CarCrazyChemist

So, today I was pulling a few parts off of my engine - since I have gotten it drivable, I could tell that it needed a lot of kinks worked out. Also, the previous owner had spraypainted the whole motor, as well as a few other pieces and I wanted to remove the several layers of bad/old paint.
Well, long story short, I got my valve covers off, and as I was removing old gasket material, I have found what appears to be very hard plastic, almost glass-like, which was coming out of the hole(s) which appears to enter into the heads. Both sides, on either end. Visual inspection tells me that this does not come from the rods, springs, or spring retainers, as they were all in great looking shape. It appears that the plastic type material was once a circle, and it appears that they were stamped - although deciphering the stamp was almost impossible.
Does this find pretty much ensure me that I need to rip completely into the engine?

m371961

most likely valve seals. Pics?

CarCrazyChemist

Here is one of the pieces, laying on its side to show the roundness.
0209141621_zps0466eebe.jpg

And here is inside the valve cover, one of the holes I am referring to being on the far left bottom:
0209141622a_zps1fa295a5.jpg

1970-W30

Part of an old valve cover grommet maybe??

MDchanic

Looks like a part of a valve guide seal - any way to post it next to a known object, like a dime or an elephant, for scale?

- Eric

CarCrazyChemist

That would be helpful, wouldn't it!?
0209141705_zpsc45d8b7f.jpg
0209141705a_zps3ca27575.jpg

Oldsmaniac

For sure valve stem seals...

dancutlass

I would vote for valve stem seals, too!
With the right tools, it can be done without pulling the heads, I've done that on my 330...
It's not very difficult, but time consuming

CarCrazyChemist

Thanks a bunch for the identification you guys!
I will make sure to get a set of 16 valve stem seals, and read up on how to replace them myself. I was afraid the heads would need a trip to a machine shop.

starfire

Would have been a lot easier to tell if you had put it next to an elephant

Eric you cracked me up with that one!

MDchanic

Heck, as far as I could tell, that picture could have been from Google Maps.

- Eric

dancutlass

It's actually a pretty straightforward repair!
I attached a pic of how I did it, maybe it helps a little...
At the bottom you can see the air pressure hose screwed in the to spark plug hole. It is used to pressurize the cylinder to prevent the valves from dropping into the cylinder.
Then you have to compress the valve spring with something that allows you to get to the valve keepers with a magnet for example. After taking off the valve spring, you can remove the old valve stem seals (if anything is left) and slip on the new ones!
I'm sure you will find a better description somewhere in the www, too ;-)

CarCrazyChemist

I will make sure in the future I remember, relative size is important for determining what an unknown may be.
And I appreciate the picture and advice. I think I will probably pull the heads, as I have a full gasket kit in the mail, may as well replace them while I have the engine this far apart (and soon to be moreso)!

MDchanic

Just remember that if you replace a factory steel shim head gasket with a Fel-Pro or similar composition gasket, your compression will drop by about half a point.

- Eric

CarCrazyChemist

It is Fel-Pro.
Is there something I may be able to do to keep the compression ratio stock?

MDchanic

The simplest thing is to have the heads milled for the difference in thickness between gaskets, which would also serve to keep your valve adjustment the same (though the amount of difference involved would normally be taken up by the hydraulic lifters).

The more important question, though, is What are you doing to the engine, and how is it behaving now?

If you have a high compression engine, and it pings, even on premium gas, there is an argument to be made that slightly dropping the compression may be salutary.

If you have a low compression engine, then you may not want to lose any compression at all.

In theory (using nominal values - actual CC, head gasket thickness, deck height, and piston dish values may vary), your 330 should have a bore of 3.9385", a stroke of 3.385", a deck height around 0.025", a CC volume of something over 60cc, and a piston dish of 5cc if high compression, 19cc if low compression.

Stock specs are 10.25:1 for high compression / 9.0:1 for low compression.

Calculations show theoretical static CRs somewhere under 10.2:1 HC / 8.7:1 LC with a 0.017" stock gasket and 9.51:1 HC / 8.2:1 LC with a 0.043" Fel-Pro, though the only way to get good numbers is by actual measurements of the actual parts you will be using.

- Eric

CarCrazyChemist

Well, I bought this 67 Cutlass 2 weeks and 1 day ago. I was able to drive it home, and had been daily driving it to school up until this Friday. It ran like a dog, but it had been sitting for roughly 30 years so I figured it was most likely due to needing being ran, as well as a tune of the carb. It was running very rich before, and the carb started leaking fuel the day I stopped driving it.

In regards to plans for the engine, I would really like to have slightly improved, mild performance over stock. I believe it is the low compression motor - on the exhaust manifold (or bottom of the head, there is so much paint it is hard to tell where one thing ends and another begins) it is cast 380001 LH.
I have a Comp Cams timing set in the mail, and am essentially replacing what needs replaced for now to get her running smoothly and properly. The Quadrajet is apart, and I am going to rebuild it soon. I thought mostly I would refresh what I can on my meager graduate student salary.

MDchanic

Is it an original 4bbl engine, then it's high compression.

Take a look at the stamped number on the front surface of the passenger-side head (or on the back of the driver's side, if they've been swapped).



The number will probably be Wxxxxxx, WxxxxxxE, or WxxxxxxG, with x=numeral.
Blank or G = high compression, E = low compression.
(of course, the head could also be from a different engine).

I'd rebuild the carburetor and replace the spark plug wires, points, condenser, cap, and rotor first, then start messing with other stuff after that, with the timing set being first on that list.

- Eric

Oldsmaniac

Eric as strange as this is in 67 you could get a 4bbl carb with the lower comprssion engine on the Cutlass/F85 models.

MDchanic

You're far more the '67 expert than I am, Joe, but the only low compression that I see in the 4bbl is the 8.3:1 export option, which would be unusual to find here in the US, unless I'm mistaken.



- Eric

CarCrazyChemist

Thanks for the heads up. I was looking all over the drivers side front of the heads and couldn't find anything. Just about cleared off all the paint though. The number I gave was definitely on the exhaust manifold lol
The heads are stamped '4', and on the passenger side I found W5617 08. It is supposedly the original 4 barrel, and a cutlass supreme. I think the casting/stamp has been removed from my carb.
For now, I will get some valve stem seats set up. I will have to do some searching to figure out the right ones to get. But I have already changed spark plugs, have new wires ready, and am disconnecting and taking out most of the electrical, as there are many bugs in the wiring. New windshield wiper motor that won't work, none of the accessories work, so on and so forth.
I really appreciate everyone's advice and help so far.

MDchanic

I think in '67 you may still have had a chance of getting one of the carbs with the earlier round tag on the driver's side, near the front:



If not, then it's stamped vertically along the float bowl ridge on the driver's side, near the center:



- Eric

CarCrazyChemist

Mine is definitely the first style, but the stamp is removed :/

MDchanic

Probably a rebuilt then, I would imagine. I'm not sure how they handled that, but the big rebuilders may have eliminated the old numbers to avoid confusion.


- Eric

Oldsmaniac

Yeah I see that but perhaps the export option was also available here, I cant find my sales brochure for 67... I do know (because I look at about every 67 I see for sale) that 4bbl air cleaners are black or orange depending if HC or LC and there is a good share of both here. The 67 wagon I picked up has a factory 4bbl and black original breather. It was confirmed that the pistons were greatly dished. I ordered the higher compression pistons for replacement and they do have a lesser dish...

CarCrazyChemist

Also, per your advice MDchanic, I have a cap and rotor set, points, and condenser now confirmed to ship here tomorrow, I went with Accel for everything. Also, 16 new valve stem seals are in the order, as well as a new thermostat since hey, might as well.
Thanks again for the advice guys!

MDchanic

I defer to your expertise, Joe.

On further examination, I do find this, from the 1967 SPECS Guide:



I wonder why the CSM lists the engine IDs that way.

- Eric

MDchanic

I thought you said you were po'...



- Eric

texxas

FYI- My 67 Supreme is original 4 barrel with a black air cleaner and the low compression ratio. It is not an export car. It is not the car I have pictured.

CarCrazyChemist

I was at $36 with the thermostat and valve stem seats, and for free shipping it was $100. I added about $100 to my order with all of those lol.
I'm not thatttttt poor, as long as I think long and hard before buying things.
I almost just went ahead and ordered an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold and Edelbrock performer carb rather than doing my own rebuild....but then I wouldn't have been able to do this.
I had earlier today just ordered a fiberglass front bumper from RRP, as well as that gasket set and Comp cams timing kit.
Now I'm poor!