Olds64

Yes. However, after a few minutes the choke will open completely. That is what you want. The choke circuit enriches the fuel mixture for cold start up.

halfbreed

Sounds like you have serious carb.problems and a possible vacumn leak to me . also have you set the timing ? it seems off by listening to the engine run ! do you have the dist spark advance line hooked to the right port ? you need to check these items first especially the vacumn leak ! why do you have a carb spacer on it ? they are notorious for vac. leaks if not installed correctly .
the idle speed is also low it should be set at around 700 to 750 rpm with the trans in neutral .

HARDLUCK88

i had to use a carb spacer because the throttle linkage was hitting one of the intake manifold bolts... i havent been able to get a dial back timing light yet, according to the vacuum diagram i have the vac advance hooked up to the right place, but i was told when doing timing to disconnect it and plug it...

you know i kind of figured this carb spacer had something to do with it, but i did that thing where you spray starter fluid around it and if the idle changes its a leak, but suprisingly id didnt do it...

ill go take some pics for you guys of how i got the vacuum hooked up, i used the diagram for the 1977 model, because the pre 77 model diagram i found was for a 2bbl...

HARDLUCK88

this was the diagram i was told to use, but it didnt make sense to me...

0900823d800b20e5.gif

this one made a bit more sense, but i am not running a smog pump, so i deleted it from the equation. also, i am missing an EGR-TCV i have no clue where to get one and nobody knows what im talking about...

this is the diagram i used.

vacuumdiagram.jpg

this is the spacer i used.

DSC02019.jpg

DSC02018.jpg

Olds64

Take a picture of the front of your engine. Do you have the DTVS and CTVS components on your engine? These are plugs that go into the intake manifold with multiple vacuum ports on them. If you don't have all of the emissions stuff on your engine then there is no need to worry about hooking it up. Do you have emissions testing where you are at? Based on the pics you posted earlier it looks like you have an EGR valve on your inkate manifold.

The three major components that need to be hooked to vacuum are:
1)Distributor to ported vacuum
2)Brake booster to manifold vacuum
3)Transmission vacuum modulator to manifold vacuum.

Everything else is optional... unless you need to keep it on for emissions testing.

Coltonis

Well "there's your problem!"

Forget the vaccum leaks for now you need to get your choke sorted out FIRST!

Your choke is WIDE OPEN the whole time in that startup video. Which means its sucking WAY too much air while its trying to start and hence requires you to pump the gas 50 ga-jillion times before an ignitable mixture makes it into the engine.

Just in-case there is any confusion on what names are which parts, basically:



The choke should be almost completely closed when the engine is cold.(There is a slight caveat to this.)(Oh, and in this picture the choke is completely closed it needs to be cracked just a tad compared to what is shown)

The Bi-Metal spring (which is part of the electronic module on yours) should be pressing the choke closed by default. Only once the Bi-Metal spring starts to heat up will the Choke start to open (Due to less pressure from the spring keeping it closed).

Since you have the electronic version the spring is heated by an electrical heating element that runs off the 12V.

The caveat: once the Bi-metal spring is fully heated and the choke opens full there is a little cam that fall into place to prop the choke open. That cam is released by blipping the throttle once. Ie car started, got hot, choke opened, car cooled, The choke will stay open until you blip the throttle, the choke will then snap closed into proper startup position due to pressure from the (now cold) bi-metal spring.

I think.
Anyone else, if i have gotten anything wrong feel free to set me straight.

HARDLUCK88

oh my god!! thank you so much! that makes so much sense now!!! now i get it!!! im going to fix that right now! i had the choke hoked up backwards i guess you could say! the spring holds the choke open and then when the bi-metal spring gets hot from electricity it tighttens up and lets off the shoke so whne i step on the throttle it lets off the choke!!

im such an idiot!!!

HARDLUCK88

ill go take some pics right now of my vacuum setup, yes i have the ported vac switches and an egr, but thats it, plus a brand new magnaflow cat.

i dont have to go through emissions for another 2 years, then the next time i go will be my last time...

here is the emissions report from last month...

DSC02426.jpg
DSC02427.jpg


and the damndest thing just happened.

i had to move my car out of the way so my brother could get into the garage, i pumped the gas 5 or so times before i turned the car over for ha ha's and it fired right up! but i had to keep pressure on the gas while it was running obviously or it would stall because the choke isnt hooked up...

i also think a contributing factor to my problem is there is no EGR TCV so when the motor is cold egr gas is still being introduced into the vac system...

ill be back in a min with some pics for ya


thank you so much guys!

sixty9olds

I agree with Coltonis- The choke should be "closed" (about an 1/8" gap I think) on start up.

HARDLUCK88

okay, wow i feel like an idiot here...

this is all the vacuum stuff i have. it is run accordingly to the diagram i posted. the only extra vac line i have is for my vacuum operated defroster and stuff... other than that, i have the trans modualtor, and the vac advance, and the egr valve.

egr valve
P1040287.jpg

3 post tcv on the passenger side

P1040288.jpg

and 2 post tcv on the drivers side

P1040289.jpg

the top of the 2 post says "egr" on the top post so thats where the egr goes too...

the second post goes to the vac advance
and the 3rd post shares carb vac for the trans modulator

P1040290.jpg

here is how my dumb *** had the electric choke hooked up

P1040291.jpg

and this is the position it should be hooked up

P1040292.jpg

top view

P1040293.jpg

and how it should be top view

P1040294.jpg

notice how the electrical connector lines up with the degree marks and the choke is closed now.

P1040294.jpg

i dont know what these 2 vacuum ports are for, but i just noticed one of the caps i put on it must have fallen off

P1040295.jpg

sorry about the dark pics, i didnt notice they were dark untill i uploaded them...

Coltonis

LOL, I'm glad I could actually help someone for a change, usually I'm just spouting off non-sense around here

As for the mystery ports:

The top one is a port that leads right up into your air filter. When using a stove pipe setup, it provides a source of filtered fresh air that could then be sucked into the heating pipe, then into the Choke spring housing to heat the Choke spring. There is a pinhole sized suction hole inside the Choke spring housing that would clog easily if the air didn't get filtered. It is not crucial to plug that one since its not bleeding vaccum, but it does just present a small orifice to allow dust/dirt past your air filter and into your carb venturi's.

The bottom one is a straight manifold vacuum. I think it was commonly a source of vacuum for the Brake booster. If you hooked the booster straight to the manifold than anything that needs significant vacuum flow could use it.

HARDLUCK88

sweet, ill have to find a cap for the other one, yeah i plugged the brake booster straight into the intake manifold. there is another port adjacent to the one for the brake booster that i had to plug off, i was wonder ing if i could use that for an air horn that i have, it is solenoid operated, and has a reserve tank, but i was wondering if i can use the vacuum to run the horn... but that is the least of my worries, right now i need to vind the right 12 v hook up for my choke!

Olds64

The yellow wire on the wiper motor is a good source of 12V ignition for your choke. Don't use the light blue wire or your wipers will be on all the time when your key is in the run position.

FWIW, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that emissions BS. It is a big waste of time and money.

BIGJERR

Glad you got it figured out.......As you can tell Iam no good on the stock stuff........when you hotrod it some I can help more!

HARDLUCK88

ill have to look into that, i think i only have an orange wire... and i dont think thats the same... these damn cadillacs are wired all retarded!

still waiting on the dialback timing light... i have reason to believe the timing might be a hair off...

should i still do a compression test on it?

it has 7a heads.

HARDLUCK88

well shes no 1/4 mile car, but she is hot rodded a little bit

does an edelbrock performer 350 intake and a cam count? lol

the tranny has a shift kit in it to chirp second too, but it only seems to chipr when its raining lol, car must be too heavy...

Olds64

A compression test would indicate if you had worn rings, leaky valves, or a bad head gasket. I thought you just rebuilt the engine?

HARDLUCK88

yeah, the heads were rebuilt and everything too, but someone said i might have the wrong pistons for the cam i have and that i might have low compression... and that might attribute to why its performance was poor, but i think its was the carb...

i found out the white wire for my windshield wipers was ignition 12v only, so i hooked it up to the choke, with the choke hooked up, i pump the pedal twice, and it fires right up, and it takes about 5 minutes for the choke to open up... i think thats pretty well adjusted for now, because it was 80 degrees when it started, so when winter comes around ill prolly have to advance it a little bit to accomodate for a real "cold start" as it it even in the mornings it only takes about 5 minutes to reach operating temprature...

Olds64

You shouldn't have to change your timing when the weather changes. Just adjust your choke. The bimetallic spring in it will act differently in the colder weather. All it takes is loosening the three screws when the engine is cold and making sure the choke is mostly closed.

Also, if you do a compression test just make sure all of your numbers are close to one another (within about 10 to 15%). Even if you have low compression you should still have decent performance for a street car.

HARDLUCK88

thats what i meant, advance the choke. thats why it has degree marks most likely...

Warhead

It needs an accelerator pump, probably has a split in the rubber.
It is not getting ANY shot of fuel when you hit the gas.
That's what I see.
I would not even do a rebuild, just put a new shooter in the carb.
Maybe a few more degrees of advance, too.

I did not have the patience to read all of the above posts, did someone mention the accelerator pump earlier???????

Jim

HARDLUCK88

the carb has allready been rebuilt, it has only been on the motor like 4 months

hotrodpc

I didn't read the whole thread either, but I agree with Warhead, I would certainly check into that accelerator pump issue. In the video I did notice the choke was not working, seems you have addressed that issue. But to me it still sounded as if the accelerator pump is not working properly. It obvisously not totally gone, but it sounds as if could be weak. When you hit the throttle, it did not seem to respond very well, but you could hear the air moving and it needed more gas to go with it. That would also explain why you have to pump it 100 times to get it to start. My cold natured 454 in my 84 C20 truck has a quadrajunk on it too, and no choke hooked up at all. Even after sitting for several days, I can pump it 4-5 times, which I do because I know it does not have a choke, and it starts right up. Easily checked. Take your air cleaner off, get over the top of the carb and hit your throttle linkage and look and listen for a good stream of gas. I have a feeling you might find its just doing a bit of spitting some gas. Don't go overboard with it if its working, you'll flood your motor. Also to get an accurate test, my may want to start it then shut if off before you do that. This way you know for a fact you have fuel in the fuel bowl and it has not drained off, otherwise no fuel to pump, you will not see any gas even if it is good acc pump. Also you had mentioned the rotten egg smell. That can be caused by a carb lean adjustment. Lean will create a hotter exhaust and be heating up the catalyst in the converter. Just for fun and giggles, whats your cast # and letter of your block? That has certainly got to be a low compression motor. Those pistons look like a serving set of 8 Salad or Cereal bowls.

Warhead

Do NOT let that be the reason you refuse to check it.
ALL rebuilders will screw 1 up now and then, as I have also done.
SEE IF YOU HAVE A PUMP SHOT. You should have 2 nice FAT streams of fuel going down the throat of the venturis when you depress that plunger-If you do not- that IS the problem.

I do not care who rebuilt it-seems to me you have no pump shot.

JMO
JIm

hotrodpc

Yep, Ditto Warhead. Thats going to be my first best guess. It could have been installed wrong, as in pinched then it split the rubber, the spring on the bottom of the pump may have fallen off, whatever the case me be, just cuz its rebuilt does not mean its fixed. Just from your description at first, accelerator pump was my guess, then when I listened to your video, I still thought so.

Bobsw32

Great video on utube!!!!

Your choke is not working or is not hooked up....When you press the accelerator when the engine is could the choke (flap on the top or butterflies as you called it) should close......

Try this hold the choke closed while some tries to start it.....As soon as it starts you will need to let the flap open a little to get some air in,,,,, As it is now is where it should be when the engine is fully warmed up.

HARDLUCK88

okay dudes, i re adjusted the timing, and it doesnt make the popping noise from the tail pipe anymore, ill go take a vid for you guys right now so you can hear if it sounds okay

HARDLUCK88

where can i find the letter, the only numbers i have seen are behind the water pump, and the heads say 7a. the exhaust manifolds have numbers, but they are not original to the motor...

HARDLUCK88

so far, all i did was advance the timing untill the tach went up to 900 rpm or so, and then i drove it around and it drove pretty good. idk what the baseline of good would be since the motor is in a cadillac that is about 1200 lbs over its gross weight... but for what it is, it scoots around pretty good now, my dad told me this motor should chirp the tires, but i think my car is too heavy...

do you want me to take a video of it while im driving? you can hear the exhaust pretty good from inside too

HARDLUCK88

k guys, heres the vid i made, hope you enjoy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voSEIq5lNCs

hotrodpc

Those #'s behind the water pump and the #'s I am reffering to. Should be about 6 digits and another big # on a SBO.

OLD SKL 69

I think you may have a carb choke issue as well but your idle should smooth out when it is warm. Also, have you checked out your EGR valve function? Is it stuck partly open? Sometimes they get carbon build up on them and it prevents them from functioning properly. That would give you a choppy idle and a low vacuum reading but would smooth out at higher rpm's. If you are not sure, try a block off plate or another EGR valve. Hope that helps.

hotrodpc

I had also thought of the EGR being stuck open, but I'd be certain the emmision station would have checked that during the test so I assumed it would be OK. It is alot better now than it was, and safe to say the accelerator pump is OK now. As long as its starting like you need it to, and performing to your expectation and your happy with it, then all is good although with some fine tuning I think it can be a bit better. Tell dad you need a stage 2 shift kit and then it will chirp 2nd no matter how heavy it is.

HARDLUCK88

the egr valve is brand new, but it does not have a tcv, so that might attest to it being kind of choppy when its cold...

HARDLUCK88

the trans is a turbo 350 with a shift kit, but i dont want it to chirp the tires, so it worked out

HARDLUCK88

it just went through emissions with no problem. on 87 pump gas no less

HARDLUCK88

im afraid now you have confused me.

i know about the numbers on the heads, and behind the water pump, as you can see in the video, but im not sure about the other numbers and where they are located.

hotrodpc

No need to be confused by the cast # you mentioned in your video, it either a 68-70 or a 73-74 Block. Both of which have the better main caps than the 77-80 350 blocks. The 68-70 Block will also have a BIG #1 after the 395558 and the 73-74 will have a BIG #5 after the 39558. The paticular 7A heads you have are 72 350 heads with 64 cc combustion chambers. I know this for your pic it shows the 7 and the little A down low, not the 7 with a BIG A right next to it. Also your cast # on the heads as shown in the pic are 409147 which confirms the 72 350 heads where as 7A heads can also be the 307 85-90 junkier heads. You have a decent combo of block and heads. No reason to be confused at all.

HARDLUCK88

awesome!!! i always wanted to know what this motor was exactly, because when my father got the motor it was out of a 77 cutlass, which led me to believe it was a 77, but when i put the 77 head gaskets on, it pissed coolant everywhere, so i got them for a 76 and the gaskets were noticeably larger, and i found out that the pre 77 motor is way better than the post....

so knowing all of this, and seeing my pistons, do you think my compression ratio is okay?

also why is there a gap in-between the 70-73 blocks?

the number after 7395558 is a big 2

DSC01977.jpg

HARDLUCK88

also why is there a gap in time for the 72-73 blocks?