Things to Consider, 350 Build
October 18th, 2010, 12:39 PM
#1
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Things to Consider, 350 Build
Ok, I'm starting at step 1 here, about a year ago I had my 73 cutlass stolen and the only thing I had left was this 350 block and heads. So, I figured since I'm starting from the ground up, it would be a good time to ask the questions and get going in the right direction. I'm listing quite a bit here but am by no means sold on any of the ideas yet, that's why I'm asking you guys first. Here's what I have to work with:
350 block (all info points to the 68-72 year, but the far left serial number starts with a 33M) It's bored .30 over right now
7a heads, looks to be stock for the most part, maybe at best mild port matching
stock cast crank
seems to be stock connecting rods
speed pro flat top pistons
and a decently nice harmonic balancer
I'm not starting with much I know, but want to get off on the right foot. I have a good(condition wise) cam but have no idea what the specs are on it, no idea how to find out. This engine was rebuilt when I got it and to me seemed to be a mismatch because it just felt flat when it comes to the seat of the pants feeling. I'm trying to find out before I put this thing back together, how strong the stock connecting rods are, what will they tolerate in terms of RPM's and TQ/HP?
When it comes to puting the rest on the engine together I was trying to figure out what a good match would be for carb/ intake/ cam would be. Kind of leaning toward Edelbrock performer RPM stuff, but haven't heard all that great of stuff about the cam side of the house. My first choice would be to run a Q-jet but since I don't have one it makes it kind of difficult to do that, so would a 600-700cfm carb do the trick to match the #7111 intake?
I have no valvetrain either, so was wondering what anybody thought of the COMP 1441-kit offered at summitracing, if it would work or not, have heard from time to time that certain valvetrains don't do well in the Olds motors. For reliability I was considering a main gridle from DMR, and also adding the lifter bore and cam bearing restrictors to the engine since it's still disassembled, was also thinking oil pan baffle also.
In the future I plan to find a g body cutlass shell and so far want to lean toward a built 200r4 for the tranny if this is any help with other information. I have also considered getting the crank drilled now to accept a TKO-500 in the far future, not to sure about that yet though.
This is just a few thoughts I have right now, of course, we all know there are many more steps after all this is done. I thank anybody for taking the time to reply with advice in advance.
350 block (all info points to the 68-72 year, but the far left serial number starts with a 33M) It's bored .30 over right now
7a heads, looks to be stock for the most part, maybe at best mild port matching
stock cast crank
seems to be stock connecting rods
speed pro flat top pistons
and a decently nice harmonic balancer
I'm not starting with much I know, but want to get off on the right foot. I have a good(condition wise) cam but have no idea what the specs are on it, no idea how to find out. This engine was rebuilt when I got it and to me seemed to be a mismatch because it just felt flat when it comes to the seat of the pants feeling. I'm trying to find out before I put this thing back together, how strong the stock connecting rods are, what will they tolerate in terms of RPM's and TQ/HP?
When it comes to puting the rest on the engine together I was trying to figure out what a good match would be for carb/ intake/ cam would be. Kind of leaning toward Edelbrock performer RPM stuff, but haven't heard all that great of stuff about the cam side of the house. My first choice would be to run a Q-jet but since I don't have one it makes it kind of difficult to do that, so would a 600-700cfm carb do the trick to match the #7111 intake?
I have no valvetrain either, so was wondering what anybody thought of the COMP 1441-kit offered at summitracing, if it would work or not, have heard from time to time that certain valvetrains don't do well in the Olds motors. For reliability I was considering a main gridle from DMR, and also adding the lifter bore and cam bearing restrictors to the engine since it's still disassembled, was also thinking oil pan baffle also.
In the future I plan to find a g body cutlass shell and so far want to lean toward a built 200r4 for the tranny if this is any help with other information. I have also considered getting the crank drilled now to accept a TKO-500 in the far future, not to sure about that yet though.
This is just a few thoughts I have right now, of course, we all know there are many more steps after all this is done. I thank anybody for taking the time to reply with advice in advance.
October 18th, 2010, 06:55 PM
#5
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Desired hp? Budget?
A Performer RPM and Qjet is fine. A cam in the 220 @ .050 range will give you good power and retain driveability. Try to go with 1.7 rockers, more lift more hp. Roller Cam? I can grind you whatever you want.
Shoot for 9.5:1 or better. 2.00 intakes and head work (filled crossovers etc.) would be well suited as well.
That should get you started.
IMO don't need a main girdle or restrictors. Stock rods and crank are fine as well if you stay below 500hp.
Mark
A Performer RPM and Qjet is fine. A cam in the 220 @ .050 range will give you good power and retain driveability. Try to go with 1.7 rockers, more lift more hp. Roller Cam? I can grind you whatever you want.
Shoot for 9.5:1 or better. 2.00 intakes and head work (filled crossovers etc.) would be well suited as well.
That should get you started.
IMO don't need a main girdle or restrictors. Stock rods and crank are fine as well if you stay below 500hp.
Mark
Last edited by cutlassefi; October 18th, 2010 at 07:00 PM.
October 18th, 2010, 07:13 PM
#6
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Desired hp? Budget?
>well budget is up in the air, since I'm not in a major hurry, I just want to make sure I do it right, I haven't really desired HP as much as TQ, but would love to have gobs of TQ!
A Performer RPM and Qjet is fine. A cam in the 220 @ .050 range will give you good power and retain driveability. Try to go with 1.7 rockers, more lift more hp. Roller Cam?
>Was looking into cams, I'm not real sure what brand to go with, as far as roller... vs. hydraulic flat am I really going to get $600+ performance difference out of the roller? Just something I have no idea on and is why I'm asking. If I go with 1.7 rockers, what size would that make my pushrods(or is this for a machinist to solve)? As far as carbs go, what would be a good alternative if I can't find a Q-jet that works for this application?
Shoot for 9.5:1 or better. 2.00 intakes and head work (filled crossovers etc.) would be well suited as well.
>I defiantly like the sounds of the 2.00 intakes(heard that could be worth 10 to 20hp by itself).. should I make the exhaust valve bigger just because it's in and getting done. With these 7a heads being 64cc's, will the flat top pistons I already have matched with the heads hit about 9.5:1? Or will more be required? Although I've seen people talking about filling the crossovers, what does that do for the engine?
That should get you started.
>Thanks for the reply.
Mark
Last edited by SPEEDROCKET; October 18th, 2010 at 07:15 PM.
October 18th, 2010, 07:18 PM
#7
same but different
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 2,880
Sorry about your 73. You can probably get this project going. Would you call this a street car or a race car?
I 'm not any good at suggesting cams or carbs but if you're on the cheap, then use what you got. Either one will work. About that cam, there should be some numbers stamped on the end. Post those numbers, somebody will probably recognize them. We can go from there.
I'm using a Torker intake. Thats what I got.
I would skip the comp1441 rockers. There just roller tipped, and not a full on roller rocker. Look into Harland Sharp rockers.
I would skip the girdle too. Spend that money on balancing the assembly along with the other machine work. Like a good valve job. Get to know a machinist if you don't all ready.
I would probably skip the restricters too, I don't think they are needed.
I like the idea of drilling the crank for a manual trans. Do it now and not later.
I 'm not any good at suggesting cams or carbs but if you're on the cheap, then use what you got. Either one will work. About that cam, there should be some numbers stamped on the end. Post those numbers, somebody will probably recognize them. We can go from there.
I'm using a Torker intake. Thats what I got.
I would skip the comp1441 rockers. There just roller tipped, and not a full on roller rocker. Look into Harland Sharp rockers.
I would skip the girdle too. Spend that money on balancing the assembly along with the other machine work. Like a good valve job. Get to know a machinist if you don't all ready.
I would probably skip the restricters too, I don't think they are needed.
I like the idea of drilling the crank for a manual trans. Do it now and not later.
October 19th, 2010, 04:52 AM
#8
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
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Filling the crossovers and welding the port divider will enhance scavenging. In stock form your 7a heads are closer to 68cc. Keep the same exhaust valve. I'd shoot for 9.5:1. That allows you some good cam choices and not too demanding on fuel.
October 19th, 2010, 07:58 AM
#9
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 55
Sorry about your 73. You can probably get this project going. Would you call this a street car or a race car?
>a streetable car that I might play with at the track?
I 'm not any good at suggesting cams or carbs but if you're on the cheap, then use what you got. Either one will work. About that cam, there should be some numbers stamped on the end. Post those numbers, somebody will probably recognize them. We can go from there.
>
I'm using a Torker intake. Thats what I got.
I would skip the comp1441 rockers. There just roller tipped, and not a full on roller rocker. Look into Harland Sharp rockers.
>does Harland sharp offer a full kit? That's what I'm gunning for, since I have no valve train at all, the heads are fully assembled, the guy I got them off of said they had a 3 angle valve job done on them before I got it from him, the engine was together but there wasn't even oil in the engine yet when I got it.
I would skip the girdle too. Spend that money on balancing the assembly along with the other machine work. Like a good valve job. Get to know a machinist if you don't all ready.
>Balancing in my book is not an option, it's a must. But was just kicking around ideas to strengthen up that bottom end a little with the girdle.
I would probably skip the restricters too, I don't think they are needed.
>I've seen this used on a lot of topics on olds builds, I can't say I know exactly what they do or how they affect the engine in the end.
I like the idea of drilling the crank for a manual trans. Do it now and not later.
>Exactly what I was thinking, because if I ever do go the manual route, I'll be glad I did.
Thanks for the reply
>a streetable car that I might play with at the track?
I 'm not any good at suggesting cams or carbs but if you're on the cheap, then use what you got. Either one will work. About that cam, there should be some numbers stamped on the end. Post those numbers, somebody will probably recognize them. We can go from there.
>
I'm using a Torker intake. Thats what I got.
I would skip the comp1441 rockers. There just roller tipped, and not a full on roller rocker. Look into Harland Sharp rockers.
>does Harland sharp offer a full kit? That's what I'm gunning for, since I have no valve train at all, the heads are fully assembled, the guy I got them off of said they had a 3 angle valve job done on them before I got it from him, the engine was together but there wasn't even oil in the engine yet when I got it.
I would skip the girdle too. Spend that money on balancing the assembly along with the other machine work. Like a good valve job. Get to know a machinist if you don't all ready.
>Balancing in my book is not an option, it's a must. But was just kicking around ideas to strengthen up that bottom end a little with the girdle.
I would probably skip the restricters too, I don't think they are needed.
>I've seen this used on a lot of topics on olds builds, I can't say I know exactly what they do or how they affect the engine in the end.
I like the idea of drilling the crank for a manual trans. Do it now and not later.
>Exactly what I was thinking, because if I ever do go the manual route, I'll be glad I did.
Thanks for the reply
October 19th, 2010, 09:16 AM
#10
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
Posts: 36
On the topic of Cams.
Changing to a roller cam is something that I have planned for my 69. Not for performance but peace of mind. Modern motor oils do not protect a flat tappet cam, and you need to take some care in picking the right oil or oil+additive if you love the engine.
Convert it to a roller and you can run pretty much any motor oil.
Goggle "ZDDP" and you will find more info and opinions than you can shake a stick at.
Just something you might factor into your decision.
Changing to a roller cam is something that I have planned for my 69. Not for performance but peace of mind. Modern motor oils do not protect a flat tappet cam, and you need to take some care in picking the right oil or oil+additive if you love the engine.
Convert it to a roller and you can run pretty much any motor oil.
Goggle "ZDDP" and you will find more info and opinions than you can shake a stick at.
Just something you might factor into your decision.
October 19th, 2010, 09:27 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 55
On the topic of Cams.
Changing to a roller cam is something that I have planned for my 69. Not for performance but peace of mind. Modern motor oils do not protect a flat tappet cam, and you need to take some care in picking the right oil or oil+additive if you love the engine.
Convert it to a roller and you can run pretty much any motor oil.
Goggle "ZDDP" and you will find more info and opinions than you can shake a stick at.
Just something you might factor into your decision.
Changing to a roller cam is something that I have planned for my 69. Not for performance but peace of mind. Modern motor oils do not protect a flat tappet cam, and you need to take some care in picking the right oil or oil+additive if you love the engine.
Convert it to a roller and you can run pretty much any motor oil.
Goggle "ZDDP" and you will find more info and opinions than you can shake a stick at.
Just something you might factor into your decision.
October 19th, 2010, 10:58 AM
#12
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 55
Sorry about your 73. You can probably get this project going. Would you call this a street car or a race car?
I 'm not any good at suggesting cams or carbs but if you're on the cheap, then use what you got. Either one will work. About that cam, there should be some numbers stamped on the end. Post those numbers, somebody will probably recognize them. We can go from there.
>the number stamped on the cam is: CS176R, is there a way to determine lift and duration and kind of cam from this number?
I'm using a Torker intake. Thats what I got.
>Also wanted to ask if you have a small block and you have a Torker on a small block and if so where I could find it at?
I would skip the comp1441 rockers. There just roller tipped, and not a full on roller rocker. Look into Harland Sharp rockers.
I would skip the girdle too. Spend that money on balancing the assembly along with the other machine work. Like a good valve job. Get to know a machinist if you don't all ready.
I would probably skip the restricters too, I don't think they are needed.
I like the idea of drilling the crank for a manual trans. Do it now and not later.
I 'm not any good at suggesting cams or carbs but if you're on the cheap, then use what you got. Either one will work. About that cam, there should be some numbers stamped on the end. Post those numbers, somebody will probably recognize them. We can go from there.
>the number stamped on the cam is: CS176R, is there a way to determine lift and duration and kind of cam from this number?
I'm using a Torker intake. Thats what I got.
>Also wanted to ask if you have a small block and you have a Torker on a small block and if so where I could find it at?
I would skip the comp1441 rockers. There just roller tipped, and not a full on roller rocker. Look into Harland Sharp rockers.
I would skip the girdle too. Spend that money on balancing the assembly along with the other machine work. Like a good valve job. Get to know a machinist if you don't all ready.
I would probably skip the restricters too, I don't think they are needed.
I like the idea of drilling the crank for a manual trans. Do it now and not later.
October 19th, 2010, 11:33 AM
#13
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 55
From a site that usually isn't reliable I found that the CS176R cam is a sealed power cam and was an OEM replacement for the W-31 350 option, but does these numbers seem right?
Overlap Duration -Lift
82 -------308/308 .474/.474
If I decide to use this cam what would be a good Carb/Intake match for it? What kind of stall would I need for the torque converter? And where would that push to rear gear too if I planned to use the 200r4?
Overlap Duration -Lift
82 -------308/308 .474/.474
If I decide to use this cam what would be a good Carb/Intake match for it? What kind of stall would I need for the torque converter? And where would that push to rear gear too if I planned to use the 200r4?
October 19th, 2010, 03:45 PM
#14
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,971
From a site that usually isn't reliable I found that the CS176R cam is a sealed power cam and was an OEM replacement for the W-31 350 option, but does these numbers seem right?
Overlap Duration -Lift
82 -------308/308 .474/.474
If I decide to use this cam what would be a good Carb/Intake match for it? What kind of stall would I need for the torque converter? And where would that push to rear gear too if I planned to use the 200r4?
Overlap Duration -Lift
82 -------308/308 .474/.474
If I decide to use this cam what would be a good Carb/Intake match for it? What kind of stall would I need for the torque converter? And where would that push to rear gear too if I planned to use the 200r4?
Just kidding but that's the W30/31 cam, not right for your combo.
I'd use a 1.7 rocker, and again a cam with intake duration in the 220 to maybe 230 range. Look for lifts in the .550 range with the 1.7 rockers. more lift is normally more hp everywhere in the powerband with no little or no downside if you have the springs for it.
October 19th, 2010, 04:24 PM
#15
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 55
A 1000 cfm carb and a 4000 rpm stall!
>
LOL, that's funny I don't care who you are... thats funny right there!
Just kidding but that's the W30/31 cam, not right for your combo.
I'd use a 1.7 rocker, and again a cam with intake duration in the 220 to maybe 230 range. Look for lifts in the .550 range with the 1.7 rockers. more lift is normally more hp everywhere in the powerband with no little or no downside if you have the springs for it.
>Ok, thanks for the reply, tossing the cam!
>
LOL, that's funny I don't care who you are... thats funny right there!Just kidding but that's the W30/31 cam, not right for your combo.
I'd use a 1.7 rocker, and again a cam with intake duration in the 220 to maybe 230 range. Look for lifts in the .550 range with the 1.7 rockers. more lift is normally more hp everywhere in the powerband with no little or no downside if you have the springs for it.
>Ok, thanks for the reply, tossing the cam!
October 21st, 2010, 06:47 PM
#19
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 55
Hmmm.... lets just say efficent, and smooth running, if there's a stupid honda(chevy or dodge) at a light acting a fool, I want to hand their A** to them, lol. So i guess the goal would be a strip car that I can drive to the track if I feel froggy.
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