cutlassefi

Please explain what you can and cannot do for 2K, enough to handle 500hp. I'm all ears.

coppercutlass

It all adds up mark and you know it. Pistons , balance , studs , a girdle or straps.Etc. I'm not saying what you can't and can't due but from what I have seen most people opt to build a solid foundation which between parts and machining will run you over 2k. A good friend of mine runs a 10 second 71 442. His 468 has the eagle rotating assembly , bullet pistons I think , studs and straps. I think right there you are gonna be appx 1500 ish just a guess in parts. I see what you are trying to do and I would like to hear how you build a shortblock to handle power. I doubt btr will use the stock stuff as he does not like it from what he mentions in his book. My friends engine was built by a reputable olds builder. I said that statement as a general statement more or less. My swap meet built sbo ran me 2000 just the short block and I didn't do a few things others would have opted to. Just my experience.

cutlassefi

Apparently you need to brush up on your math. Try over 4k, approaching 5k to do it right, ie studs, straps etc.

coppercutlass

Like I said it will run over 2k my 1500 appx figure was apx for parts not with machining so whatever you are trying to achieve here you aren't looking very good. I never once said it will be X Amount just it will run over 2k. So what are you trying to achive or prove besides the fact you are putting words that rent in my post. I said it will run over 2k which it will. I don't know that the eagle kit costs but between it and pistons I said appx. 1500 ish probably more I didn't look into it really. My initial statement was just stating it will be more than 2k which you prove it will . So again what are you trying to prove. I never said my figures where dead nuts just reallyrough figures. I can look up exactly what it will all cost but I'm not doing the work for someone else. So I just gave a rough figure. You are trying to prove a point with out hard statements. I never gave any solid numbers nor did I claim it will un x amount. So go back to whatever it is you are going to farm out you failed miserably I intentionally didn't give solid figures because all I know is a solid 500 hp capable bottom end will run over 2k and you supported that on your last post so thank you now move along.

coppercutlass

I also never said you can do this and that with 2k just that you wil spend over 2k for a bottom end capable of 500 hp. So mr. Efi what is your point. I'm all ears.

captjim

This is just another example of how you being unclear in your posts causes problems. When you say "over 2K", the inference is that it is close to that, maybe a bit more, certainly not double. I did some Googling, and this is the only link where I came up with a price,
http://www.campbellenterprises.com/o...-kit-eagle.php
$2345 for the kit with good pistons. Fasteners, gaskets, and machine work another grand, plus assembly.

captjim

An engine is an air pump, that's all it is. Flow numbers will give you a fairly accurrate estimate for maximum horsepower. However, there is more to how a car runs than max flow numbers and max HP, and there are sooooo many variables in ET. Having said all that, if a head outflows another head by 25% across the board, with correct components, that engine is going to make a lot more power.

Oldskool84

Ok I'll give Mondello a call. Tbh I have never raced in my life so idk

coppercutlass

Again jim you 2 guys are the only ones who jump to conclusions. I feel like its dejavu .

captjim

We DON"T jump to conclusions, you make ambiguous remarks and expect us to read your mind. Be clear in your posts, say something like,
"a decent short block starts at $2000 but can run as high as $5,000 depending on the parts and machine work required".

and not, "A shortblock to handle 500 hp will run over 2k."

Mark was absolutely correct in pointing out that the short block with a stroker kit will cost a lot more than the price you stated.

coppercutlass

I just said it will run over 2k. How do you guys turn a simple statement into a $#it butter sandwhich.

coppercutlass

I'm well aware of how an engine is an air pump but as I compare the edelbrock built 350 with iron heads made 397 with the rpm package and hp tv made 380 with edelbrock aluminums and a roller cam. Apples to oranges but my guess is the aluminums still flowed better than the irons edelbrock re worked and probably had a slight diffrence in compression. Compare the 2 compare the cost not worth it unless you going all out. I guess if you got enough money to **** away run the edebrocks but from what I have seen only high hp cars truly benifit from the added benefits of the eddy heads. 400 hp is easy all day with iron heads. More than that and you are talking a whole difrent story.

captjim

Once again, you are digging the hole deeper. By that logic stating,
"a rebuild engine will cost you over $750" is an accurate statement. Technically it is, but it also is no help to anyone.

captjim

Those TV guys consistently under-perfom on Olds (and Buick and Pontiac) engines. Also, IIRC, Edelbrock stated that those heads were "heavily modified"

Again, you keep using the Edelbrock heads as an example. Mark and Smitty both do this for a living and both stated that the Pro-Comps virtually made iron heads obsolete. Run whatever you want, it's a free country and there is no right or wrong, just be fair and accurate.

coppercutlass

I'm talking about the eddy heads not procomps but again there is aded costs involved with the aluminims to be ran on an sbo. I know smitty builds great engines. I'm not questioning their expert opinions or thoughts. I'm simply expressing the fact that for most guys building sbo's irons are still a good way to go imo. Think about it you had a little high 12 sec nitrous car on what heads. How worked where they. Not too many 11 sec sbo's on the street that I see. Hell 12 sec sbo's aren't easy to come by either. It's a double edged sword .

coppercutlass

I know my simple logic doesn't help any one but doing the gues work for other people don't help either. You gotta make people learn and you don't learn anything when someone lays it out for you. You gotta do some work your self re search etc. When I built my car I had no forums just a few local olds guys that's it and I didn't regularly see them except my manager who ran a low 10 sec 442 at the time and I didn't like to bug him so I had to learn whatever I could from the mondellos book and whatever tec articles I could find. You gotta make people think in order to teach you can't teach an unactive mind nothing. I'm not trying to re invent the wheel personally . I have my twisted thoughts but I like to do it all my self. Braging rights and I don't like people touching my stuff and I have no one to blame if somethin breaks and I didn't pay anyone for nothing I couldn't do on my own or learn to. Maybe I'm one the few with the marbles to learn from failure not saying no one else has but everyone is affaird of this going wrong and that. Well you won't know unless it goes bad right ? If you have someone build an engine and you didn't learn anything and it goes bad then you don't know what went wrong and who to blame right. Its happened before many times actually to many ., Failed cams , wiped out bearings from detonations , failure from using old junk parts personally. My theory is you gotta give em enough rope to hang them selves but enough to stay on their tip toes. Someone says its gonn cost you more than 2k to build a solid bottom end your curiousity will get the best of you ad you will hit the books or atleast I hope. Maybe I have too much faith in peoples ability

captjim

I have stated numerous times that on a mild SBO, iron heads might be a better choice given the complications that aftermarket heads create. You can't compare nitrour or forced induction in this equation, those PUSH air in (N2O does it with a chemical reaction) and it completely skews things. Still, generally speaking, even with power adders the heads that flow more will make more power.

coppercutlass

Yes jim but even my previous junker 350 should have scratched 12's with mildly re works heads just bowl work and big valves but that's all water under the bridge now too late for what could have beens. But 13.3's @ 103 with a small carb and really tight converter and sub par driver ain't too shaby now.

captjim

"Should have" is the operative phrase. Bottom line, the OP asked for SBO head options; iron, Pro-Comp, E-Brock, and Rocket Racing are pretty much the 4 choices, am I missing any??

coppercutlass

Yes then the op mentioned he wa gonna have a 496 built then that opened up a whole can of worms and then he mentioned he didn't have a ton of cash then I mentioned how he was going to afford a 496 build from btr since he aint cheap to have an engine built by. Then I mentioned that a solid bottom end for a 500 hp big block will run over 2k since another member posted up a nice 355 for 3k which is a deal . Then I remember I have 2k into a shortblock that is otherwise nothing special for power levels that aren't near what he wants to achive with a bbo so using that general price figure from personal experience its safe to say a 500 hp capable 455 short block will run over 2k. Sorry I didn't feel like going into detail as using the simple line that it will run over 2k is sweet and simple and not wrong. Sorry Mr jim sorry Mr EFI . Next time I will remember that there are other members who like to read through a ton of sentences to essentially get to one simple point. Sorry I don't feel like wasting anyones time by making them read through a bunch of reasons on why when I can keep it sweet and simple. You two have established that you obviously have nothing better to do . I clearly can give 2 F**ks what you or Mr EFI think . Im sorry but again same guys same issue yet here we are again over them same stupid thing. Im sorry im not going to write it up for people. LOOK IT UP do a little work. JEEEEZUS Christ . I bet you two also try to correct how people take a ****. " Hey you didn't shake enough" You two guys must want you @$$es kissed all the time. I aint catering to you so beat it ! You have never used aluminums heads yet praise them. I atleast question them before I drink the koolaid and tell everyone to buy them. Like I said I want to see a back to back dyno runs with aluminums heads vs lightly re worked big valves sbo heads like what I had done by rrp. Same head cc's same compression same intake and carb . Until then I aint buying it as an affordable option for an sbo dollar spent vs. hp out put due to the reasons we have been talking about for the last 6 months. Sure hp tv underperforms with b.o.p builds but they had a roller cam the had aluminum heads. Edelbrock had "heavily reworked" iron heads which the edelbrocks can out perform yet they made more power with an old generic cam. Sure edlebrock could have "miffed" those numbers but not by much imo. This is just my reasoning im not questioning anyones work with the procomps but I wanna see them at work.

captjim

Once again, you are out of line, no need to curse and insult. You made a post, Mark asked you to clarify, you get mad. You make posts that are unclear and confusing, we challenge them, you get mad. If you want these issues to stop, then take your time when writing and make your points clearly. I never asked you to cater to anything or for anyone to kiss anything of mine. No one is asking you to write up anything. You post constantly then say guys should learn on their own, make their own mistakes. Isn't the point of these forum for guys to learn from others so they DON'T make mistakes and waste time and money? You want guys to take you seriously? Posts like this will not help.

coppercutlass

I can care less if anyone takes me seriously Im not here to impress just to atleast give people an option that yeah you can travel the road less traveled but do so with caution . Im sorry but im pretty sure anyone who reads what mark wrote will know how that came off as since history repeats its self . So yeah im gonna get pissed because how can you question a simple statement that's true. Yeah I post for input when I have stressed all other options. Again I have rebuilt a trans , differential with help from members on this site but I did my homework before I asked so I would have some general understanding and not ask ridiculous questions and I got great help but to get a great answer you need a little education on the subject at hand. Again you don't have to ask me jack squat ! That's for the OP to do! Not you this is not your thread.

70cutty

C'mon guys we have plenty of this in other threads. Who is right, who is wrong, who cares.
Who said what, blah blah I have enough of that from my kids at home.

Bottom line is aluminum heads are better for more reasons than one. If you can afford them go for it, if you can't then run iron. That it's it.

jag1886

I think that's what I said.

DoubleV

In the end, BTR's 496 will put out 200+ HP. Book it!

J-(Chicago)

this thread is all bark and no bite. lets not argue about how to spend the money until there is some. lol

Stevec

Thought I was R.O.P for a minute! I can always go there for some comic relief!

oldsmoboogie

If you have your mind set on a 496 then build it. Its your car build it how you want. But if your just looking for a few full throttle blasts from stop light to stop light an iron headed 461 will do just fine. These engines make a great deal of torque and thats what you will feel for short rips on the street. I have 295 50 on 10 wide wheels and at anything over half throttle im spinning tires with boxed lowers, adj uppers, and 1 1/4 in bmr rear bar. good luck!

67 Cutlass Freak

Make sure you give Bernard Mondello the call not MPP. Oldskool84 your title to this thread was asking what the best head for your 350. We've gotten a little off track, but as you can see everybody here is pretty passionate about Oldsmobiles. Nobody wants to see you spend your money in the wrong place. Mark suggested going with the Pro-Comps and milling them down for use on your 350. As was pointed out, there's a lot of other expenses when going that route, like an electric fuel pump. I'm not sure if those heads would be ideal for your future BB build after being milled down that far. You may want to talk to Bill. I don't know if I've ever seen a build come out of BTR utilizing the Pro-Comp heads. After reading all this I have thought a little more about your situation and have another idea for you. You talked about changing the cam intake and carb on your current engine. Don't do it. Save your money for the 496. Bolt on a 100 HP N2O kit. This is very cheap and easy. You probably will be happy with the stop light to stop light performance, and if you grenade your engine, at least you will have another in the works.

captjim

I'm not a big fan of nitrous on the street for a couple of reasons. One, it is ADDICTIVE! He will run through a bottle pretty quickly. Two, street tires can't handle it from a stop and it should ONLY be used at WOT.


My mild 355 ran high 13s and was plenty fun to drive. A mild 455 like boogie and others stated will be all he needs and then some.

Stevec

I almost had BTR build me a 496 but went with a 468 instead simply because I have a convertible. The 468 puts out a ton of torque! At some point you have to draw the line on a cruiser/street car.

My th400 is getting rebuilt as we speak to handle the 468 and I picked up a 10.5 10 bolt that I will rebuild with new center section,axles,c clip eliminators and everything else to withstand whats gonna be thrown its way,It already has a hotchkis rear suspension.

A 496 will find a weak link real quick! Sh$t so will a 468!

coppercutlass

My 350 and 355 have put the spank on many cars on the street . M3's camaros. Trans ams , challangers , countless turbo's 4 bangers. Half the people who buy modern muscle don't know how the drive . If I stomp on it from a 20 25 mph roll I will still light em up and spin em well into 2nd gear . My car ain't the fastest but knowing how to drive specialy a quick reaction from a green light matters lol. Good luck with whatever you end up doing.

76olds

This thread has got me all fired up to crank up some Johnny Cash's " Don't take ur gun's to town" and pound a good shot of Jack. Put-r-ther I still wouldn't be able to make a choice of heads for a 350 olds lol !!! Cheers

VinMichael

maybe with small blocks (olds vs. chev 350), but don't think it's true when it comes to big blocks (455 compared to 454).

TBH I'd swap over to a Chev 350 (motor mounts & hot terminal junction for starter) way before I took a 350 olds build seriously. Sure, build a 350 olds to mess around, but build a 350 Chev if you're trying to hit some numbers. It's a no-brainer for me.

captjim

Hmmmm. Shall I go first or would someone else prefer to? Nick??

olds 307 and 403

If anything you have it backwards. The Olds 350 can compete much better than a 455. The BBC heads flow a lot more than BBO heads. Add in diesel and NASCAR blocks for the SBO. Plus stock and mild heads flow similar, although the sbc is cheaper and straight out of a Summit catalog to build. I love the stock/mild Olds 350 or 403's torque curve. The stock low compression sbc torque curve is pathetic, especially with highway gearing.

Oldskool84

I feel u bro, but I feel like the history of olds is something to be proud of ( first TRUE muscle car) so I'm keeping my cutlass S a true olds.

380 Racer

I disagree with this no-brain statement. Check out what I've done with a SB. Sorry but I consider it impressive. Just because an engine has a Chevrolet name doesn't mean It's going to be fast. From what I'm hearing from you is that you don't know anything about building an engine. Half of the battle is figuring what will/won't work.


I raced a 380 that ran good also. One of the times I had it on a dyno, the owner/operator told me most 383 Chevies that were built close to mine.........fell way short. Try building a HP engine and see how you actually do. Like my sig line says "When The Green Light Drops.......The BS Stops!!

Smitty275

Pro comps are not clones of Edelbrock heads. On the out side they appear the same but that is because that is the shape of an Olds head. Once you get inside the runners and thier shapes and sonic map the material thickness throughout the head you find they are quite different.
That being said, the question as to what is the best head for a 350 is just to vague to even start to give an answer to.
Then somewhere the thread delves into building a 496 VS a 468 and a bunch of other things I can't exactly tie together. So pleaes refer to paragraphs 1 and 2
for answer to the OPs question.

76olds

If you ever want to start an argument or flaming discussion on CO...






1) State an opinion


2) Then wait