Coolant in Oil headache..need a little advice!
June 18th, 2012, 08:36 PM
#1
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Coolant in Oil headache..need a little advice!
Hey guys, this is my first post on here, thought this be a good way to get some advice from veterans in the game. I'm a newbie for the most part..learning step by step each time something goes south on the car. Here's the deal though. After a good thorough year of searching and a long childhood obsession, I finally was able to buy my first gbody. 88 Cutlass with a 69 350 rocket. The guy and his dad built it from the ground up. He's had it sitting in his garage for a few years, besides starting it up every few months, he never really drove it. He was very straightforward with the good and the bad and has still kept in contact with me for any questions i've had (not bad for a Craigslist ad, right?)
Anyway, back to the issue. I had oil dripping off the breather and ordered taller valve covers which would have been the fix. I took it for a coolant flush (bad mistake) when I first got it, and I have a feeling there might have been some head gasket sealant that got flushed out. It had been driving fine after that, until the last time I took it out, I noticed I smelled antifreeze. I got home, popped the hood, and sure enough it's no longer oil dripping off the breather, its coolant. I popped the valve covers off and sure enough, my rockers are covered.
Here's where I ask advice..I plan on changing the intake manifold and head gaskets out this week and PRAY that will be the fix..but my neighbor has been telling me it can be much more severe. Any thoughts to this? I have not drove it since the day I noticed the coolant (it's been about 2 weeks
), I started it up the other day and there's no knock in the engine or anything. Could all this coolant lead to problems down the road? I ask you vets any type of advice..I'm at a stalemate on what to do at the moment...any type of advice would be awesome, thanks a lot!
Anyway, back to the issue. I had oil dripping off the breather and ordered taller valve covers which would have been the fix. I took it for a coolant flush (bad mistake) when I first got it, and I have a feeling there might have been some head gasket sealant that got flushed out. It had been driving fine after that, until the last time I took it out, I noticed I smelled antifreeze. I got home, popped the hood, and sure enough it's no longer oil dripping off the breather, its coolant. I popped the valve covers off and sure enough, my rockers are covered.
Here's where I ask advice..I plan on changing the intake manifold and head gaskets out this week and PRAY that will be the fix..but my neighbor has been telling me it can be much more severe. Any thoughts to this? I have not drove it since the day I noticed the coolant (it's been about 2 weeks
), I started it up the other day and there's no knock in the engine or anything. Could all this coolant lead to problems down the road? I ask you vets any type of advice..I'm at a stalemate on what to do at the moment...any type of advice would be awesome, thanks a lot!
June 18th, 2012, 10:18 PM
#3
Just an Olds Guy
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Well, I gotta say that's a sad way to welcome you to the site. But, Welcome to C.O. none the less.
When you take off the head gaskets, look for signs of gasket failure or improper installation. If that's evident you may be lucky enough to get away with the head and intake gaskets.
Are BOTH rockers leaking coolant? To me that's more than coincidence - more of a bad installation on the front of the intake. BTW, getting a coolant flush is not a bad idea especially on an older car. Flushes crud out of the system to cool better - maybe causes a heater core leak which is not too bad to fix, but If it caused a coolant leak, it's better that you found it now than when you're 80 miles from nowhere on the express way doing 70mph.
You know of course that if it's just gaskets you won a get out of jail free card. But also don't forget that you're going to need to do an oil and filter change too.
When you take off the head gaskets, look for signs of gasket failure or improper installation. If that's evident you may be lucky enough to get away with the head and intake gaskets.
Are BOTH rockers leaking coolant? To me that's more than coincidence - more of a bad installation on the front of the intake. BTW, getting a coolant flush is not a bad idea especially on an older car. Flushes crud out of the system to cool better - maybe causes a heater core leak which is not too bad to fix, but If it caused a coolant leak, it's better that you found it now than when you're 80 miles from nowhere on the express way doing 70mph.
You know of course that if it's just gaskets you won a get out of jail free card. But also don't forget that you're going to need to do an oil and filter change too.
June 18th, 2012, 11:47 PM
#4
Ugh, I hate the coolant in oil thing. Reading your post it doesn't look like you drove it too far like that, so you probably did very little, if any, damage to your main bearings.
Yes on the leak down test. You can rent one of those things from AutoZone. Hopefully you're lucky and it's a simple easy fix like a IM gasket. I strongly suggest the FelPro metal set. That's what I use and I love it. You'll need an upper windage tray though to keep the oil off the manifold
Yes on the leak down test. You can rent one of those things from AutoZone. Hopefully you're lucky and it's a simple easy fix like a IM gasket. I strongly suggest the FelPro metal set. That's what I use and I love it. You'll need an upper windage tray though to keep the oil off the manifold
June 19th, 2012, 08:15 AM
#5
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With any luck, it will be head gaskets. I have seen the Fel Pros leak internally, and if the heads and/or deck were surfaced to a rough finish, it is hard for the gaskets to seal. Fix it now, as antifreeze and water are corrosive to aluminum like pistons and bearings.
June 19th, 2012, 08:20 AM
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With any luck, it will be head gaskets. I have seen the Fel Pros leak internally, and if the heads and/or deck were surfaced to a rough finish, it is hard for the gaskets to seal. Fix it now, as antifreeze and water are corrosive to aluminum like pistons and bearings.
June 20th, 2012, 07:40 PM
#7
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Sorry for the lack of response, my house was raided by the FBI yesterday (don't live with people you don't know!) and thank you for all the responses so quickly. When this heat dies off (its been a good 95+ everyday here) I'll definitely look into the leakdown test, check the heads and cylinder walls and pray that its only the gaskets. Thanks a lot for all the advice!
June 21st, 2012, 08:09 PM
#8
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I got the intake manifold off today, looks like the rubber end seals are shot. Whether that would be the cause for this, I do not know at this point. I'm not experienced enough to take off the heads by myself, I'm waiting for the neighbor to have a free day and we'll check out the head gaskets. Either way this is all great learning experience, plus a lot of the engine could use sprucing up, perfect time to clean it all up!
June 21st, 2012, 08:22 PM
#9
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Rubber end seals? Those should have gone in the trash not on the motor. A nice thick bead of black gasket sealer should be used instead of those leaky rubber end seals. I hope that was your problem. Good luck getting it back on the road.
June 21st, 2012, 08:25 PM
#10
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Well, I gotta say that's a sad way to welcome you to the site. But, Welcome to C.O. none the less.
When you take off the head gaskets, look for signs of gasket failure or improper installation. If that's evident you may be lucky enough to get away with the head and intake gaskets.
Are BOTH rockers leaking coolant? To me that's more than coincidence - more of a bad installation on the front of the intake. BTW, getting a coolant flush is not a bad idea especially on an older car. Flushes crud out of the system to cool better - maybe causes a heater core leak which is not too bad to fix, but If it caused a coolant leak, it's better that you found it now than when you're 80 miles from nowhere on the express way doing 70mph.
You know of course that if it's just gaskets you won a get out of jail free card. But also don't forget that you're going to need to do an oil and filter change too.
When you take off the head gaskets, look for signs of gasket failure or improper installation. If that's evident you may be lucky enough to get away with the head and intake gaskets.
Are BOTH rockers leaking coolant? To me that's more than coincidence - more of a bad installation on the front of the intake. BTW, getting a coolant flush is not a bad idea especially on an older car. Flushes crud out of the system to cool better - maybe causes a heater core leak which is not too bad to fix, but If it caused a coolant leak, it's better that you found it now than when you're 80 miles from nowhere on the express way doing 70mph.
You know of course that if it's just gaskets you won a get out of jail free card. But also don't forget that you're going to need to do an oil and filter change too.
Both rockers are leaking coolant, and yep the front end rubber seal on the intake manifold was shot. I still have a feeling the previous owner put head gasket sealant in there, and it was cleared from the coolant flush. Hopefully when I get a hand ill get to the heads soon.
June 21st, 2012, 10:12 PM
#11
Just an Olds Guy
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I guess it comes down to everyone has their preference on how to do this. From the sounds of it, the PO on 88cut's car didn't have a lot of experience doing gaskets. A coolant flush should not have done any of the damage that he experienced.
June 22nd, 2012, 01:58 AM
#12
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When you say BOTH rockers are leaking, do you mean BOTH SIDES (left and right head)? Is the coolant thoroughly mixed with the oil(milky looking)? If so, better get that oil and filter changed asap, as ethelene glycol eats engine bearings. Probably should change it again shortly after getting the coolant problem fixed. And run ONLY water in the cooling system, until you POSITIVELY get the leak fixed.....water won't hurt the bearings like antifreeze will.
MOST head gasket leaks I've seen don't usually get coolant up into the head itself....only in the lower end and then in the oil, which circulates up TO the head. If you SEE coolant on the rocker arms, can only come from 3 places....head gasket up thru head bolt holes, cracked head, or up thru the oil from the pushrods.
Post pics of rockers if you can.
Greg
MOST head gasket leaks I've seen don't usually get coolant up into the head itself....only in the lower end and then in the oil, which circulates up TO the head. If you SEE coolant on the rocker arms, can only come from 3 places....head gasket up thru head bolt holes, cracked head, or up thru the oil from the pushrods.
Post pics of rockers if you can.
Greg
June 23rd, 2012, 06:08 AM
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I sadly can't post pictures on here at the moment..my laptop was taken by the FBI so I have to wait for them to go through it. My phone won't let me attatch pictures on to here. But I talked to my buddies old man who's been working on 350s all his life..said it just sounds like a blown head gasket. Said if the head was cracked it'd be overheating, correct?
I'm going to drain the oil out today, run throw some cheap oil in there and let it sit in there while its not running. Maybe bother my neighbor to help me with the heads :P
I'm going to drain the oil out today, run throw some cheap oil in there and let it sit in there while its not running. Maybe bother my neighbor to help me with the heads :P
June 23rd, 2012, 07:30 AM
#14
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Your 1969 engine needs ZDDP additive in the oil for the flat tappets, more than is in regular oil these days. At a minimum, use diesel oil [it is also rated for spark ignition, hence SJ or some such rating; the CI or CJ is for compression ignition engines (diesels]. The best oil would be CI-4+ rated but not also CJ rated.
June 23rd, 2012, 07:57 AM
#15
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mght want to put in a quart of marvel mystery oil. Helps to clean out the oil passages and lube the bearings and drain at next oil change. Seemed to help when I had this happen with a V6... got another 60k out of the engine before the transmission locked up and junked the vehicle.
June 23rd, 2012, 12:52 PM
#16
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mght want to put in a quart of marvel mystery oil. Helps to clean out the oil passages and lube the bearings and drain at next oil change. Seemed to help when I had this happen with a V6... got another 60k out of the engine before the transmission locked up and junked the vehicle.
June 23rd, 2012, 02:29 PM
#17
Just an Olds Guy
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??? Why are you changing/adding oil when you don't even know if you have for damage? That's more like throwing money away. It's not going to resolve anything that's major mechanically wrong right now.
Pull the heads, check your head gaskets, have a machine shop inspect the heads for damage/cracks. When you pulled the intake, did you see coolant in the bottom of the lifter tray?
Pull the heads, check your head gaskets, have a machine shop inspect the heads for damage/cracks. When you pulled the intake, did you see coolant in the bottom of the lifter tray?
June 23rd, 2012, 03:17 PM
#18
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20 bones at the moment isn't killing me lol. My neighbor recommended to do it, if there's coolant in my oil (which there was when I drained it) it needed to get out before it started eating away more than it already is.
Unless you want to give me a step by step how to remove my heads, like I said in 3 posts or so above, I'm not experienced or confident enough to remove them by myself and waiting for my neighbor to have a free day.
There wasnt coolant in the lifter tray as far as i know, except for what I spilled. But I cleaned it all out thoroughly earlier for the mean part.
Unless you want to give me a step by step how to remove my heads, like I said in 3 posts or so above, I'm not experienced or confident enough to remove them by myself and waiting for my neighbor to have a free day.
There wasnt coolant in the lifter tray as far as i know, except for what I spilled. But I cleaned it all out thoroughly earlier for the mean part.
June 23rd, 2012, 04:04 PM
#19
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Heads are actually not hard to remove, they're just time consuming.
Disconnect battery
Remove or move to the side all electrical and/or hoses that will get in the way.
remove ground strap attached to the right cylinder head.
You will also have to remove the exhaust manifold bolts that go into the bottom of the head. The bolts there have a lock tab you have to bend back so the bolts will loosen out. If you don't undo the ex man, you'll never get the head off.
Remove the valve covers (you already did that)
Then, there are 10 head bolts - 5 in line with the spark plugs, and 5 under the valve covers between the rocker arms and at the end of the head. They are large bolts and are snugged down to 85 ft/lbs. When you remove them, note where they came from so you can reinstall them in the same hole. (Just a note for reinstall/torque - the entire bolt must be dipped in oil before installing and torquing). Once the head bolts are out, you might need to rap the head with a rubber mallet to break any seal left on the gasket. The heads are HEAVY (about 40 lbs) so be careful when you lift them. Once they are off you will be able to see the pistons and water jackets + any areas of the gasket that blew out or were not properly sealed. You will need to clean the surface of the block and head thoroughly when it comes time to install new head gaskets.
You can see the head bolts clearly in this photo. It's a 455 I tore down last year, but a 350 has the same head bolt pattern. Follow the torque and tightening pattern in the second link I'm attaching. It ensures the head gasket seats properly. Whoever did yours before might not have done this.
IMG_1499.jpg?t=1312931835
This file shows how to remove/install and torque sequence for a 69 Olds 350. Follow those instructions carefully and you're golden. Cylinder head info re: removal and detaching starts on page 6B-13 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...Section_6B.pdf
Disconnect battery
Remove or move to the side all electrical and/or hoses that will get in the way.
remove ground strap attached to the right cylinder head.
You will also have to remove the exhaust manifold bolts that go into the bottom of the head. The bolts there have a lock tab you have to bend back so the bolts will loosen out. If you don't undo the ex man, you'll never get the head off.
Remove the valve covers (you already did that)
Then, there are 10 head bolts - 5 in line with the spark plugs, and 5 under the valve covers between the rocker arms and at the end of the head. They are large bolts and are snugged down to 85 ft/lbs. When you remove them, note where they came from so you can reinstall them in the same hole. (Just a note for reinstall/torque - the entire bolt must be dipped in oil before installing and torquing). Once the head bolts are out, you might need to rap the head with a rubber mallet to break any seal left on the gasket. The heads are HEAVY (about 40 lbs) so be careful when you lift them. Once they are off you will be able to see the pistons and water jackets + any areas of the gasket that blew out or were not properly sealed. You will need to clean the surface of the block and head thoroughly when it comes time to install new head gaskets.
You can see the head bolts clearly in this photo. It's a 455 I tore down last year, but a 350 has the same head bolt pattern. Follow the torque and tightening pattern in the second link I'm attaching. It ensures the head gasket seats properly. Whoever did yours before might not have done this.
IMG_1499.jpg?t=1312931835
This file shows how to remove/install and torque sequence for a 69 Olds 350. Follow those instructions carefully and you're golden. Cylinder head info re: removal and detaching starts on page 6B-13 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...Section_6B.pdf
June 23rd, 2012, 05:15 PM
#21
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The engine was rebuilt, I don't know how long ago..the previous owner drove it mostly in his high school days (10 yrs ago) so id assume sometime back then, it has 20k on it, I don't think he really drove it after hs. The intake bolts were somewhat snug, the middle ones may have been a little less tight than the ends. Ill definitely torque everything to the specs when its all put back together though.
June 23rd, 2012, 05:18 PM
#22
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Heads are actually not hard to remove, they're just time consuming.
Disconnect battery
Remove or move to the side all electrical and/or hoses that will get in the way.
remove ground strap attached to the right cylinder head.
You will also have to remove the exhaust manifold bolts that go into the bottom of the head. The bolts there have a lock tab you have to bend back so the bolts will loosen out. If you don't undo the ex man, you'll never get the head off.
Remove the valve covers (you already did that)
Then, there are 10 head bolts - 5 in line with the spark plugs, and 5 under the valve covers between the rocker arms and at the end of the head. They are large bolts and are snugged down to 85 ft/lbs. When you remove them, note where they came from so you can reinstall them in the same hole. (Just a note for reinstall/torque - the entire bolt must be dipped in oil before installing and torquing). Once the head bolts are out, you might need to rap the head with a rubber mallet to break any seal left on the gasket. The heads are HEAVY (about 40 lbs) so be careful when you lift them. Once they are off you will be able to see the pistons and water jackets + any areas of the gasket that blew out or were not properly sealed. You will need to clean the surface of the block and head thoroughly when it comes time to install new head gaskets.
You can see the head bolts clearly in this photo. It's a 455 I tore down last year, but a 350 has the same head bolt pattern. Follow the torque and tightening pattern in the second link I'm attaching. It ensures the head gasket seats properly. Whoever did yours before might not have done this.
This file shows how to remove/install and torque sequence for a 69 Olds 350. Follow those instructions carefully and you're golden. Cylinder head info re: removal and detaching starts on page 6B-13 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...Section_6B.pdf
Disconnect battery
Remove or move to the side all electrical and/or hoses that will get in the way.
remove ground strap attached to the right cylinder head.
You will also have to remove the exhaust manifold bolts that go into the bottom of the head. The bolts there have a lock tab you have to bend back so the bolts will loosen out. If you don't undo the ex man, you'll never get the head off.
Remove the valve covers (you already did that)
Then, there are 10 head bolts - 5 in line with the spark plugs, and 5 under the valve covers between the rocker arms and at the end of the head. They are large bolts and are snugged down to 85 ft/lbs. When you remove them, note where they came from so you can reinstall them in the same hole. (Just a note for reinstall/torque - the entire bolt must be dipped in oil before installing and torquing). Once the head bolts are out, you might need to rap the head with a rubber mallet to break any seal left on the gasket. The heads are HEAVY (about 40 lbs) so be careful when you lift them. Once they are off you will be able to see the pistons and water jackets + any areas of the gasket that blew out or were not properly sealed. You will need to clean the surface of the block and head thoroughly when it comes time to install new head gaskets.
You can see the head bolts clearly in this photo. It's a 455 I tore down last year, but a 350 has the same head bolt pattern. Follow the torque and tightening pattern in the second link I'm attaching. It ensures the head gasket seats properly. Whoever did yours before might not have done this.
This file shows how to remove/install and torque sequence for a 69 Olds 350. Follow those instructions carefully and you're golden. Cylinder head info re: removal and detaching starts on page 6B-13 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...Section_6B.pdf
June 25th, 2012, 07:05 AM
#23
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So I got one head off last night and my wrech broke on the last bolt, it was getting dark so I said it could wait till today..but anyway my head gasket was blown and my cylinders are FILLED with coolant. The pistons and the bottom half of the engine looks like its okay..so I figure if I get all the coolant out there and oil it up, should it be alright?
June 25th, 2012, 07:40 AM
#24
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If you're lucky!
I'd still have the heads magnafluxed while off, just to be safe - good insurance, as the heads will overheat before the guage shows it.
Be kinda a problem if you got it all together, and then found it [they] had a crack!
And I'd change the oil and filter again after 50 miles, so the anti-freeze is gone.
I'd still have the heads magnafluxed while off, just to be safe - good insurance, as the heads will overheat before the guage shows it.
Be kinda a problem if you got it all together, and then found it [they] had a crack!
And I'd change the oil and filter again after 50 miles, so the anti-freeze is gone.
Last edited by Rickman48; June 25th, 2012 at 07:42 AM.
June 25th, 2012, 09:05 AM
#25
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Ill definitely get them checked out while they're off. I plan on changing the oil as soon as I get it all slapped back together, I drained it completely for the mean time and ran a gallon of oil through it with the drain off
June 25th, 2012, 03:51 PM
#28
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Got the other head off just now, gasket looks fine. Only a little bit of coolant in the cylinders. The other side had a blown gasket and the cylinders were full of coolant..I shop vac'ed all the junk out of them, sprayed it with cleaner and sprayed wd40 all over them..I think its enough work for one day after a Monday of actual work..time for a beer!
June 29th, 2012, 08:01 PM
#29
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If you're lucky!
I'd still have the heads magnafluxed while off, just to be safe - good insurance, as the heads will overheat before the guage shows it.
Be kinda a problem if you got it all together, and then found it [they] had a crack!
And I'd change the oil and filter again after 50 miles, so the anti-freeze is gone.
I'd still have the heads magnafluxed while off, just to be safe - good insurance, as the heads will overheat before the guage shows it.
Be kinda a problem if you got it all together, and then found it [they] had a crack!
And I'd change the oil and filter again after 50 miles, so the anti-freeze is gone.
July 5th, 2012, 05:05 PM
#30
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Once again thank you all for the help and advice, I got the heads checked out they're fine, the guy shaved them a little but that's it. I just ordered a new distributor and header gaskets..they're pretty rough, figured I might as well change them while everythings off. All I need now is a few cooler days to put it all back together..its been near 100 degrees with 80% humidity..no fun weather to be working on a car. Thanks a lot for the help!!
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