Ready to rebuild my rocket 350
October 29th, 2012, 10:25 AM
#1
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Ready to rebuild my rocket 350
Hello everyone. I was new to the site this year when I bought my 70 cutlass vert back in march and ended up having to replace the engine right away. I got a lot of great help on here and am very appreciative. I haven't been on since july because I spent the summer enjoying the car and taking it out almost every weekend. Now winter has come and I am ready to tackle the next project of rebuilding the original motor. When I bought the car it had an engine from a 72 in it and it was junk. I got the original engine with the car, the guy said the timing chain had broke on it so I don't know all of what I am getting into yet. Right now I have a 77 350 in it that I bought as a band-ade until I could do this. That engine runs good but is completely gutless and I am beyond bored with it. So long story short here I am looking for advise on what to do with the engine rebuild. I have a th350 trans. I don't want to build a hot rod, but am looking for something that sounds mean, is reliable and can light up the tires if I want. I want to do as much of this as possible by myself, as I like to learn and enjoy working on the car and the engine. But this is my first rebuild job. Any advice or ideas would be great. If you can point me in the direction of an existing forum of someone that was doing the same thing that I am that would be great to. Thanks
October 29th, 2012, 11:53 AM
#2
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To clarify in case I wasn't clear on what I am looking for. Is just a stock re-build enough to make this thing pretty powerful? Or are there some things I can do to beef it up without going crazy? I am new at this and have no idea so any help would be great. Thanks
October 29th, 2012, 12:52 PM
#3
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I'm just starting a rebuild on my 72'. Original 350 rocket (w/204000 miles on it) & 350 trans. Mine won't be a drag strip only car by any means but I think what I am planning to do should work ok. I'm getting the machining done on the engine but the actual tear down/reassembly I'm doing myself. I'm looking at putting a Comp Cam 270H or 280H camshaft in..
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...LDSCAMHydFlatM
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...LDSCAMHydFlatM
From what I've read the 270H is supposed to work good with close to stock builds & converter, mildly rough idle. The 280H has a more rough idle but does work well if you put a 2400 stall converter in the tranny. Both have good perfomance ratings though. New lifters of course & I will also be converting to an adjustable rocker arm setup. Timing set will be double roller chain/gears.
Chances are with the miles that the engine has done the cylinders will probably have to be rebored so new pistons are more than likely in my future. I'm only going to use standard pistons though. Once the machining part is done I'm going to port & polish the heads & intake to make her breathe a bit better.
The tranny will be getting a Transgo 1-2 kit & a 2400 stall converter upgrade. Exhaust I think I'm going to stick with manifolds & run dual pipe to the back. I've messed with headers before so this time will stick with the manifolds. I've heard a few "Cutty's" with manifolds & they sounded pretty mean with the right mufflers.
As for the 4 bbl Qjet it will get the standard rebuild as well (don't think it's ever been apart). I've really tossed around the idea of taking the points ignition out & put in HEI but I'm leaning towards staying with points. There is a few folks that will debate this topic, but I don't mind having to adjust the points every so often.
I'm doing this over this winter as well & some things may get changed but this is basically what I'm doing with mine. I want this to be a daily driver in the summer & like you be able to make a little noise as well.
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...LDSCAMHydFlatM
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...LDSCAMHydFlatM
From what I've read the 270H is supposed to work good with close to stock builds & converter, mildly rough idle. The 280H has a more rough idle but does work well if you put a 2400 stall converter in the tranny. Both have good perfomance ratings though. New lifters of course & I will also be converting to an adjustable rocker arm setup. Timing set will be double roller chain/gears.
Chances are with the miles that the engine has done the cylinders will probably have to be rebored so new pistons are more than likely in my future. I'm only going to use standard pistons though. Once the machining part is done I'm going to port & polish the heads & intake to make her breathe a bit better.
The tranny will be getting a Transgo 1-2 kit & a 2400 stall converter upgrade. Exhaust I think I'm going to stick with manifolds & run dual pipe to the back. I've messed with headers before so this time will stick with the manifolds. I've heard a few "Cutty's" with manifolds & they sounded pretty mean with the right mufflers.
As for the 4 bbl Qjet it will get the standard rebuild as well (don't think it's ever been apart). I've really tossed around the idea of taking the points ignition out & put in HEI but I'm leaning towards staying with points. There is a few folks that will debate this topic, but I don't mind having to adjust the points every so often.
I'm doing this over this winter as well & some things may get changed but this is basically what I'm doing with mine. I want this to be a daily driver in the summer & like you be able to make a little noise as well.
Last edited by rcrac3r; October 29th, 2012 at 12:54 PM.
October 29th, 2012, 01:14 PM
#4
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I guess I don't understand.........you are going to put a cam in it to perform better but then you are going to hamper the engine with exhaust manifolds? Put headers and a free flowing exhaust on it and let the engine breathe. JMHO
October 29th, 2012, 01:52 PM
#5
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Just look around and get a feel for how aggressive you want to go. I went through three cams before I got the hang of picking one out. IMO, the build revolves around the cam. Figure out exactly what you want from the car, pick the cam that gets you there and build the rest to match.
First things first, tear down that engine and make sure you have a usable core. If the timing chain broke and it hammered valves closed, then the heads could be significantly damaged and the bores could be marred past usefulness. And if it's been rebuilt in the past then it may already have everything ground to the end of their life.
The stock cams aren't all that great.
Also, cams are like opinions. For example, I'll never use another Comp grind.
My favorite for a small block is a cam in the 214/224 range with a 2000-ish stall converter. Get the compression into the 9:1 to 9.5:1 range, the comp roller-tip rocker set, a good cloyes timing chain, then pour in money as available on other goodies. I also don't mind using manifolds on the street. Simple and easy.
In my '72 with 2.73 peg-leg rear this was plenty of power. Not scary-fast, but more than the tires could handle, lots of fun around town, mild mannered (600 rpm idle!) and a good highway cruiser.
First things first, tear down that engine and make sure you have a usable core. If the timing chain broke and it hammered valves closed, then the heads could be significantly damaged and the bores could be marred past usefulness. And if it's been rebuilt in the past then it may already have everything ground to the end of their life.
The stock cams aren't all that great.
Also, cams are like opinions. For example, I'll never use another Comp grind.
My favorite for a small block is a cam in the 214/224 range with a 2000-ish stall converter. Get the compression into the 9:1 to 9.5:1 range, the comp roller-tip rocker set, a good cloyes timing chain, then pour in money as available on other goodies. I also don't mind using manifolds on the street. Simple and easy.
In my '72 with 2.73 peg-leg rear this was plenty of power. Not scary-fast, but more than the tires could handle, lots of fun around town, mild mannered (600 rpm idle!) and a good highway cruiser.
October 29th, 2012, 02:09 PM
#6
I ran a real nice combo. It was a 73 block freshened up. new bearings rings etc. 72 7a heads freshened up compression came in at around 9 to 1 . 260h Comp cams grind very mild btw idled almost like stock. edelbrock intake, 600 cfm 1405 eddy carb. full length headers. 3.73 gears backed by a th400 and a 2200 stall converter . It idled great when the car was all steel it ran 13.86 in the 1/4 mile imo it was the pefect build at the time. i could drive anywhere and still go to the strip and have fun and it had stock like characteristics . Now im sure i left a few things out but im just throwing my combo out there it ran very strong.
October 29th, 2012, 02:14 PM
#7
Btw @ rcrac3r i ran that 280h and you really want the compression around 10 to 1 I ran a 2300-2600 stall and it was too tight launched like a dog. I edned up putting a roughly 3000 rpm stall and it really woke the car up. Just from my experience. It also liked to idle in the neighboorhood of 850 rpm. This is what it sounded like
Btw this engine combo was totally diffrent from the one with the 260h cam. just thought id mention that so there is no confusion.
Btw this engine combo was totally diffrent from the one with the 260h cam. just thought id mention that so there is no confusion.
October 29th, 2012, 04:13 PM
#8
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Alright guys I really appreciate the feedback so far. @oddball, you said to find exactly what I am looking for, that is the problem in technical terms I don't know. I am not going to be taking to the drag track. I use it for having fun cruising around on the weekends and reasonable road trips. So far the farthest I took it was 4 hrs one way. I understand what your saying about tearing the engine down first and seeing what if anything has been damaged. But assuming it is fine, I am just looking for something that is reliable, can light up the tires and sounds like an american v8 muscle car. I am not technically picky I just don't want it to cost a fortune.
@rcrac3r what kind of hp and torque do you expect when your done with yours? Do you have a forum going on your rebuild? I would like to check it out if you do. Also if you don't mind me asking how much money do you plan on having into it?
@rcrac3r what kind of hp and torque do you expect when your done with yours? Do you have a forum going on your rebuild? I would like to check it out if you do. Also if you don't mind me asking how much money do you plan on having into it?
Last edited by Finn5033; October 29th, 2012 at 04:17 PM.
October 29th, 2012, 04:27 PM
#9
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have you talked to these guys yet?
Kelley Is in Stpaul MN
https://plus.google.com/117780312551...ut?gl=us&hl=en
Kelley Is in Stpaul MN
https://plus.google.com/117780312551...ut?gl=us&hl=en
Last edited by 11971four4two; October 29th, 2012 at 05:10 PM.
October 29th, 2012, 04:56 PM
#10
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https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ld-begins.html
Only have a couple of tear down pics so far. Will keep it going though. As for actual power increase/torque I'm not to sure on those numbers. Other guys might be abe to speculate those. I still need to find out what gear is in the rearend, I'm guessing 273's, so will also be looking into changing those out later. As tired as the engine is after 200K miles there should be a night and day difference I'm hoping.
Coppercutlass your car sounds very nice. That 280H definitely gives it a mean sound. If I go with the 280H I will heed your advice about the converter.
Last edited by rcrac3r; October 29th, 2012 at 05:01 PM.
October 29th, 2012, 05:05 PM
#11
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Just look around and get a feel for how aggressive you want to go. I went through three cams before I got the hang of picking one out. IMO, the build revolves around the cam. Figure out exactly what you want from the car, pick the cam that gets you there and build the rest to match.
First things first, tear down that engine and make sure you have a usable core. If the timing chain broke and it hammered valves closed, then the heads could be significantly damaged and the bores could be marred past usefulness. And if it's been rebuilt in the past then it may already have everything ground to the end of their life.
The stock cams aren't all that great.
Also, cams are like opinions. For example, I'll never use another Comp grind.
My favorite for a small block is a cam in the 214/224 range with a 2000-ish stall converter. Get the compression into the 9:1 to 9.5:1 range, the comp roller-tip rocker set, a good cloyes timing chain, then pour in money as available on other goodies. I also don't mind using manifolds on the street. Simple and easy.
In my '72 with 2.73 peg-leg rear this was plenty of power. Not scary-fast, but more than the tires could handle, lots of fun around town, mild mannered (600 rpm idle!) and a good highway cruiser.
First things first, tear down that engine and make sure you have a usable core. If the timing chain broke and it hammered valves closed, then the heads could be significantly damaged and the bores could be marred past usefulness. And if it's been rebuilt in the past then it may already have everything ground to the end of their life.
The stock cams aren't all that great.
Also, cams are like opinions. For example, I'll never use another Comp grind.
My favorite for a small block is a cam in the 214/224 range with a 2000-ish stall converter. Get the compression into the 9:1 to 9.5:1 range, the comp roller-tip rocker set, a good cloyes timing chain, then pour in money as available on other goodies. I also don't mind using manifolds on the street. Simple and easy.
In my '72 with 2.73 peg-leg rear this was plenty of power. Not scary-fast, but more than the tires could handle, lots of fun around town, mild mannered (600 rpm idle!) and a good highway cruiser.
Build the car around the cam? I choose the cam when everything else is determined.
A "useable core"??? You can bore these things .068 with ease and up to 4.185 (which is almost .130 over). And even if it is 350 cores are redily available at a niminal cost.
"If the timing chain broke and it hammered valves closed, then the heads could be significantly damaged and the bores could be marred past usefulness."
I don't even know what that means. SBOs are not interference engines and a broken chain rarely, if ever, causes a valve to drop.
214/224 cams SUCK. I had one in a 9 to 1 355 and switched to a 210/216 and picked up .8. That old genenical cam is terrible in a low comp 350.
"then pour in money as available on other goodies. I also don't mind using manifolds on the street. Simple and easy."
Pour money into "goodies" and use stock manifolds? Ridiculous.
Finn, my advice to you is to either copy a build that you think will meet your goals within your budget or get with an experienced Olds builder and do the same. One of the biggest issues is piston choice which determines compression ratio and the direction of the build.
Last edited by captjim; October 29th, 2012 at 05:19 PM.
October 29th, 2012, 05:06 PM
#12
It will need headers trust me ., and realisticly a converter that flashes between 2600-2800 rpm. If you are not racing it a lower stall will work fine i had a 2200 to 2400 in there for a while it ran good but at the track the 60 ft was horrible even on the street it struggle to do a good burnout from a dead stop. It really woke up when i put in the 2600-2800 stall but on that combo for me it flashed at around 3000 rpm which made it really fun to drive. I would special order a converter in your case. My car is much lighter and i have 3.73 gears .when ordering a converter there is alot more than where it starts to make power . I had 3 diffrent converters on that 350 with the 280h. Even the one i like im sending out to get re worked because i know it isn't quiet right. Btw i run full length headers an x pipe and hooker aero chamber mufflers with no tail pipes all i have is turn downs at the axle. I ran a 2200-2400 stall then tried a 2300-2600 stall both flashed at roughly 2400 rpm. i then tried the 2600-2800 and that flashed at roughly 3000 rpm. My advice on converters is talk to someone who really knows what they are doing. i found out by trial and error and now sending one out . I dont mind trying things out and spending a little money to find out the hard way but some people dont have the time space or money to do it that way.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 29th, 2012 at 05:13 PM.
October 29th, 2012, 06:57 PM
#13
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"Finn, my advice to you is to either copy a build that you think will meet your goals within your budget"
@captjim, this is what I am looking to do, its just finding the right one.
@coppercutlass, what would it cost me to do what you suggested? I haven't set a budget yet because I have no idea what it costs. You think your suggestion would be good and reliable for what I explained I wanted?
@captjim, this is what I am looking to do, its just finding the right one.
@coppercutlass, what would it cost me to do what you suggested? I haven't set a budget yet because I have no idea what it costs. You think your suggestion would be good and reliable for what I explained I wanted?
October 29th, 2012, 07:09 PM
#14
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"Finn, my advice to you is to either copy a build that you think will meet your goals within your budget"
@captjim, this is what I am looking to do, its just finding the right one.
@coppercutlass, what would it cost me to do what you suggested? I haven't set a budget yet because I have no idea what it costs. You think your suggestion would be good and reliable for what I explained I wanted?
@captjim, this is what I am looking to do, its just finding the right one.
@coppercutlass, what would it cost me to do what you suggested? I haven't set a budget yet because I have no idea what it costs. You think your suggestion would be good and reliable for what I explained I wanted?
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...arts-list.html
Here is my high 13 second 9 to 1 355 driver,
http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=28012
October 29th, 2012, 07:14 PM
#15
That build cost me under 2500 with carb and dist. and some horse trading and bargain finding/bartering . But i reused the pistons everything was pretty much freshened up so machining cost's where very minimal. I just finished putting an engine together and just for the engine . Thats not carb , dist. etc. just intake to oil pan cost me around 3500 and that's with some horse trading and stuff like that but everything was machined, bored, balanced etc.
October 29th, 2012, 07:38 PM
#16
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it is a 1970 350, from the research I've done this should have #6 heads. From what I have read these are good heads. If I just do a rebuild, reusing the pistons and heads, get a mild cam, and say an edelbrock performer intake, I already have an edelbrock 1406 carb, and headers and upgrade my exhaust what would I get out of that, and what would that cost me? I have an hei distributor already that works fine. Also you guys keep talking about converters, what is that? It seems you are talking about the tranny, I would prefer to not have to touch the tranny
Last edited by Finn5033; October 29th, 2012 at 07:42 PM.
October 30th, 2012, 04:57 AM
#17
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You can do a half-azz re-ring for $2500, but if the cylinders are worn (and they will be) ringf seal will be less than optimum. Same with the heads, you can do a good valve job, a little port work, weld up the dividers and fill the crossovers and it will run better than if you lap the valves. In the end you will get what you pay for.
Honestly, and I hate saying this because I love the little 350, you might be ahead of the game finding a running 455.
Honestly, and I hate saying this because I love the little 350, you might be ahead of the game finding a running 455.
October 30th, 2012, 06:58 AM
#18
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. A 15# oil pressure light shining as I went thru the traps scared the hell out of me. So no thanks I was very happy when my 380 was switched to the DX and I could have my SB back.
October 30th, 2012, 07:16 AM
#19
@ jim i agree to some extent on what you say. My $2500 engine with the 260h still to this day has no blow by and it has been running now for 5 years It's been in my dad's car now for 2 of those . The engine with the 280h cam was worn and that one did have blow by but even then not alot but that engine was short lived . Not throwing fuel to the fire but i have experieced sucess and failure with a " Half AZZ" re ring style build. Im not saying It's right but it's not always wrong either. My sencond build I pushed it the first build was very conservative perf. wise. Gotta take the good with the bad and bad with the good.
October 30th, 2012, 07:38 AM
#20
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cutlas s 1970
i have a 1970 cutlas s with 350 rocket in it. its a full frame off restoration . how ever i got a knock in my engine i bought the car n i know nothing of mechanics. i need a reliable mechanic to get it done . hopping some one can guide me in the rite direction. I'm in punta gorda florida
October 30th, 2012, 07:39 AM
#21
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Sorry Jim, but I'm getting tired of hearing this. Over the years I've had 2 BBs in my car. A 461 low compression, small cam & Torker. Finished out the season after I dropped a valve in my 350. The 2nd was a 496 that had some snort (ran 9.98) should have run faster but it did have problems. Did a bunch of convertor/rear gear tests. Neither BB impressed me esp. the oil pressure . A 15# oil pressure light shining as I went thru the traps scared the hell out of me. So no thanks I was very happy when my 380 was switched to the DX and I could have my SB back.
. A 15# oil pressure light shining as I went thru the traps scared the hell out of me. So no thanks I was very happy when my 380 was switched to the DX and I could have my SB back.I agree Nick, but we are not talking about a race car with a $10,000 budget.
October 30th, 2012, 07:40 AM
#22
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@ jim i agree to some extent on what you say. My $2500 engine with the 260h still to this day has no blow by and it has been running now for 5 years It's been in my dad's car now for 2 of those . The engine with the 280h cam was worn and that one did have blow by but even then not alot but that engine was short lived . Not throwing fuel to the fire but i have experieced sucess and failure with a " Half AZZ" re ring style build. Im not saying It's right but it's not always wrong either. My sencond build I pushed it the first build was very conservative perf. wise. Gotta take the good with the bad and bad with the good.
October 30th, 2012, 07:59 AM
#24
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With the miles stated on the engine block your working with I bet my money that your looking at boring the block in any case which will require replacing the pistons. Might as well install a good set of aftermarket pistons it will be worth the cost. It will be worth it in the long run, mild head work, and cam selection will then enhance the final build.
You can check e-bay, Craig's list, racing junk and other sites and with some time spent searching by quality parts for bargain prices. I have built two Olds engines this way at reasonable prices. Not cheap but reasonable. Good machine work is also important to the build. Find a machine shop that understands Oldsmobile engines and has the proper bore plates, etc for working on your build
You can check e-bay, Craig's list, racing junk and other sites and with some time spent searching by quality parts for bargain prices. I have built two Olds engines this way at reasonable prices. Not cheap but reasonable. Good machine work is also important to the build. Find a machine shop that understands Oldsmobile engines and has the proper bore plates, etc for working on your build
October 30th, 2012, 09:17 AM
#25
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@citcapp, If I am going to do this at all I want to do it right. The engine had around 104,000 i think when the timing chain went. Do you have any suggestions of brand names of parts to look for when looking for pistons? You said mild head work so I assume you mean I should keep and re-use the #6 heads? Do you have any suggestion for a cam to get if I go this route. The other things I would do is get a performer intake, headers and an upgraded exhaust. Also I had ascked a question about converters in an earlier post but had no answers on that yet. What is a converter? Is this something to do with the tranny?
Last edited by Finn5033; October 30th, 2012 at 09:20 AM.
October 30th, 2012, 09:25 AM
#26
Yes the converter is for the tranny if you upgrade to a bigger cam chances are you will need to upgrade the converter. Im running 6 heads milled with big valves everything but port work with roller tip rockers and milling the intake roughly 1500 dollrs to re build. If you buy new pistons the speed pro's are good but there are better one out there . In my new engine im running speed pro flat tops. Your question is a little hard to answer some cams need to be geared so that will mean rear end work . picking a cam will come down to your compression, gear , converter , what it's use will be. etc.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2012 at 09:28 AM.
October 30th, 2012, 12:51 PM
#27
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How involved is changing the converter? Does it defeat the purpose of building up the engine at all if you don't change the converter? Do you have to pull the tranny out to do that? I know I don't want to do any rear end work so I will stay away from any cam that requires that.
October 31st, 2012, 08:36 AM
#29
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The convertor can be changed when you swap the motor, it is right on the back of the motor. Your stock convertor will launch your car 1600 to 1800 rpm full throttle. An aftermarket convertor will launch higher, I really liked my 2400 rpm launch. Not switching to a 3.08 or 3.23 rear gear, limits both convertor stall and cam duration. I would go 2000 stall and keep the cam in the 205-215 duration range. Not all cams are equal, talk to someone who knows cams. Problem with the Olds 350 is piston choices. There are a few flat top pistons. The Speed Pro forged pistons are old school, require .0045" clearance, heavy and thick inefficient ring pack. The Probe 3cc pistons are slightly more money but are lighter weight and have a thin, efficient ring pack. The CP 1.5cc pistons are similar but $200 more. With Probe pistons, .010" pistons in the hole, normal .041" Fel Pro head gaskets and 70cc heads you have 9.6 to 1. Problem is the heads might measure less and raise the compression more. You would need a bigger cam and convertor plus the gears to work properly. The Speed Pro 6cc piston is your best bet to keep it mild, 9.3 to 1 with the same specs. Don't even think about cast pistons, just ask Captjim what he had to do. My 403 ultra cheapo build lasted well for what it was but never ran what I wanted at the track. I also love the Olds 350, it should have been the go to engine, not the sbc.
October 31st, 2012, 11:43 AM
#30
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The convertor can be changed when you swap the motor, it is right on the back of the motor. Your stock convertor will launch your car 1600 to 1800 rpm full throttle. An aftermarket convertor will launch higher, I really liked my 2400 rpm launch. Not switching to a 3.08 or 3.23 rear gear, limits both convertor stall and cam duration. I would go 2000 stall and keep the cam in the 205-215 duration range. Not all cams are equal, talk to someone who knows cams. Problem with the Olds 350 is piston choices. There are a few flat top pistons. The Speed Pro forged pistons are old school, require .0045" clearance, heavy and thick inefficient ring pack. The Probe 3cc pistons are slightly more money but are lighter weight and have a thin, efficient ring pack. The CP 1.5cc pistons are similar but $200 more. With Probe pistons, .010" pistons in the hole, normal .041" Fel Pro head gaskets and 70cc heads you have 9.6 to 1. Problem is the heads might measure less and raise the compression more. You would need a bigger cam and convertor plus the gears to work properly. The Speed Pro 6cc piston is your best bet to keep it mild, 9.3 to 1 with the same specs. Don't even think about cast pistons, just ask Captjim what he had to do. My 403 ultra cheapo build lasted well for what it was but never ran what I wanted at the track. I also love the Olds 350, it should have been the go to engine, not the sbc.
October 31st, 2012, 03:07 PM
#31
An sbc is small block chevy. Imo 3.42 gears with a 2200 stall converter ad a nice shift kit are great on the street. I ran this combo with a th400 . The rpms where not too high on the high way and it had plenty of pep on the street. Do a mild build on your engine have a trans shop do a shift kit and a stall converter and also check it while it's out, have a shop do the rear end. For a nice( engine ) rebuild ,trans work and rear end realisticly you are looking in the 5 to 6 k range. I spent 4k total on my set up that was engine trans and rear end. Of course like always i know people or do some bartering or trading to keep prices in check. My mild build and first combo in my cutlass the engine ran me 2300 , the trans was a trans the shop built for a guy and he never showed it was a fully built th400 i picked up for 700 after i got the torque converter i was in it 1000, I had a local racer build my rear end for 700 parts and labor.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 31st, 2012 at 06:33 PM.
October 31st, 2012, 05:24 PM
#32
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
Finn, no offense, but you need to do some reading.
We can't do the job of providing a full basic education in automotive drivetrain theory here and still go to work and see our families.
An internal combustion engine takes up to a certain amount of fuel and air mixture (at full throttle) into each cylinder, burns that mixture, takes some of the energy from that combustion and turns it into linear movement of the piston (most of the energy is wasted as heat), uses that linear movement to rotate the crankshaft, and uses this rotation to turn the transmission, then the driveshaft, then the pinion gear, then the ring gear, then the axles to the wheels.
The larger the cylinder, the more fuel can be burned in it, and the more power extracted - this goes for both the diameter of the cylinder (bore) and its length (stroke).
The more times within a given period (say a minute) that that cylinder can be filled and burned, the more power can be extracted in that period of time. This means that the faster the engine turns (the higher its maximum RPMs), the more power it can potentially make.
Because of the realities of physics (air and fuel having mass and behaving like fluids when pushed through tubes), engines will have RPM ranges where they perform the best, and where they perform poorly. Changing the camshaft will also affect where in the rev band the engine makes the most and the least power, by adjusting the timing of the opening and closing of the valves. A higher-revving engine will have less power at lower RPMs, and so needs to run in the rev range that makes it happiest.
An Olds engine was designed, in general, to rev up to about 4,500 RPM, with the possibility of stretching that a bit, maybe to a bit over 5,000, and to make decent power from 1,000 RPM and strong power from about 2,000 or 2,500. In order to get big power out of it, you've got to modify it to safely rev higher, and modify the induction system (intake manifold, heads, valves, exhaust manifolds) to flow more mixture.
Because Olds engines were made to make their torque and power at lower RPMs, the rest of the car's drivetrain was designed to let the engine run at lower RPMs. This means that the rear end ratio is tall (3:08 all the way down to 2:41 in some cases), which gives you lower RPMs and higher fuel economy on the highway, but less "off the line" pep.
If you have a manual transmission, you can use the gearshift and the clutch to adjust the gearing of the car to the needs of the engine, to a certain extent.
If you have an automatic transmission, you usually don't shift yourself, and there is no clutch. The clutch is replaced by the torque converter, which is a fluid coupling (in the '80s they made converters that could "lock up" electronically) between the engine and the transmission. The torque converter transmits torque from the engine to the transmission at a variable rate, depending on engine speed. When the engine RPMs are low (around idle), it passes essentially no torque. As the RPMs increase, it passes more and more torque, up until it "flashes" or "stalls" at a set RPM determined by the design of the converter and the actual torque input. The stock converter is designed to stall at low RPMs, in keeping with the low-RPM performance curve of the stock engine. If you change the design of the engine, and thereby change its performance curve, you need to use a converter with a profile that matches the performance characteristics of the new engine, or the converter will stall at a speed that is too low, locking the engine into trying to provide power at a bad point in its power band.
The overall gearing of the car is determined by the rear end ratio, which, in performance applications, is generally above 3:08, more like 3:23 up to 3:93, with 4:11 and 4:56 ratios being used mostly in racing, as they put your highway RPMs up too high to be practical for most people.
I hope that answers some of your questions.
- Eric
We can't do the job of providing a full basic education in automotive drivetrain theory here and still go to work and see our families.
An internal combustion engine takes up to a certain amount of fuel and air mixture (at full throttle) into each cylinder, burns that mixture, takes some of the energy from that combustion and turns it into linear movement of the piston (most of the energy is wasted as heat), uses that linear movement to rotate the crankshaft, and uses this rotation to turn the transmission, then the driveshaft, then the pinion gear, then the ring gear, then the axles to the wheels.
The larger the cylinder, the more fuel can be burned in it, and the more power extracted - this goes for both the diameter of the cylinder (bore) and its length (stroke).
The more times within a given period (say a minute) that that cylinder can be filled and burned, the more power can be extracted in that period of time. This means that the faster the engine turns (the higher its maximum RPMs), the more power it can potentially make.
Because of the realities of physics (air and fuel having mass and behaving like fluids when pushed through tubes), engines will have RPM ranges where they perform the best, and where they perform poorly. Changing the camshaft will also affect where in the rev band the engine makes the most and the least power, by adjusting the timing of the opening and closing of the valves. A higher-revving engine will have less power at lower RPMs, and so needs to run in the rev range that makes it happiest.
An Olds engine was designed, in general, to rev up to about 4,500 RPM, with the possibility of stretching that a bit, maybe to a bit over 5,000, and to make decent power from 1,000 RPM and strong power from about 2,000 or 2,500. In order to get big power out of it, you've got to modify it to safely rev higher, and modify the induction system (intake manifold, heads, valves, exhaust manifolds) to flow more mixture.
Because Olds engines were made to make their torque and power at lower RPMs, the rest of the car's drivetrain was designed to let the engine run at lower RPMs. This means that the rear end ratio is tall (3:08 all the way down to 2:41 in some cases), which gives you lower RPMs and higher fuel economy on the highway, but less "off the line" pep.
If you have a manual transmission, you can use the gearshift and the clutch to adjust the gearing of the car to the needs of the engine, to a certain extent.
If you have an automatic transmission, you usually don't shift yourself, and there is no clutch. The clutch is replaced by the torque converter, which is a fluid coupling (in the '80s they made converters that could "lock up" electronically) between the engine and the transmission. The torque converter transmits torque from the engine to the transmission at a variable rate, depending on engine speed. When the engine RPMs are low (around idle), it passes essentially no torque. As the RPMs increase, it passes more and more torque, up until it "flashes" or "stalls" at a set RPM determined by the design of the converter and the actual torque input. The stock converter is designed to stall at low RPMs, in keeping with the low-RPM performance curve of the stock engine. If you change the design of the engine, and thereby change its performance curve, you need to use a converter with a profile that matches the performance characteristics of the new engine, or the converter will stall at a speed that is too low, locking the engine into trying to provide power at a bad point in its power band.
The overall gearing of the car is determined by the rear end ratio, which, in performance applications, is generally above 3:08, more like 3:23 up to 3:93, with 4:11 and 4:56 ratios being used mostly in racing, as they put your highway RPMs up too high to be practical for most people.
I hope that answers some of your questions.
- Eric
October 31st, 2012, 06:31 PM
#33
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
October 31st, 2012, 06:31 PM
#34
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
Finn, no offense, but you need to do some reading.
We can't do the job of providing a full basic education in automotive drivetrain theory here and still go to work and see our families.
An internal combustion engine takes up to a certain amount of fuel and air mixture (at full throttle) into each cylinder, burns that mixture, takes some of the energy from that combustion and turns it into linear movement of the piston (most of the energy is wasted as heat), uses that linear movement to rotate the crankshaft, and uses this rotation to turn the transmission, then the driveshaft, then the pinion gear, then the ring gear, then the axles to the wheels.
The larger the cylinder, the more fuel can be burned in it, and the more power extracted - this goes for both the diameter of the cylinder (bore) and its length (stroke).
The more times within a given period (say a minute) that that cylinder can be filled and burned, the more power can be extracted in that period of time. This means that the faster the engine turns (the higher its maximum RPMs), the more power it can potentially make.
Because of the realities of physics (air and fuel having mass and behaving like fluids when pushed through tubes), engines will have RPM ranges where they perform the best, and where they perform poorly. Changing the camshaft will also affect where in the rev band the engine makes the most and the least power, by adjusting the timing of the opening and closing of the valves. A higher-revving engine will have less power at lower RPMs, and so needs to run in the rev range that makes it happiest.
An Olds engine was designed, in general, to rev up to about 4,500 RPM, with the possibility of stretching that a bit, maybe to a bit over 5,000, and to make decent power from 1,000 RPM and strong power from about 2,000 or 2,500. In order to get big power out of it, you've got to modify it to safely rev higher, and modify the induction system (intake manifold, heads, valves, exhaust manifolds) to flow more mixture.
Because Olds engines were made to make their torque and power at lower RPMs, the rest of the car's drivetrain was designed to let the engine run at lower RPMs. This means that the rear end ratio is tall (3:08 all the way down to 2:41 in some cases), which gives you lower RPMs and higher fuel economy on the highway, but less "off the line" pep.
If you have a manual transmission, you can use the gearshift and the clutch to adjust the gearing of the car to the needs of the engine, to a certain extent.
If you have an automatic transmission, you usually don't shift yourself, and there is no clutch. The clutch is replaced by the torque converter, which is a fluid coupling (in the '80s they made converters that could "lock up" electronically) between the engine and the transmission. The torque converter transmits torque from the engine to the transmission at a variable rate, depending on engine speed. When the engine RPMs are low (around idle), it passes essentially no torque. As the RPMs increase, it passes more and more torque, up until it "flashes" or "stalls" at a set RPM determined by the design of the converter and the actual torque input. The stock converter is designed to stall at low RPMs, in keeping with the low-RPM performance curve of the stock engine. If you change the design of the engine, and thereby change its performance curve, you need to use a converter with a profile that matches the performance characteristics of the new engine, or the converter will stall at a speed that is too low, locking the engine into trying to provide power at a bad point in its power band.
The overall gearing of the car is determined by the rear end ratio, which, in performance applications, is generally above 3:08, more like 3:23 up to 3:93, with 4:11 and 4:56 ratios being used mostly in racing, as they put your highway RPMs up too high to be practical for most people.
I hope that answers some of your questions.
- Eric
We can't do the job of providing a full basic education in automotive drivetrain theory here and still go to work and see our families.
An internal combustion engine takes up to a certain amount of fuel and air mixture (at full throttle) into each cylinder, burns that mixture, takes some of the energy from that combustion and turns it into linear movement of the piston (most of the energy is wasted as heat), uses that linear movement to rotate the crankshaft, and uses this rotation to turn the transmission, then the driveshaft, then the pinion gear, then the ring gear, then the axles to the wheels.
The larger the cylinder, the more fuel can be burned in it, and the more power extracted - this goes for both the diameter of the cylinder (bore) and its length (stroke).
The more times within a given period (say a minute) that that cylinder can be filled and burned, the more power can be extracted in that period of time. This means that the faster the engine turns (the higher its maximum RPMs), the more power it can potentially make.
Because of the realities of physics (air and fuel having mass and behaving like fluids when pushed through tubes), engines will have RPM ranges where they perform the best, and where they perform poorly. Changing the camshaft will also affect where in the rev band the engine makes the most and the least power, by adjusting the timing of the opening and closing of the valves. A higher-revving engine will have less power at lower RPMs, and so needs to run in the rev range that makes it happiest.
An Olds engine was designed, in general, to rev up to about 4,500 RPM, with the possibility of stretching that a bit, maybe to a bit over 5,000, and to make decent power from 1,000 RPM and strong power from about 2,000 or 2,500. In order to get big power out of it, you've got to modify it to safely rev higher, and modify the induction system (intake manifold, heads, valves, exhaust manifolds) to flow more mixture.
Because Olds engines were made to make their torque and power at lower RPMs, the rest of the car's drivetrain was designed to let the engine run at lower RPMs. This means that the rear end ratio is tall (3:08 all the way down to 2:41 in some cases), which gives you lower RPMs and higher fuel economy on the highway, but less "off the line" pep.
If you have a manual transmission, you can use the gearshift and the clutch to adjust the gearing of the car to the needs of the engine, to a certain extent.
If you have an automatic transmission, you usually don't shift yourself, and there is no clutch. The clutch is replaced by the torque converter, which is a fluid coupling (in the '80s they made converters that could "lock up" electronically) between the engine and the transmission. The torque converter transmits torque from the engine to the transmission at a variable rate, depending on engine speed. When the engine RPMs are low (around idle), it passes essentially no torque. As the RPMs increase, it passes more and more torque, up until it "flashes" or "stalls" at a set RPM determined by the design of the converter and the actual torque input. The stock converter is designed to stall at low RPMs, in keeping with the low-RPM performance curve of the stock engine. If you change the design of the engine, and thereby change its performance curve, you need to use a converter with a profile that matches the performance characteristics of the new engine, or the converter will stall at a speed that is too low, locking the engine into trying to provide power at a bad point in its power band.
The overall gearing of the car is determined by the rear end ratio, which, in performance applications, is generally above 3:08, more like 3:23 up to 3:93, with 4:11 and 4:56 ratios being used mostly in racing, as they put your highway RPMs up too high to be practical for most people.
I hope that answers some of your questions.
- Eric
November 1st, 2012, 07:23 AM
#36
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Chisago City, MN
Posts: 453
Finn, no offense, but you need to do some reading.
We can't do the job of providing a full basic education in automotive drivetrain theory here and still go to work and see our families.
An internal combustion engine takes up to a certain amount of fuel and air mixture (at full throttle) into each cylinder, burns that mixture, takes some of the energy from that combustion and turns it into linear movement of the piston (most of the energy is wasted as heat), uses that linear movement to rotate the crankshaft, and uses this rotation to turn the transmission, then the driveshaft, then the pinion gear, then the ring gear, then the axles to the wheels.
The larger the cylinder, the more fuel can be burned in it, and the more power extracted - this goes for both the diameter of the cylinder (bore) and its length (stroke).
The more times within a given period (say a minute) that that cylinder can be filled and burned, the more power can be extracted in that period of time. This means that the faster the engine turns (the higher its maximum RPMs), the more power it can potentially make.
Because of the realities of physics (air and fuel having mass and behaving like fluids when pushed through tubes), engines will have RPM ranges where they perform the best, and where they perform poorly. Changing the camshaft will also affect where in the rev band the engine makes the most and the least power, by adjusting the timing of the opening and closing of the valves. A higher-revving engine will have less power at lower RPMs, and so needs to run in the rev range that makes it happiest.
An Olds engine was designed, in general, to rev up to about 4,500 RPM, with the possibility of stretching that a bit, maybe to a bit over 5,000, and to make decent power from 1,000 RPM and strong power from about 2,000 or 2,500. In order to get big power out of it, you've got to modify it to safely rev higher, and modify the induction system (intake manifold, heads, valves, exhaust manifolds) to flow more mixture.
Because Olds engines were made to make their torque and power at lower RPMs, the rest of the car's drivetrain was designed to let the engine run at lower RPMs. This means that the rear end ratio is tall (3:08 all the way down to 2:41 in some cases), which gives you lower RPMs and higher fuel economy on the highway, but less "off the line" pep.
If you have a manual transmission, you can use the gearshift and the clutch to adjust the gearing of the car to the needs of the engine, to a certain extent.
If you have an automatic transmission, you usually don't shift yourself, and there is no clutch. The clutch is replaced by the torque converter, which is a fluid coupling (in the '80s they made converters that could "lock up" electronically) between the engine and the transmission. The torque converter transmits torque from the engine to the transmission at a variable rate, depending on engine speed. When the engine RPMs are low (around idle), it passes essentially no torque. As the RPMs increase, it passes more and more torque, up until it "flashes" or "stalls" at a set RPM determined by the design of the converter and the actual torque input. The stock converter is designed to stall at low RPMs, in keeping with the low-RPM performance curve of the stock engine. If you change the design of the engine, and thereby change its performance curve, you need to use a converter with a profile that matches the performance characteristics of the new engine, or the converter will stall at a speed that is too low, locking the engine into trying to provide power at a bad point in its power band.
The overall gearing of the car is determined by the rear end ratio, which, in performance applications, is generally above 3:08, more like 3:23 up to 3:93, with 4:11 and 4:56 ratios being used mostly in racing, as they put your highway RPMs up too high to be practical for most people.
I hope that answers some of your questions.
- Eric
We can't do the job of providing a full basic education in automotive drivetrain theory here and still go to work and see our families.
An internal combustion engine takes up to a certain amount of fuel and air mixture (at full throttle) into each cylinder, burns that mixture, takes some of the energy from that combustion and turns it into linear movement of the piston (most of the energy is wasted as heat), uses that linear movement to rotate the crankshaft, and uses this rotation to turn the transmission, then the driveshaft, then the pinion gear, then the ring gear, then the axles to the wheels.
The larger the cylinder, the more fuel can be burned in it, and the more power extracted - this goes for both the diameter of the cylinder (bore) and its length (stroke).
The more times within a given period (say a minute) that that cylinder can be filled and burned, the more power can be extracted in that period of time. This means that the faster the engine turns (the higher its maximum RPMs), the more power it can potentially make.
Because of the realities of physics (air and fuel having mass and behaving like fluids when pushed through tubes), engines will have RPM ranges where they perform the best, and where they perform poorly. Changing the camshaft will also affect where in the rev band the engine makes the most and the least power, by adjusting the timing of the opening and closing of the valves. A higher-revving engine will have less power at lower RPMs, and so needs to run in the rev range that makes it happiest.
An Olds engine was designed, in general, to rev up to about 4,500 RPM, with the possibility of stretching that a bit, maybe to a bit over 5,000, and to make decent power from 1,000 RPM and strong power from about 2,000 or 2,500. In order to get big power out of it, you've got to modify it to safely rev higher, and modify the induction system (intake manifold, heads, valves, exhaust manifolds) to flow more mixture.
Because Olds engines were made to make their torque and power at lower RPMs, the rest of the car's drivetrain was designed to let the engine run at lower RPMs. This means that the rear end ratio is tall (3:08 all the way down to 2:41 in some cases), which gives you lower RPMs and higher fuel economy on the highway, but less "off the line" pep.
If you have a manual transmission, you can use the gearshift and the clutch to adjust the gearing of the car to the needs of the engine, to a certain extent.
If you have an automatic transmission, you usually don't shift yourself, and there is no clutch. The clutch is replaced by the torque converter, which is a fluid coupling (in the '80s they made converters that could "lock up" electronically) between the engine and the transmission. The torque converter transmits torque from the engine to the transmission at a variable rate, depending on engine speed. When the engine RPMs are low (around idle), it passes essentially no torque. As the RPMs increase, it passes more and more torque, up until it "flashes" or "stalls" at a set RPM determined by the design of the converter and the actual torque input. The stock converter is designed to stall at low RPMs, in keeping with the low-RPM performance curve of the stock engine. If you change the design of the engine, and thereby change its performance curve, you need to use a converter with a profile that matches the performance characteristics of the new engine, or the converter will stall at a speed that is too low, locking the engine into trying to provide power at a bad point in its power band.
The overall gearing of the car is determined by the rear end ratio, which, in performance applications, is generally above 3:08, more like 3:23 up to 3:93, with 4:11 and 4:56 ratios being used mostly in racing, as they put your highway RPMs up too high to be practical for most people.
I hope that answers some of your questions.
- Eric
Last edited by Finn5033; November 1st, 2012 at 07:47 AM.
November 1st, 2012, 07:31 AM
#37
I think eric meant that in a nice honest maner. Usually he is a pretty nice guy. If you mod your engine with a stone stock trans, and a 2.56 rear gear your room for improvment wont be alot. Everyone wants that lopey idle but the truth is the get the sound/performance from it you need to mod other things like trans and rear end to make it perfrom right. Now if you bump the compression up you will be able to run a bigger cam, have a little bit better performance depending on set up tune etc. Now that you can run a bigger cam that stock stall converter will on work untill a certain rpm, If it is not swapped it will affect drivability and performance , If the rear gear is not changed the engine wont perform as it should. Im not saying all cam changes need this stuff. But if you make it a whole package deal you will be more happy. It comes up here alot guy's who who want to add a cam and intake headers. Most will agree address the rear end and trans first unless the engine is completly blown up because bang for the buck you will feel those big time in the seat of you pants. I mentioned it before keep your build mild maybe a stock style rebuild with a very mild cam that way you will have money to do some trans work and a rear gear. A stock engine with a good 2200-2400 stall with a 3.42 gear will perfrom better imo than a more modified rebuilt engine with stock trans and rear gear like a 2.56 . Im currently running a stone stock 307 in my 72 wilt headers and a holley 650 double pumper an hei with the timing bumped up. You would never guess it was a 307 under the hood. I might add that engine is worn but the engine is backed by a th400 with a 2400 stall with 3.73 gears . It will roast the tires and hold it's own in traffic. Im not saying my thought process is correct but it's another way to approach stuff.
Last edited by coppercutlass; November 1st, 2012 at 07:39 AM.
November 1st, 2012, 07:43 AM
#38
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Chisago City, MN
Posts: 453
@coppercutlass, thats what I mean, originally I would have preferred not to do rear end and tranny work. But if I need to do those things to get what I'm looking for than I will consider it. Thats why I have been asking questions about it. It just made me mad that he is basically suggesting that I don't know how a combustion engine works or even the difference between an automatic or manual tranny because I don't know how to build a drive train to fit an engine. I appreciate all your suggestions and have been taking notes and doing a lot of research. What your saying makes sense, and I am cosidering going this route. I checked with a shop close to where I live and they can do both the tranny and rear end. He said I could bring them the car and they would do the tranny work with shift kit and 2000-2200 stall converter, and the rear end with 3.42 gears for around $2,000.00. I could probably save a lot in labor if I take the stuff out myself and bring it to him. I consider myself to be pretty handy, but in the winter I am limited in space. I would prefer to drop the tranny without pulling the engine to save the space for now. Is it very difficult to pull them myself?
Last edited by Finn5033; November 1st, 2012 at 08:17 AM.
November 1st, 2012, 10:08 AM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
@coppercutlass, thats what I mean, originally I would have preferred not to do rear end and tranny work. But if I need to do those things to get what I'm looking for than I will consider it. Thats why I have been asking questions about it. It just made me mad that he is basically suggesting that I don't know how a combustion engine works or even the difference between an automatic or manual tranny because I don't know how to build a drive train to fit an engine. I appreciate all your suggestions and have been taking notes and doing a lot of research. What your saying makes sense, and I am cosidering going this route. I checked with a shop close to where I live and they can do both the tranny and rear end. He said I could bring them the car and they would do the tranny work with shift kit and 2000-2200 stall converter, and the rear end with 3.42 gears for around $2,000.00. I could probably save a lot in labor if I take the stuff out myself and bring it to him. I consider myself to be pretty handy, but in the winter I am limited in space. I would prefer to drop the tranny without pulling the engine to save the space for now. Is it very difficult to pull them myself?
November 1st, 2012, 10:28 AM
#40
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
Many of your posts have included questions that showed ignorance of very basic concepts and terms (along with an unwillingness to call on your friend Google).
We often have members here with surprisingly little automotive knowledge (though they can usually write a mean subroutine in C++), and these folks need to build a foundation before they can really understand what is going on. It is beyond our abilities to fully explain every detail of what they may need to know, but one of us will generally go out of his way to provide a quick synopsis to get them up to speed in a given thread, in the spirit of helpfulness. Fortunately, these days there are also excellent sources of information about all of this stuff freely available on the web.
If spending my free time to help you dents your delicate ego and pi__es you off, then I would be happy to refrain from helping you in the future.
Best of luck with your hot camshaft, low compression, low-stall converter, and tall gears.
- Eric
