, sir. I hope so too!
Originally Posted by cdrod
I had an interference problems with the power steering pump return line hitting the aluminum head on my engine build. I found that TuffStuff makes a pump hosing that positions the return line to the outside of the head eliminating the interference problem; the Tuff Stuff part number is 6501B. I have the later, square face pump and I see you have the earlier style, so my solution would only work for you if you swapped to the \ the later style. Here's some pics of my problem and solution.
Rodney
Original Saginaw pump hosing on the left, Tuff Stuff #6501B pump housing is on the right.
Have something I ran into and was looking for input or advice. The water pump pulley and crank pulley are about 1/8 inch off - see photos below. I verified that the pulleys are the correct ones, for non-AC. I originally had an AC length water pump on this build but the car does not and will not have AC, so we got a 5.6in non-AC water pump. Using the OEM pulleys doesn't solve the issue, so it isn't an issue with the new pulleys themselves I would guess.
How is the alignment of the crank to the alternator pulley and power steering pulley?
If the water pump pulley is sitting behind the crank pulley, you can possibly pull the water pump flange up 1/8 by pressing the center of the shaft in by holding under the flange.
An easier thing to do is to get some water pump shaft flange shim or shims and you get it just right before doing the harder flange press.
How is the alignment of the crank to the alternator pulley and power steering pulley?
If the water pump pulley is sitting behind the crank pulley, you can possibly pull the water pump flange up 1/8 by pressing the center of the shaft in by holding under the flange.
An easier thing to do is to get some water pump shaft flange shim or shims and you get it just right before doing the harder flange press.
Thanks, I have a feeling some shims will be in the best way to go and the easiest. The alternator bracket seems to be be pretty far off but I haven't messed with it too much yet. I have a feeling the mounts for the alt. bracket are in different locations with the aftermarket intake manifold?
Not sure if there's different alt. brackets to use or not...
I don't know about the small block aftermarket intakes and the brackets to make that deal work......
I know in the past with the Big Block Olds and aftermarket intakes that it takes welding modifications to the brackets that attach to the top of the intake manifolds... it was always a pain in the butt and V belts were always disappointing with slippage at higher RPM even with perfect alignment.
We used this kind of setup from March for our Big Block Olds and everything bolts to just the front of the heads, the water pump, and the front timing cover behind the Damper. Ours required modifications to the lower bracket because we used an ATI damper that has the external balance weight that sticks out behind the damper. Also, all the brackets worked great overall, but some of the spacer tubes weren't quite right and required some minor mods (mostly they needed to be cut off a little shorter here and there. All the hardware was correct that came with the kit, so that was nice.
I didn't want one of their Hot Rod kits, and this setup worked great for clearance everywhere on the Power steering box, frame, and block.
Also, we used a CS140 alternator, and there was plenty of clearance on the back of the alternator to the head with the March kit, so it should work fine with your big alternator as well.
The higher amp alternators tug harder on the belt, being more likely to slip or throw the belt on the V belt setups, especially if it is a long belt with no other support.
Last edited by Battenrunner; August 22nd, 2020 at 10:38 PM.
Whose pulleys are these? I have a three groove water pump that came with no name underdrive pulley set and a March two groove crank pulley. With the 6" water pump, it aligned perfectly on my 70S with the passenger side non A/C alternator and power steering.
December 21st, 2019, 07:04 AM
