EightyEightCut

Today I finally got my cutlass up and running after sitting for a few months..28 degrees out, what a wonderful day to choose to work on it.

I fired her up and let her run for about 15-20 minutes, no problems. Took it out for a test drive with a few buddies, came home, no problems. Was about to head to the bar for a drink, fired her up, noticed the power steering was out (which should have been my instinct to stop) but i was so happy about my car working again, i started going down the road. I noticed the temp gauge was going crazy so I pulled over and popped the hood...

both of my belts are off, my alternator belt is completely gone(that i just bought today ), and my water/ps belt is flipped upside down on the fan. i was able to get the belt back on and drive home, as soon as i shut the car off it sounded like the belt slipped again. I'm suspecting my water/ps slipped and caused the alternator belt to fly off to god knows where. any advice on belt slippage? everything seems to fit perfect on there, i'm really confused as of why it's doing this.

(sorry for the long story..i had a few drinks to forget what just happened )

joe_padavano

How about starting with some additional info on your car? You have a 1988 Cutlass with a 69 350. What accessory brackets, what pulleys, what water pump? Can you post a photo of the brackets and belts?

allyolds68

What have you changed recently. water pump? What Joe's eluding to is the most common reason for throwing belts is a mis-alignment of pulleys. Something as simple as not putting the correct spacer on the power steering bracket can cause it. The wrong water pump is the most common problem

84oldsDelta88

Just had a similar problem a few weeks ago. Check your water pump, the bearings are probably toast. With the belts off wiggle all the pulleys and see which one has play. It will most likely be the water pump if you havent changed yours in a while.

That was the problem with mine. new water pump and all is well again.

Or it could be a bracket issue. When i did my 350 swap i used all the 307 brackets and accessories to make life easier.

Also replace all belts as the ones that flipped over are probably severely worn out now.

Tedd Thompson

You said it was cold out, do you have anti freeze in the radiator it could have frozen up the pump and caused the belt to burn , Just a thought ....Tedd

Lady72nRob71

Was everything tightened correctly after the install?
Interesting how it gave no problems at first, then suddenly both belts came off...
PS must by tightened first, then the alt. PS has a couple hard-to-see bolts that could have been forgotten?

Kennybill

Also make sure your harmonic balancer is torqued.

citcapp

Simple thing as not enough tension on the belts could cause the problem as well. I was always taught that when installing a new belt tighten until you have no more then a total deflection of 1/2" in either direction up or down. Then run and let warm up perhaps take for a short trip and then re-tighten as the belts will then have stretched. Been using this information for over 50 years and hasn't let me down yet. This is assuming the pulleys as stated above are in alignment and all accessories are in good condition

Octania

Alignment issues that bad should be readily evident to the eye. Pix?

G-body folks are notorious for disregarding the factory engineered pulley system and removing a few things and figuring it'll be fine... but they end up with everything running thru one belt, which it can't handle. Seen this time and again. It sure didn't do that when it left the factory, eh?

So, yeah, what pulley system and accessory lot [alternator, PS, AC, etc.] are you using?

joe_padavano

Is this the car you were asking about a while ago with no PS pump and no A/C but with the 307 pulleys and brackets?

EightyEightCut

UPDATE : I FOUND A HUGE A** BRANCH IN MY FENDERWALL BEHIND MY FRONT RIGHT TIRE..IF THIS KNOCKED THE BELT OFF AFTER THE FIRST TIME GETTING IT OUT IN MONTHS IM SUING THE STREET DEPARTMENT..

I'll take a picture in a bit when I go out there..but to briefly answer everyones questions..

I just changed the P/s pump, water pump, and water pump pulley. I have no AC. I have a two groove water pump pulley when I used to have a 3 groove (i couldn't find a 3 groove anywhere)..i'm pretty sure the brackets are from the 307. the previous owner did the 307 to 350 swap.

From an eye view, everything looks lined up, but i'm no pro mechanic. Like I said, I let it run for about 20 minutes and it sounded perfect, shut it off, then took it for a run and it was completely fine.

Ill take into consideration I had a decent amount of slack on the belts (my old man told me the opposite of what Citcapp posted..:X).

I have a 75/25 mix of antifreeze right now since its cold out.

The old and new water pumps are the exact same length, the p/s pump is the exact same, the only thing i can think of is the water pump pulley since its a 2 groove instead of a 3. Thanks for all the replies so fast!

MDchanic

Oh boy, just what we love: numerous, independent, modified variables.

Pictures would definitely help.

- Eric

EightyEightCut

It's no fun when it's easy, right?

I'll upload them now, hopefully they came out half decent.

droldsmorland

eightyeightcut not preaching here but 50/50 mix on the coolant. If you have 75% coolant thats not great. 75% water would be ok if you live in a climate where it doesnt dip below 32*F. I always recommend 50/50 mix. You get the right freeze and rust inhibit protection. Use 50/50 premixed or use DI or Distilled water to cut straight coolant, not tap water.

EightyEightCut

ok thanks, i live in northwest indiana and i was recommended a higher mix during the winter since it gets anywhere from 32 to the negatives sometimes. i'm not going to be driving it when it snows but i want to keep it running and wasn't sure if the water would freeze.

droldsmorland

50/50 mix = -34*F You can go 60 coolant 40 water if you live in Nome Alaska.

EightyEightCut

sorry for the grainy photos, it gets dark at 4pm here now and my phone isn't very up to date. if this helps at all here it is!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...125164142.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...125164316.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...125164300.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...125164248.jpg/

EightyEightCut

i'll redo my coolant mix then, didn't know that. thanks!

MDchanic

I dunno - granted that the pictures aren't the clearest, as you say, the PS pump looks like it's not aligned with the other pulleys - did you use both of the spacers when you reinstalled it?

- Eric

EightyEightCut

there was one spacer originally on the lower side of the bracket; the top part didn't have one. i'll take pictures in the morning when its light out.

MDchanic

Maybe the 307s are different, but I believe that all PS pump brackets had two spacers.

John (2blu442) had at least one post illustrating this quite well.

- Eric

joe_padavano

307 PS pump brackets use the same spacers as all the others. There are TWO spacers, the one on the bottom front stud and the one on the side of the block where the lower bracket attaches in front of the motor mount. Everyone overlooks this because it usually falls out when the bolt gets removed and then lost. PS pump belt alignment problems are ALWAYS due to this spacer being missing.

joe_padavano

From the pictures it appears that you have a mixture of 307 parts, 350 parts, and aftermarket aluminum pulleys. It would have been helpful to have known this in your first post. No guarantees of anything when you mix and match factory and aftermarket from different years.

EightyEightCut

I'm a little confused, is the ps pump supposed to have two brackets? I only have one that sits between the pulley and the pump, and there is only one spacer on the bottom front stud.

EightyEightCut

Sorry, by the time I got to respond i answered in my 2nd post to the 9 people who replied. I was under the general assumption most people who build and modify their engines are going to have different parts on them. I bought the car this way (minus the new water pump pulley) and had no problems until months after.

MDchanic

As I mentioned above, here is the thread I was talking about.

This would be a mistaken assumption, or, at least, just because some modified cars have mixed setups doesn't mean that those setups actually work.
As has been discussed here a number of times, the only way to assure that your brackets and pulleys work is to take ALL of the brackets and pulleys from ONE engine and use them together.

UNTIL you changed a pulley and your belts.

- Eric

joe_padavano

There are actually THREE pieces to the PS pump bracket, the front bracket that goes between the pulley and the pump body, the lower bracket that goes from the bottom of the pump to the side of the block (where that second spacer goes), and the bracket from the front bracket to the front bolt on the exhaust manifold. On 307s this last link is actually part of the alternator bracket, but on earlier cars it's a separate part. Olds wasn't in the habbit of installing parts that weren't needed, so you need to put all these pieces back on to get the PS pump to stay aligned properly. THEN you need to properly tension the belt:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/472258-post18.html

Yes, people who modify cars change parts. Those who have no clue often remove factory installed parts that are required and install parts that are not matched to the application. "Different" does not always mean "better".

Octania

"Different" does not always mean "better".

WELL SAID, sir

I posted such a sign many years ago in the shop at the university after someone "sharpened" a drill bit and basically made it round and smooth. I clamped the bit to the sign and to the grinder.

"Different is NOT = Better
if you don't know how to sharpen bits, just ask"

EightyEightCut

The pictures only shows the one spot for a spacer where I have one. I did search and look at the link earlier when you posted it though.

Actually, I blew a head gasket and my car sat in my garage for 4 months. That's when everything went down hill.

EightyEightCut

Okay, I have the other bracket since its connected to the alternator bracket. I'll search around in the boxes of parts this guy handed to me with the car and I'll see if the bracket is in there.

This vehicle is so mixed matched from the previous owner and I'm no engineer or mechanic by any means, I simply came to this forum looking for help for I was certain numerous people have had similar issues before me. Anything "different" than brokenand not running is good enough for me at this point.

joe_padavano

Everyone here is happy to help, but you need to provide as much info as possible. We can't know what's original and what's modified on your car unless you tell us or at least provide clear photos. Otherwise we'll assume it's stock and that may lead to incorrect answers and spending money you don't need to.

EightyEightCut

Believe me..I am still finding things on this car that shouldn't be there, has been changed from stock, or hillbilly rigged (Theres a shoelace, literally a shoelace, bolted to my firewall and it just hangs there, not connected to anything). I'm 21, I didnt get the experience of growing up wrenching on cars, this is my first one and (besides looking on the internet for every question I have) I'm pretty much working by myself. A lot of this is all brand new to me, and I appreciate all the help I can get. I went from not even knowing what a distributor was to rebuilding the top half of my motor this summer, I'm trying to take in all that I can and one day be an old motorhead.

MDchanic

Okay, just to add to the fun, here are a few pictures to add to John's excellent selection in the linked thread.
These are photos of a pump removed from a completely original 1973 350 (even had 1973-dated GM plug wires). The brackets are in their proper positions.

MDchanic

And here are John's pictures of the upper spacer location, the first with no space, and the second with the spacer in place:

P1010064.jpg

P1010066.jpg

Here is my photo of the lower spacer location - I was not thinking about the spacers, and so didn't take any photos of the spacers themselves.



I hope this is helpful.

- Eric

EightyEightCut

this is exactly what i was looking for, thank you so much.

MDchanic

You're welcome.

joe_padavano

To be clear, this photo shows the 71(?)-later alternator bracket for A/C, which replaces the link bracket to the exhaust manifold bolt. The 307 alternator bracket that the O.P. presumably has is similar but not exactly the same.

EightyEightCut

after working out the kinks, this is the issue at the moment :

My alternator belt is rubbing against the end of my PS pump pulley.

I have the alternator belt going to the crank; and my water pump, ps pump, and crank on the other belt.

As far as re-routing, I've been looking at diagrams that show the alternator belt going to the water pump and the crank. Is this correct?

I don't think I can fit the alternator belt to go onto the water pump pulley as the groove sits in with the crank pulley. Any suggestions to this disaster I've gotten myself into (and made worse over time)?

MDchanic

Yes. You need to get a set of matching pulleys and belts.

However you do it, whether replacing the few that are wrong, or getting a complete set from a junkyard, doesn't matter, but they all have to match.

Also, your power steering pump needs to have both spacers.
I would recommend doing that first.

- Eric

EightyEightCut

Thanks Eric. I'll hit the junkyard tomorrow and pray they have an olds motor in there. I may just order a matching crank from where I got the water pump pulley, but I assume that wouldn't solve the power steering pulley issue?