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I've decided not to reuse the used Edelbrock 3712 cam and lifters in this motor. I just had a bad feeling reusing them I couldn't shake. I looked on Summit a while back, even the Melling version is nearly $400 Canadian. The 3712 is $353 US now, well over $400 CAD. I was looking on Amazon Canada. Last I looked they were out of stock for the 3712 but at a really good price. I looked the other day, 3 in stock at $266 CAD, that is $198 US! I couldn't get springs and pushrods to use my roller cam for that much money. Then both my transmissions would be very questionable under the extra power. I ordered the 3712 cam and lifters and a 5 quart jug of Lucas Hot Rod 10W30 high ZDDP oil which dropped $4 to $55, what I paid at Napa. Last I looked Napa had none on the shelf, had a whole display before. I take this all as a sign as the right thing to do since I thought of my Daughter's 2013 Ford Edge which had blower fan issues a month or so back. It popped into my head the day I found this, I texted her, no response. My Wife called her that day, she said funny you should ask, it stopped working today, first time since I last had an issue, a sign! I will throw a degree wheel to check it for accuracy. My Proform socket came to mount the degree wheel. Then break this cam in with this Lucas oil and the Qjet and HEI but have the EFI already to go for after cam break in. Should be here in a week or so then a partial disassembly and new cam degree and install.
a 5 quart jug of Lucas Hot Rod 10W30 high ZDDP oil which dropped $4 to $55,.
This would be my only concern. I would want to use a dedicated break in oil that has even higher concentrations of the additives needed for flat tappet cam break in. I have been using the Driven oils but there are others. https://drivenracingoil.com/i-304977...ak-in-oil.html
The Lucas Break In 20, 30 and 20W50 have 3643 PPM Zinc! The 5W20 is meant for modern engines, 1449 PPM Zinc. The Lucas Hot Rod oil, no matter the weight is 2100 even PPM Zinc.
The Lucas Break In 20, 30 and 20W50 have 3643 PPM Zinc! The 5W20 is meant for modern engines, 1449 PPM Zinc. The Lucas Hot Rod oil, no matter the weight is 2100 even PPM Zinc.
So almost twice the Zinc in the Break In oil. If those are the choices I would go with the 30W
So almost twice the Zinc in the Break In oil. If those are the choices I would go with the 30W
Thanks, the Driven and others are ridiculous $27 and up PER QUART or I would consider them. I was also leaning towards the 30W and will be priming with a drill. My plan is to do the 20 minute cam break in at 2000 rpm then do the drive around in first and rev it up and down to seat the rings. Then change the oil and filter only using Wix 51258 and put in the Hot Rod 10W30. I also have a filter cutter, plan on using it the first few oil changes.
That is $73.93 CAD for 5 PLUS $65 CAD shipping! I can get the Lucas 30W 5 QT for $52 with free shipping. We just don't have easy access to a lot of the same brands up here.
I've decided not to reuse the used Edelbrock 3712 cam and lifters in this motor. I just had a bad feeling reusing them I couldn't shake. I looked on Summit a while back, even the Melling version is nearly $400 Canadian. The 3712 is $353 US now, well over $400 CAD. I was looking on Amazon Canada. Last I looked they were out of stock for the 3712 but at a really good price. I looked the other day, 3 in stock at $266 CAD, that is $198 US! I couldn't get springs and pushrods to use my roller cam for that much money. Then both my transmissions would be very questionable under the extra power. I ordered the 3712 cam and lifters and a 5 quart jug of Lucas Hot Rod 10W30 high ZDDP oil which dropped $4 to $55, what I paid at Napa. Last I looked Napa had none on the shelf, had a whole display before. I take this all as a sign as the right thing to do since I thought of my Daughter's 2013 Ford Edge which had blower fan issues a month or so back. It popped into my head the day I found this, I texted her, no response. My Wife called her that day, she said funny you should ask, it stopped working today, first time since I last had an issue, a sign! I will throw a degree wheel to check it for accuracy. My Proform socket came to mount the degree wheel. Then break this cam in with this Lucas oil and the Qjet and HEI but have the EFI already to go for after cam break in. Should be here in a week or so then a partial disassembly and new cam degree and install.
Good idea on the cam, if it don't feel right, don't do it lol.
Good idea on the cam, if it don't feel right, don't do it lol.
I just don't want to risk it. This motor may eventually without the intake plugs you sending me may end up in a 88 to 95 GMC/Chebby 4x4 with my Performer and 670 cfm with Sanderson shorty headers and 2.5" exhaust I have. Maybe pallet my 403 and stroker parts, crank m, roller cam and send it to Dale Robinson next fall. All of next year's extra money is going for the TKX swap.
Came across this a couple months ago and thought it might be helpful. We have seen over the last couple of years a lot of flat tappet cam failures on break in and i am sure some of it has to do with offshore camshaft blanks however it also may be in some cases due to not using a "break in" oil during that critical first 500 miles! When we built an engine 50 or so years ago, we always used 30 weight NON-DETERGENT oil for break in. ZDDP levels were adequate in those days so special "break-in" oils were not available. The attached excerpt explains why you need to use "break-in" oil now especially for a flat tappet engine build. Hope this helps you decide on which oil to use for your engine.
Came across this a couple months ago and thought it might be helpful. We have seen over the last couple of years a lot of flat tappet cam failures on break in and i am sure some of it has to do with offshore camshaft blanks however it also may be in some cases due to not using a "break in" oil during that critical first 500 miles! When we built an engine 50 or so years ago, we always used 30 weight NON-DETERGENT oil for break in. ZDDP levels were adequate in those days so special "break-in" oils were not available. The attached excerpt explains why you need to use "break-in" oil now especially for a flat tappet engine build. Hope this helps you decide on which oil to use for your engine.
I agree about Non-detergent oil for engine break in. In my opinion the cam and lifter problems are due to deficient cam and lifter materials as well as excessively high valve spring pressures.
I had a cam go flat with these heads a custom Erson 214/214 .472/.472 110 LSA with the old 1100 ppm Quakerstate Defy with a Zddp additive. But also ran a used 204/214 with no issues. I used two of these cams one was slightly used actually raced and abused with stiff Comp dual valve springs. The other Melling cam broke in with stock 403 valve springs and 15W40 high ZDDP diesel oil. The springs on these current iron heads were supposedly a mild BBC spring, just a single not dual. I am using the 30W Lucas Break In oil due cost and actually being available in the 5 QT jug. If the roller lifters were truly fool proof, I would run them, bad failures with them. Then drilling out rocker arm studs, measuring push rod length, getting different valve springs and praying every drive my trans won't blow.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; October 2nd, 2023 at 10:31 AM.
Well the cam and lifters arrived. In a white box with Edelbrock on the outside, Olds Performer 350-403. I opened it up, Torco assembly lube, Edelbrock lifters and the cam suprised me. Under the Edelbrock part number sticker are the correct cam specs. I will try get it back apart, install the cam and lifters. Degreeing may be the next couple of weekends. If I can get the cam and rings broke in before the weather turns, it will be a big bonus. Then I can get in the garage for the Winter EFI install.
I know they are the same group of companies,, but jeeez, the hate for Comp isn’t gonna last long now
Actually I got a Comp cam from Edelbrock😉. Through Amazon Canada, $266 for cam and lifters. It has a Comp cam spec sheet along with Edelbrock's paper work inside. I got it installed in the motor, dot to dot on the timing set. I used Comp's lube on the the cam, Risoline ZDDP 5000 ppm additive in the feed holes and sides, Torco lube on the lifter bottoms. I'm going to pull the heads and put the degree wheel on it.
The custom cam for my build is Comp -Edelbrock. They should be good. Edelbrock did make improvements to Olds heads and new race carb. I would think they are in for the long haul. Like, they do not move manufacturing to oversea.
Maybe you can answer this, why do people continue to say and think that?
They own their aluminum castings foundry and now own their lifter facility as well, both in the US.
I don’t get it.
Maybe you can answer this, why do people continue to say and think that?
They own their aluminum castings foundry and now own their lifter facility as well, both in the US.
I don’t get it.
As a 66 year old. I remember how it was, here in the USA. Now it's all the lies to make people against each other. For profit and control! Truth and knowledge has been turned into hearsay! Science is is now lies..
Many have just loss their way.
Actually I got a Comp cam from Edelbrock😉. Through Amazon Canada, $266 for cam and lifters. It has a Comp cam spec sheet along with Edelbrock's paper work inside. I got it installed in the motor, dot to dot on the timing set. I used Comp's lube on the the cam, Risoline ZDDP 5000 ppm additive in the feed holes and sides, Torco lube on the lifter bottoms. I'm going to pull the heads and put the degree wheel on it.
what’s the stampings on the end of the cam itself?
I didn't even look before I installed it. Same specs as the usual 204/214 cam. The old one is 371, I believe. I will pull a heads, throw on the degree wheel and checker lifter with dial indicator tonight after work. I will add Teflon tape and maybe a new gasket to the drain plug. I am also using the finned Edelbrock aluminum valve covers which also need the serpentine adapter bracket clearanced due to them sticking out farther.
I had a mild Erson custom go flat from Mark, it sucked. Yeah, I have ran two of these cams, neither failed. Good question on the springs, I never checked them. I was more worried about the guide clearance, the couple I measured were around .003". They came with these rebuilt #6 heads, supposedly a mild BBC spring. Either way, pulled to 5500 rpm, no problem. I pulled the heads, I know this timing set is accurate, already checked it. Now to remember how to degree a cam, Comp includes instructions gor degreeing. Here are the cards and my set up.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; October 18th, 2023 at 05:29 PM.
These heads have a few miles on them, had them at least 5 years. They were an upgraded spring supposedly, I may be wrong on the BBC part or they didn't know, a long time ago now. Everything looked and measured right that I took apart on these heads. They added the 2.07 intake valves, machined the guides for positive seals and opened the bowls with a cutter along with new springs. The intake centerline with it dot to dot is 105, according to Comp's method.
I will probably throw it together at this point. I at least know where the ICL, slightly advanced over the last Performer cam. I wouldn't mind dropping the motor in Sunday before the weather gets ugly which is early next week.
Motor together in the car, on the mounts. I just need to install the intake. I just stuck the Performer on loosely, didn't want to risk damaging the RPM SEFI rails. Snow on Monday, just in time. Will get the intake on, the Lucas 30W break in oil in the pan and primed with a drill and get it ready to fire and break in the cam.
Well it runs. The good, 75 psi cold oil pressure and hot at 2000 rpm. It has 40 psi hot at 1000 rpm, very good, high volume oil pump and purple spring. The bad, it has a tick, seem to come and go yesterday after the 2000 rpm break in for 20 minutes. Had to do it in 3 shots. The fan controller took a crap and it ate the serpentine belt. Today it had a steady tick and 2004R still doesn't shift, going TH350. If it has any play in the rockers, the whole top end is coming off and the roller cam will go in. I love doing things twice. Still going Terminator X Max.
Well it runs. The good, oil pressure at 75 psi cold and at 2000 rpm hot. It has 40 psi hot at 1000 rpm. This is Lucas 30 weight with two little blue bottles of STP. I had to break it in 3 times to complete 20 minutes at 2000 rpm. The Davies Craig fan controller died, got to 230, should still be under warranty, just under thr 3 years. It also shredded the serpentine belt, removed one spacer, all is good. The bad it has a tick, seemed to come and go yesterday. Today it was steady. If there is any valve train play, the whole top end is coming off. Then it will get full roller cam and valve train, just need push rods and valve springs and drill out the heads for 7/16" studs, will get the Scorpion 1.72 to 1 full roller rocker arms I have. Will also get the Mr Gasket MLS head gaskets and a real smooth polish on the chambers, get ready for boost. I despise an adjustable valve train but may have to go that route. The 2004R still won't shift, going with the spare TH350. See I like doing things twice. I will be purchasing next month with Holley Day sales the Terminator X Max with the 4L60/80E harness and controller built in. It will get the Holley drop in 350 lph A body stock tank drop in pump and sender. I have all Winter to get this ready for Spring.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; November 19th, 2023 at 06:09 PM.
Take a deep breath! Take your time and try to hear where to tick. Is coming from. Even check the header bolts and gasket for leaks. Narrow it down to a area on the engine.
I guess you know the 2004R needs to connect to carb linkage and adjusted.
Yes, TV cable hooked up and set. I'm pretty sure it is the CK trans pump, It put out questionable pressure numbers, waited forever and wasn't cheap. It could be the exhaust crossover plugs, I may have ground them a bit too much. I will know next weekend if it is valve train. I literally have everything except push rods and valve springs for the roller conversion if the cam or lifters are failing. I'm very pleased with the oil pressure numbers, shows the clearances are what I asked for. I may do a compression test as well.
Well it runs. The good, oil pressure at 75 psi cold and at 2000 rpm hot. It has 40 psi hot at 1000 rpm. This is Lucas 30 weight with two little blue bottles of STP. I had to break it in 3 times to complete 20 minutes at 2000 rpm. The Davies Craig fan controller died, got to 230, should still be under warranty, just under thr 3 years. It also shredded the serpentine belt, removed one spacer, all is good. The bad it has a tick, seemed to come and go yesterday. Today it was steady. If there is any valve train play, the whole top end is coming off. Then it will get full roller cam and valve train, just need push rods and valve springs and drill out the heads for 7/16" studs, will get the Scorpion 1.72 to 1 full roller rocker arms I have. Will also get the Mr Gasket MLS head gaskets and a real smooth polish on the chambers, get ready for boost. I despise an adjustable valve train but may have to go that route. The 2004R still won't shift, going with the spare TH350. See I like doing things twice. I will be purchasing next month with Holley Day sales the Terminator X Max with the 4L60/80E harness and controller built in. It will get the Holley drop in 350 lph A body stock tank drop in pump and sender. I have all Winter to get this ready for Spring.
You despise an adjustable valve train? I think you have that backwards
September 29th, 2023, 06:07 AM
