Intake manifold gaskets.
April 10th, 2013, 07:57 PM
#41
Seasoned beater pilot.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,468
Hate to say it, but the crossover is almost just as important as the coolant ports. If they leak, they will cook the oil draining back through the valley into a big oldsmobile shaped chocolate cake.
April 10th, 2013, 08:07 PM
#44
Quit rubbing it in lol. Im screwed this time im gonna have to clean it 10 x compared to before. Im probably gonna have it all done by saturday im crossing my fingers that the cross over dont leak.
April 10th, 2013, 08:16 PM
#46
Like i said it's just that runner. I looked at all the bolt holes they all lined up and all the bolts went in with no fuss. it cant be that far off. This isnt like a big diffrence where i think something is horribly off. It might be intake or gasket design that dont jive . Correct me if im wrong . I looked at the pictures of the rpm intake runner lay out., the cross over ports are slightly under the overall height of the intake runners. So if this gasket was really that far off all those ports would be way higher than the center once since that one sits just slightly lower than the rest.
April 10th, 2013, 08:20 PM
#47
I just confirmed what i suspected. if you do the 360 degree view on summit racing of the rpm vs the performer. The perfromer has more flange vertically than the rpm above that runner that is not the case with the rpm.
April 10th, 2013, 08:40 PM
#49
Should have the desired amount. this is the first time i have had an intake not properly seal on me. I should have just gone with the individual shims which i used previously with the top end before with no issues on the last 350 . Lesson learned dont try to re invent the wheel do what works.
April 10th, 2013, 08:58 PM
#50
I have never let my silicon tack up,I want it sticky when i put my stuff together.....if it tacks up it doesn't flow into the cracks and crevices,Iam talking about the thick bead on the ends....i just use the finger method around the water jackets....
April 12th, 2013, 07:27 PM
#52
OK . Here is where im at. So today i buttoned up the intake install. I also took the time to measure the height of the intake flange to the edge of the valve cover . Both had cork gaskets and snugged on. I forgot the exact diffrence. But based on the fact i measured the exposed shim to the same edge on other areas and they where all the same. The only diffrence was from the flange of the rpm intake to the valve covers was shorter only on dr. side where the egr would mount. I readily had a stone stock egr equipt 307 to measure and yes there was a diffrence . This would explain and support what joe said the 330's had the individual shims and those intakes had no egr's so thats probably why it worked last time. This is just me brain storming here but it seems i have brought up and found out for the rest of us. It's only at the egr cross over port where the flange is taller .
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 12th, 2013 at 07:37 PM.
April 12th, 2013, 07:54 PM
#54
It has coolant in it. I also drained the oil since i just broke it in and drove it sround the block a few times. No leaks. While the intake coolant passages had no coolant i stuck my flashlight and inspected where the temp gauge would go and everything looked good. I will also back up what i said when i looked to make sure the inake as lined up properly along with the gasket. Also like i mentioned if that center cross over port section of the gasket stuck up that much the rest of the gasket port crush sections would stick up even more due to the center port being slightly lower than the rest of the intake ports.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 12th, 2013 at 08:23 PM.
April 12th, 2013, 07:55 PM
#55
I will find out if it works on sudnay when the weather is right and if i have money to put oil in it. But so far no coolant leaks. The crossover will be the main concern.
April 12th, 2013, 08:47 PM
#58
we shall see what happens. I drive it around with the hood off alot so if i see excessive smoke from the breathers i will know. I might just might be able to squeak by. im going to pop the intake off the 307 to see what kind of sealing surface i have. still planning on driving it to really find out what will happen.
April 14th, 2013, 05:12 PM
#59
So i did not take advantage of the nice weather today but maybe next weekend if it's nice i will take it out. I waas just curious if anyone else has some input on this gaskte manifold issue. Did i find a legit issue or is it all smoke and mirrors. I actually just double checked on the pictures of the flange on the same corssover port and to me on the performer with or with out the egr provisions the flange is taller than on the rpm intake. The reason i would like to know is so anyone else who is going to run an rpm knows not to get the turkey tray. Im not pointing fingers or mad . I chose to use the tray and all im loosing is time which i have plenty of. Anyone else care to shed light on this ? Im also yet to find out if it leaks but from the looks of the turkey tray it has 2 crush beads on the cross over port so i think i'll be fine.
April 14th, 2013, 05:42 PM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 484
I just went out and looked at my Performer RPM with the turkey tray gasket and on the drivers side, the crossover part of the tin gasket shows one of the "crush bead" areas exposed. Apparently only one crush bead is needed as I have over 500 miles on the engine now and have no leak problems at all with this set-up.
April 14th, 2013, 05:44 PM
#61
Coooooool so this also confirms what i said about the rpm intake not having as much flange. Which i hope this helps anyone else . If it works for you it works for me thanks. This is is the kind of feedback i like.
April 20th, 2013, 03:28 PM
#62
Update. We finally had some good weather and i put new oil and filter in it. Took it for a spin and no leaks. Now my oil sending unit is a diffrent story lol. Thats no biggie. But seems fine. I took it for a drive on the side streets ran very well.
April 22nd, 2013, 07:11 AM
#63
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 102
Used the Turkey Tray
And yet, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of W-30, W-31, and 307 with A4 and A5 intakes came out of the factory with aluminum intakes, iron heads, steel intake gaskets, and no leakage whatsoever. For that matter, my all-aluminum 215 has aluminum intake AND heads and uses a steel shim intake gasket, again with no leaks.
The steel gasket expands and contracts at virtually the same rate as the iron cylinder head, so how does that lead to leaks? How about a little math? CTE of aluminum is 12.3E-6 in/in/deg F, cast iron is 6E-6, and steel is 7.3E-6. Assume a 2" tall intake port to make the math easy, and expansion from 70 deg when the gasket is installed to 210 deg for a hot motor. That's a 140 deg F temp change. Under those conditions, the intake manifold port grows 0.003 inches in height. The head grows about 0.0015 inches, and the gasket grows 0.002 inches Total difference in height between the aluminum intake and the steel gasket is 0.001 inches.
Math is your friend.
Frankly, I still maintain that the leading cause of turkey tray failure is operator error at installation.
In addition, fuel smell in the oil is usually the result of flooding or over-rich starting, which causes gasoline to wash down the cylinder walls past the rings and has nothing to do with the intake gasket. Considering that the only time fuel is present in the intake, the intake runners are at a LOWER atmospheric pressure than the crankcase, so it would be a miracle of physics if fuel could somehow leak past the intake gasket under those conditions. The common sign of intake gasket failure is sucking oil from the valley into the runners, NOT the other way around.
The steel gasket expands and contracts at virtually the same rate as the iron cylinder head, so how does that lead to leaks? How about a little math? CTE of aluminum is 12.3E-6 in/in/deg F, cast iron is 6E-6, and steel is 7.3E-6. Assume a 2" tall intake port to make the math easy, and expansion from 70 deg when the gasket is installed to 210 deg for a hot motor. That's a 140 deg F temp change. Under those conditions, the intake manifold port grows 0.003 inches in height. The head grows about 0.0015 inches, and the gasket grows 0.002 inches Total difference in height between the aluminum intake and the steel gasket is 0.001 inches.
Math is your friend.
Frankly, I still maintain that the leading cause of turkey tray failure is operator error at installation.
In addition, fuel smell in the oil is usually the result of flooding or over-rich starting, which causes gasoline to wash down the cylinder walls past the rings and has nothing to do with the intake gasket. Considering that the only time fuel is present in the intake, the intake runners are at a LOWER atmospheric pressure than the crankcase, so it would be a miracle of physics if fuel could somehow leak past the intake gasket under those conditions. The common sign of intake gasket failure is sucking oil from the valley into the runners, NOT the other way around.
Well we did it this way yeaterday and hope we have no "operator error"
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