Bernhard

You said that you are sending the engine to the machine shop for boring and honing with a tq plate that is why I asked about the new pistons.

It's good to see that you are doing your own work

cutlassefi

Just an FYI for everyone, torque plates are not for boring AND honing. They are for honing only. They are never to be used for locating a boring bar for the boring process, ever.

coppercutlass

Good to know. Haven't really ever had an engine machine so this is a learning curve for me going from junk build to paying someone to machine it. So little stuff like that helps out.

ah64pilot

I think my record player is broken...I keep hearing the same chorus over and over, surely there has to be a new verse to this song

coppercutlass

Yeah yeah lol. This is why we need a bull$h1t section on the forum. It gets to a point like this in a thread then you can just take it there lol.

captjim

Yeah, and you already have a thread devoted to this subject, so why not go there??

cutlassefi

You say it's already .030 over correct?

If so unless it was done with a torque plate in the first place you may not be able to rehone it with one. In other words if it wasn't done with one before, chances are you won't be able to use one now. By the time you bolt it on it'll pull the cylinders approx .002 out of round, maybe more. By the time you hone that out you may end up with too much piston to wall clearance.
Have your guy run a dial bore in it the way it is now. If it's fairly round then it probably means it wasn't done with one in the first place. That means you're out of luck.

My advice to you is if this is your keeper build and you want to do it right, scrap that block, just use the insides. Then get another block and have it machined correctly.

Just my opinion.

coppercutlass

The block was scraped from the getgo it had some pitting that was too deep to hone I had a spare block and I'm using that. I'm kicking my self in the @ss right now because it turns out the previous balance was way off it would have been beter to use one of my spare cranks that neede little to no grinding. Dídnt know untill I picked my stuff up but oh well is what it is I'm still happy with how my budget is staying some what in place.

cutlassefi

As I've mentioned before, slow down. You seem to have a plan to start with but don't take the time to consider all your options when something throws you a curve as it progresses.

Just the impression I get.

cutlassefi

As usual you didn't mention it was another block and not the one that was included in the $500.00 core.

For once do you think you could put everything in one post?

I've really tried to help, but you don't learn do you.
Best of luck in this fragmented build as well.

coppercutlass

It was mentioned I'm my thread for this build. Since everyone was talking about my build I would assume people took a look and saw what I had going on. Not beimg a smart @ss but I did put that on my thread. I have been updating it as soon as I get parts back or stuff comes up.

coppercutlass

From now on if anyone has input or anything on one of my builds I have threads up post there. I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. I do take advice but when I feel someone is out to make me look bad or what I feel is an attack I will say something. We all have diffrent view, budgets, ideas, and ways of doing things. Let this thread die.

Jharken

My 355 with a ton of used parts cost me 3800 to build.
Farmed out machine work and built myself.

ah64pilot

Are you saying you saved money or you wish you had spent the extra $700 for all new parts?

Jharken

(Saved money)

Would cost more for sure.

ah64pilot

I believe the OP spent $4500 on his and he used all new parts...I think I would opt for the latter because $700 saved isn't worth the time and risk it takes to get old parts.

Jharken

I used old parts like my rpm manifold and headers and some head work that was already done the build before.

Leadfoot

I know this is an old thread, but it seems unresolved to me, so even though everybody has moved along, and while it's fresh in my head, I need to make a few observations...

CaptJim, I read through your link defining what constitutes a 'proper rebuild'. That document makes no mention of machining anything. By that definition, if you machine/regrind a crankshaft, bore cylinders, mill heads, etc., then it is not a 'rebuild' because those parts are no longer at original factory spec. To be a true and proper rebuild by that definition, the crankshaft would have to be either still at factory specs or be replaced with a new crank at exact original specs. Cylinders maybe could be bored and sleeved to the original diameter, but could not be left .030" overbored, because that is not factory spec. That definition was very clear that if any item was not at factory spec, it needs to be replaced with a new part at factory dimensions... so with all due respect (and I am very sincere about that), by your own definition, you did not do a 'rebuild', even though you did a great build. The title of the thread '355 Olds Build...' is absolutely correct. Semantics are really tricky, and a little dangerous.

Copper, I respect what you are doing wholeheartedly, but you have said a dozen times how you 'rebuilt' two engines for much less money ($2500 and $3500), and your success rate was 50%. To me that means that while CaptJim spent $4500 on a performance build with new parts, you spent $6000 and have one engine left. So you each ended up with one viable engine, but Jim spent $1500 less than you did on your budget/scrounge builds. This isn't intended to disparage your efforts at all, but realistically, it could be easily argued that some better/new parts might have left you with two good engines instead of one. In your case, I would consider that $1500 the cost of education and experience, so it was money well-spent and really, quite a good bargain. Now, please do put some of your energy into making sure your posts are more readable and clear. It will help everybody, including yourself.

MDchanic and Cutlassefi, if you guys were in Washington, Obamacare would still be something that makes sense rather than what it ended up being.

JP

coppercutlass

Actually I'm out 500 on one build because the whole top end is sitting on my current set up and I sold stuff off of it. And the other build is currently kicking alive in my dads car so I have 2 engines 1 died and I'm down 500 bucks. That was not including my current 355. I'm not down nearly what you think. So I'm down 500 between 3 engines actually which still cost me under 7k for all of them. My current 355 was a swap meet build but it had nice re usable forged pistons I had it all balanced and machined etc etc. I'm still way ahead of the ball. When I start loosing money I'll change my ways trust me. You need to do more researc before saying I'm down X amount of dollars . My first engine ran in the 2500 range complete carb and all. Then the 350 with the rrp top end they did for me ran me over 3 I think it was in the 3300 range. Then my current build the short block ran me close to 2k then add the 1600 for the top end that's 3600. I also see it as cost of learning. My current under construction build is by far the cheapest but I scored really good parts and I'm paying attention to the littles detail. I love doint this stuff so being able to do it my self and learning from my mistakes is something I'm willing to do to be self reliable . This current build will be #4 i

billmerbach

I must be doing good then ive only invested about 300 and im almost ready to put back together although im doing all work myself and not going all out on performance parts and stuff. gives me a good idea for what im looking at later on in life if there are still any shops around by then who know what the heck a carburetor and such are ahha

captjim

I disagree, by factory specs I mean cylinder taper, piston clearance, bearing clearances, crank thrust, etc. I did NOT state "ORIGINAL specs" By using the term "rebuild" it is clear the machine work is done on parts that require it (crank, block, rods) while parts that wear and are designed to be replaced (bearings, rings, pistons, cam, chain, etc) are replaced. These are not semantics, do some research on what the industry standards are for a "rebuilt" engine, not an "original" engine.

captjim

I agree with most of this; do it right, do it once. But I also understand that others guys feel differently, so there is no point in having that discussion again.

captjim

This had been suggested repeatedly over the last couple of years. It is obvious that it is not going to change.

Leadfoot

I did the research you suggested, and then some. Maybe you need to do more research yourself. Here is your link to your definition of a rebuild. Maybe you need to re-read it: http://www.timscbx.com/Adobe%20folder/eng_rebuild.pdf

But you did start out talking about a build, not a rebuild... although you later switched to talking about rebuilds. That is a matter of semantics. You're not dealing with another idiot here, CaptJim. Don't even begin to argue with or try to denigrate me over the proper use of language. You have no clue. Maybe you can get one here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics

While I am on the subject of semantics, I am sure that is part of the confusion. There are differences between a build, a rebuild, or a build-up, and they are frequently confused or ignored. Decide what it is you're talking about and then either stick with it or make it clear when you decide to change the focus.

MDchanic

Oh no.

No an argument about semantics that doesn't include me!

Please, stop now. Think of the children!

- Eric

captjim

It is quite clear that you are a troll and dredged this up for the sole purpose of arguing and not to really discuss the matter. So, (for once, LOL) I am not going to "bite".

If Mark, smitty, Zed, or any of the professional engine builders would like to chime in on what they consider the standards to be, (or if they agree, disagree, or have a comment regarding my original price list ) please feel free to do so. Otherwise, my position on the matter has been clearly stated.

pmathews

Hey Fellas, I really appreciate all the good info on this forum -> it's valuable guidance for amateur mechanics like me; however, you shouldn't need a degree in Early American Literature to post in the 'dadgum' Olds forum. Quality of content is more important than quality of syntax.

Please don't waste valuable forum space criticizing folks on grammar, and if you do, please use a private message. Sorry if I have offended anyone, but I'm trying to search for something, and the English grammar things are getting in the way (haha).

Leadfoot

I'm pretty sure I've said all I care to about it, other than thanks to captjim for the original post; it's enlightening and helpful.

I won't even address the definition of 'troll'.

For the sake of the children, I'm finished.

380 Racer

Funny......I understood everything Jim has said and agree with him. So how come I can't post smilies? My puter or this site?

captjim

Must be on your end. Nick.

captjim

I agree in principlal, no need to crtitisize every little mistake, I mis-type often. However, there are times, IMHO, when something needs to be said. Some of the younger fellas like to write in "chat" ( where r u at, go str8, etc) which really isn't appropriate in this kind of forum. Most of us point out that taking the time to write a post we can actually understand will generally result in more and better replies.

MDchanic

Actually, lack of standardized grammar, non-descriptive thread headings ("HHHHEEEEEELLLLLLLPPPPPPP!!!!!!!," anyone?) and, especially, misspellings, interfere greatly with being able to find things by searching.

- Eric

pmathews

I agree that proper spelling does help with searches, good point there (thanks). Also agree that too much non-standard English can be very distracting. My complaint is with the definition of the word 'rebuild'. Seriously (haha).

MDchanic

Thank you.

- Eric

67 Cutlass Freak

Everybody is always talking about crate motors for pretty much any other manufacturer. I called Jasper today to ask about a rebuilt 1970 W30 455 engine. They do not have any core engines. If they did have a core, it would be $1200. I specifically said that I wanted the engine to match or exceed factory output levels. I believe it was 390 HP & 500 Ft/Lb torque. They would be using Hypereutectic pistons and multi layered metal head gaskets. Their warranty is nationwide 3 years or 100,000 miles, which ever comes first. List price on the four barrel high output long block is $3272. My cost would be $2772. It would take them 3-4 weeks to build my engine using my core. I think it's great that Jim took the time to price this stuff out for everybody. I realize this thread is a few years old. There's always going to be options and upgrades, but I like how Jim kept it to a basic "rebuild", without a bunch of high performance parts. Every body has their own way of doing things also. I would not re-use forty year old head bolts. I snapped one off on the last torque step flush to the block once, with the engine in the car. Man was that thing a bitch to drill out. That's just one example of where I would spend a couple of extra bucks for the ARP head bolts. I also realize that machine shops have different rates in different parts of the country. I will try to put together a similar list with current pricing from my machine shop.

DoubleV

It's probably one of those "It's obvious YOU did something wrong so we're not responsible for anything" type warrenties.

So what corners are being cut to get the price that low and still have them make a decent profit?

captjim

We discussed this a little bit in this thread,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...350-403-a.html

Jasper gets $3700 for a STOCK 403 with core, not sure how they can do a performance 455 for that. I am sure there is no head work. Also, with the 455 there are a LOT more choices for quality upgrades in pistons and rods, not the case for a 350. I can't see a well thought out 455/468 not coming in around $6,000, but I could surely be wrong.

captjim

Is it a BUILD, REBUILD, or BUILD-UP?? LOL

I tried to keep it "middle of the road". Some think I spent more than neccessary, but I don't see where. Also, a mild cam costs the same as a hot cam, same for piston choice, so for the same cost you can have more performance. Of course, at some point you need more head work, better valve train, etc. Also, when I posted this, the Pro-Comps were not available. If I was to do a hot pump gas SBO today, I would bore 4.125 and use 400 SBC pistons and rods and mill the Pro comps. It would end up costing more (probably another grand) but would make more power with better and lighter internal parts.