355 Olds build cost and parts list
July 30th, 2012, 12:06 AM
#82
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 318
Just to add to the discussion on engine build costs here’s my 2 cents worth.
O.K. guys engine build so far for a 69 400 ci BBO.
Roller cam and lifters $725
Roller rockers $ 275
Valley tray $66
Cam thrust button kit $56
Rods $50 Bargain!
Pistons still to get from cutlassefi $500
Performer intake, (divider cut), full gasket set, and a 3 keyway timing chain and gear setup $ 525
Oversize stock looking exhaust manifold 2.5”ceramic coated $558
Engine paint $34
Total so far $2789
Still need Pushrods, springs, etc, so still more parts to come and also engine work by the machine shop approx. $4500(pull down, acid wash, blue print, machine work, porting cast heads, etc). If you want to do it right and you want it done professionally then it cost. My motto is do it right the first time.
O.K. guys engine build so far for a 69 400 ci BBO.
Roller cam and lifters $725
Roller rockers $ 275
Valley tray $66
Cam thrust button kit $56
Rods $50 Bargain!
Pistons still to get from cutlassefi $500
Performer intake, (divider cut), full gasket set, and a 3 keyway timing chain and gear setup $ 525
Oversize stock looking exhaust manifold 2.5”ceramic coated $558
Engine paint $34
Total so far $2789
Still need Pushrods, springs, etc, so still more parts to come and also engine work by the machine shop approx. $4500(pull down, acid wash, blue print, machine work, porting cast heads, etc). If you want to do it right and you want it done professionally then it cost. My motto is do it right the first time.
July 30th, 2012, 10:01 AM
#83
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 558
Head / manifold / carb design affects efficiency by providing resistance to the induction and expulsion of gasses.
This does two things:
One, an engine pulling or pushing gasses against restrictions uses energy in order to pull in or push out the gasses. Energy that is used to move the gasses through the engine is lost and cannot be used to turn the crank. While the piston traveling down on its power stroke is providing energy to the system, the other ones that are not on their power strokes are at best dead weight, and at worst are resisting movement (and absorbing energy) through their actions as they pull in or push out gasses. This situation creates more and more resistance (and losses) an the engine turns faster (and makes more power).
This sort of inefficiency actually burns more fuel (uses up energy), and so can introduce an inaccuracy into the fuel consumption vs horsepower comparison.
Two, an engine pulling or pushing gasses against resistance (but especially pulling) reaches a "terminal point" where no matter how hard it sucks, it can get no more gas through a given restriction (sort of a cavitation scenario - instead of pulling more gas, the suction just creates a vacuum, without any more gas being brought in), so the engine can put out no more power, even if it turns faster. The effect is similar to valve float: it reaches a certain output (or speed) and can go no higher.
This sort of inefficiency burns no more fuel, as no more fuel is being brought in, and so fits within the fuel consumption vs horsepower comparison.
Depending on design, an engine may or may not, under the right conditions, be able to conform with one or both of the above scenarios, but this is how head and tract design can affect efficiency.
As far as the cam, "old-style" non-variable camshafts achieve maximum efficiency only within a narrow RPM and throttle band, where the speed of the moving column of gasses in the intake and exhaust tracts matches the demand of the cylinder. Under all other conditions, efficiency is reduced, as is MPG. As with most things in life, this is most clearly illustrated with an extreme example, which is the "full-race" lumpy-idle camshaft, which doesn't even close the valves until the piston is halfway along the cylinder, and which causes exhaust gasses to be pushed into the intake, and unburned mixture to be pushed out into the exhaust pipes at idle, though it creates a "perfect storm" of flow in and out at, let's say, 6,000 RPM. A cam like this under less-than-race condition (ie: partial throttle, midrange RPMs) will be a pig, blowing unburned gas out the pipes and wasting a phenomenal amount of potential power.
- Eric
This does two things:
One, an engine pulling or pushing gasses against restrictions uses energy in order to pull in or push out the gasses. Energy that is used to move the gasses through the engine is lost and cannot be used to turn the crank. While the piston traveling down on its power stroke is providing energy to the system, the other ones that are not on their power strokes are at best dead weight, and at worst are resisting movement (and absorbing energy) through their actions as they pull in or push out gasses. This situation creates more and more resistance (and losses) an the engine turns faster (and makes more power).
This sort of inefficiency actually burns more fuel (uses up energy), and so can introduce an inaccuracy into the fuel consumption vs horsepower comparison.
Two, an engine pulling or pushing gasses against resistance (but especially pulling) reaches a "terminal point" where no matter how hard it sucks, it can get no more gas through a given restriction (sort of a cavitation scenario - instead of pulling more gas, the suction just creates a vacuum, without any more gas being brought in), so the engine can put out no more power, even if it turns faster. The effect is similar to valve float: it reaches a certain output (or speed) and can go no higher.
This sort of inefficiency burns no more fuel, as no more fuel is being brought in, and so fits within the fuel consumption vs horsepower comparison.
Depending on design, an engine may or may not, under the right conditions, be able to conform with one or both of the above scenarios, but this is how head and tract design can affect efficiency.
As far as the cam, "old-style" non-variable camshafts achieve maximum efficiency only within a narrow RPM and throttle band, where the speed of the moving column of gasses in the intake and exhaust tracts matches the demand of the cylinder. Under all other conditions, efficiency is reduced, as is MPG. As with most things in life, this is most clearly illustrated with an extreme example, which is the "full-race" lumpy-idle camshaft, which doesn't even close the valves until the piston is halfway along the cylinder, and which causes exhaust gasses to be pushed into the intake, and unburned mixture to be pushed out into the exhaust pipes at idle, though it creates a "perfect storm" of flow in and out at, let's say, 6,000 RPM. A cam like this under less-than-race condition (ie: partial throttle, midrange RPMs) will be a pig, blowing unburned gas out the pipes and wasting a phenomenal amount of potential power.
- Eric
July 30th, 2012, 10:05 AM
#84
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
You constantly brag on your 13.8 car (my 9 to 1 355 ran 13.9 with less gear and 300 more pounds, but I don't spout it in every post). If you bought a used 455, changed the cam and intake and dropped it in a G-body and ran 13.2, does that make it "rebuilt"? Nope.
Even with a re-ring and the money saved on boring and pistons, ($500 +/-) you would be hard pressed to do it for $2500 using NEW parts. You can skip the cam bearings and align hone and "hope" it turns out OK. But that is NOT a rebuilt engine. The head work alone should cost at least $600 (unless of course you skip guides, don't resurface, etc).
July 30th, 2012, 10:09 AM
#85
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
Didn't you have one of these "slap-together engines that failed pretty quickly?
July 30th, 2012, 10:22 AM
#86
Yep the low 13' second combo. I pushed the limits of the budget vs. Power and stress on old parts. Also you mean to tell me if you re ring and engine. Hone the cylinders, polish the crank and making sure the piston skirts are in good re usable shape it's not correct ? To me it seems if every thing is in spec and re built as in taken apart and everything that has considerable amount of wear replaced is replaced bearings rings etc. If pistons are re usable and you re use them is's not correct? I mean where do you really draw the line between rebuild and freshen up ? One budget build lives one died but ran a year and I put 45 runs on it and roughly 5k miles in one summer. Imo I got my moneys worth and did a lot better than others so I'm happy even though it gave up. I might add it ran a 13.3 with a small carb 600 cfm and a tight converter so it had more potential in it but money limits me to what i can do . Like i said i have had success and failure budgets havwe their limits i admit it . Really dont know what you are trying to prove. you asked me to brake down the 2500 dollar build i did. It still runs and ran 13.8's when the car was all steel. Ran 13.71 when i did glass fenders and hood. I gave you the prices even posted a video of it running and racing. I think you are just bitter i broke it all down and the numbers where correct even less but we can call it 2500 with all the stuff that nickle and dimes you. If that engine was not done right it would have died a long time ago. Like i said not everyone can build stuff down to a tee but even when you re ring and engine you still hone it and send the crank out to get polished and make sure the pistons are in good shape.
Last edited by coppercutlass; July 30th, 2012 at 10:45 AM.
July 30th, 2012, 10:57 AM
#88
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
So, just to clarify, you have built 2 SBO 350s, one ran 13.3 and failed quickly and one ran 13.7 and runs very good, right? So that puts the success rate using your "budget engine building methods" at 50%. Do you think that is acceptable?
The problem with the re-ring is not the pistons, it is the bore. A dingleberry hone job will not true up the cylinders and a proper hone in a cabinet will, but by the time you get a good finish the piston/wall clearance is excessive. Yes, you might find a block that will clean up, but IMO the percentage will be low.
New pistons and bore is around $500. I think your "budget" also skimps significantly on the heads. IIRC, you stated $300 for a "clean up" of the heads. Not sure what that means.
As to the pistons, IMO they wear at the ring lands more than the skirts, they can be cleaned up.
You still have not made a detailed list of prices and parts. Deduct the $500 for pistons and there is still a $1000 difference in my budget.
The problem with the re-ring is not the pistons, it is the bore. A dingleberry hone job will not true up the cylinders and a proper hone in a cabinet will, but by the time you get a good finish the piston/wall clearance is excessive. Yes, you might find a block that will clean up, but IMO the percentage will be low.
New pistons and bore is around $500. I think your "budget" also skimps significantly on the heads. IIRC, you stated $300 for a "clean up" of the heads. Not sure what that means.
As to the pistons, IMO they wear at the ring lands more than the skirts, they can be cleaned up.
You still have not made a detailed list of prices and parts. Deduct the $500 for pistons and there is still a $1000 difference in my budget.
July 30th, 2012, 10:58 AM
#89
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
DING!
Back to your corners!
This has degenerated into an argument over semantics.
Nobody is actually arguing about the build or the performance anymore - only about what to call it.
I think you've all made valid points, but are not going to settle the question of what one word best describes it without bloodshed, so maybe it's time for all of you proven-competent engine builders to agree to disagree about this one word and get back to fixing your cars
.
... Or not.
DING DING!
- Eric
Back to your corners!
This has degenerated into an argument over semantics.
Nobody is actually arguing about the build or the performance anymore - only about what to call it.
I think you've all made valid points, but are not going to settle the question of what one word best describes it without bloodshed, so maybe it's time for all of you proven-competent engine builders to agree to disagree about this one word and get back to fixing your cars
.... Or not.
DING DING!
- Eric
July 30th, 2012, 11:04 AM
#90
by detailed what do you mean. i picked up the short block already built i sent my heads out and freshened them up and ran a used intake etc. 50% sucess vs. failuer is better than an engine that died on the dyno or within 300 miles. Youi gotta understand i beat the crap out of my stuff constantly abusing it on the street more than at the track. The heads where done by rocket racing and he just said they are in great shape for what you need he sadi just a clean up new seals,knurle guides, milling the heads, it cost 380. I find deals out there and take advantage of that. Anyone else can do that. My trans was built by john at rocket racing i picked that up for 750 a customer never picked it up i got a bullet proof trans, My rear end was rebuilt by a local at a more than fair price 250 for labor plus parts. I find deals and take advantage of em. Sometimes you gotta fail to learn im willing to learn at my own expense. I learned the limits of a budget build. I might add the big diffrence between the high 13 sec and low 13 sec engine is the high 13 sec engine was shifted at 5k rpm the low 13 sec combo was shifted at 6k rpm. im pretty sure i over revved it too. There are some marks on the crank where the piston skirt nailed it there is too many variables to really diagnose why that engine died but im pretty sure stone stock 40 year old parts being pushed hard had alot to do with it i admit that but i had fun and learned what works and what does not.
Last edited by coppercutlass; July 30th, 2012 at 11:10 AM.
July 30th, 2012, 11:13 AM
#91
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
That is all fine, but like Mark stated when you tell someone they can rebuild their engine for $2500, tell them everything else. Tell them they have to hunt for deals on used parts and that they have a 50/50 chance of the engine failing. I beat on my stuff, I sprayed my cast piston engine and ran 12.7. If you build it right, it will last. If you don't, it might not.
July 30th, 2012, 11:31 AM
#92
Everyone told me if it fails don't get mad. I didn't., everyone was surprised how well it did and how long it lasted. I guess I'll just note that a 50/50 chance of sucess and failure is about right. I will say this the high 13 second combo had much better parts than the low 13 second combo as far as the shortblock goes. From the get go I didn't expect it to last a whole year I knew what to expect.
July 30th, 2012, 11:35 AM
#93
Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Poteau, Ok
Posts: 40,795
I read 2 pages of this argument. I agree with Captjim, and others, that one cannot build an olds small block properly <<<key word here, for $2500.
I also agree with Copper, that one can do what he did for the price, however I do not clasify buying a shortblock from a volume generic job shop with an RV cam, refreshing the heads, and then calling it a rebuild. Thats basically one step over doing rings and inserts, new timing set, oil pump, slipping in a generic cam, and resealing.
We are not talking about the same standards. Thats like me saying that my daily driver is a show car. No, it's a nice old car that goes to shows.
I believe by the time you add all the incidentals, carb, fuel pump and lines, balancer, distributor, plugs and wires, oil, filter, mounts, etc... It will be more like $2000++ dollars more.
I also agree with Copper, that one can do what he did for the price, however I do not clasify buying a shortblock from a volume generic job shop with an RV cam, refreshing the heads, and then calling it a rebuild. Thats basically one step over doing rings and inserts, new timing set, oil pump, slipping in a generic cam, and resealing.
We are not talking about the same standards. Thats like me saying that my daily driver is a show car. No, it's a nice old car that goes to shows.
I believe by the time you add all the incidentals, carb, fuel pump and lines, balancer, distributor, plugs and wires, oil, filter, mounts, etc... It will be more like $2000++ dollars more.
Last edited by oldcutlass; July 30th, 2012 at 11:42 AM.
July 30th, 2012, 11:41 AM
#94
It was actually built by a local olds racer. I don't mention names but it was not built by a generic shop. I might also add the not even properly built engine are gauranteed success parts can fail, A lifter coul fail, cam, rings, bearings even with quality parts. It's the nature of the beats. Proper is a term that you really can't tie to a specific style or building or doing etc. Because I bet if you talk to 10 machinist they all have diffrent Ideas and processes for doing things.
Last edited by coppercutlass; July 30th, 2012 at 11:43 AM.
July 30th, 2012, 11:47 AM
#95
@ oldcutlass I listed all that stuff. Carb hei headers etc. We all have diffrent ways of doing things plain and simple. I'm not saying jim is wrong and I admit to some I'm not doing it right. But proper jobs fail and " improper" jobs fail too. It all comes down to who built it and what you expect.
July 30th, 2012, 11:47 AM
#96
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,703
Is this argument dead yet? It should be. It's like burying the horse and then digging it back up just to put in a few more licks. I mean, there's no headway here and I seriously doubt that there ever will be.
P.S. My $1500 455 back in high school went 13.001 on street tires
And it lived for 3 hard years...but that doesn't mean I did it right, why else would I have spent $11,000 on the next one? You learn as you go, and you too Copper will build them better and better as your experience and budget grows.
Now, can we all go have a beer?
P.S. My $1500 455 back in high school went 13.001 on street tires
And it lived for 3 hard years...but that doesn't mean I did it right, why else would I have spent $11,000 on the next one? You learn as you go, and you too Copper will build them better and better as your experience and budget grows.Now, can we all go have a beer?
July 30th, 2012, 11:52 AM
#97
Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Poteau, Ok
Posts: 40,795
Ok, let me rephrase to a proper performance build! Just becauseI got my car painted as a favor for $1500, and I also had my interior done semi custom for $1800, from carpet to headliner all door panels and seat covers as a favor, I can't tell someone thats what it will cost them. Because it's not the standard!
Also, there is no assembly labor included in either of your 2 scenarios for the mechanically disabled. What does it cost to dyno them, to show what you've actually accomplished.
Also, there is no assembly labor included in either of your 2 scenarios for the mechanically disabled. What does it cost to dyno them, to show what you've actually accomplished.
July 30th, 2012, 12:23 PM
#98
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
At the shop I worked at we charged $750 to assemble and that included blueprinting specs. For a guy looking for a 325 HP 355 Olds assembled and broken in/dyno'd, IMO you are looking at around $5500. Perhaps Mark will chime in and share his thoughts.
July 30th, 2012, 04:06 PM
#99
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,703
If you dyno it add between $650 and $800 depending on the shop. Faerman's Racing engines was $650 last year and Nickens Racing engines is $800. Again, the quality of the dyno and the amount of work you put into your dyno session will sort of determine how much you pay.
I paid $650 at Faerman's but had to mount the engine myself and do all of the work on it. Other than DaVinci tuning the carb and Dennis running the dyno I worked my *** off that day.
I paid $650 at Faerman's but had to mount the engine myself and do all of the work on it. Other than DaVinci tuning the carb and Dennis running the dyno I worked my *** off that day.
July 30th, 2012, 04:10 PM
#100
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,130
X2, that's what my builder charges plus $300 to the dyno guy. The engine builder comes along and makes sure everything is OK.
July 30th, 2012, 04:29 PM
#102
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,250
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ker-build.html
Mark can build a 380 stroker for around $6000 with a flat cam plus carb and ignition.
July 30th, 2012, 06:07 PM
#103
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,892
Not quite that much, IMO, but maybe a builder will add some input. If you look at this thread,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ker-build.html
Mark can build a 380 stroker for around $6000 with a flat cam plus carb and ignition.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ker-build.html
Mark can build a 380 stroker for around $6000 with a flat cam plus carb and ignition.
Steve I'm not sure you should compare your $1500.00 big block from high school to today, have you ever heard of the word "inflation"?
July 30th, 2012, 06:46 PM
#105
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,892
July 30th, 2012, 10:56 PM
#106
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,703
FINALLY! Someone bit on that! Geez...I thought I'd never get a reaction! lol! I know, I'm only 32 but still, gas was $0.98 / gallon when I had that car. Now it's what, $3.67?
And Copper...I built that engine on a high schooler's budget. I was 17 when I built it. Once you're a workin' man and you got a job...there's no excuse, especially if you have another car to drive.
You know, another thing to consider is your time. If you build an engine on the cheap, and then have to replace it or rebuild it within a year and you are doing the work yourself...have you ever thought how much time you invested? If you build it right the first time, it may cost you twice as much, but you save yourself the double work you would have to do if it broke. IDK...why are we still beating the horse anyway?
And Copper...I built that engine on a high schooler's budget. I was 17 when I built it. Once you're a workin' man and you got a job...there's no excuse, especially if you have another car to drive.
You know, another thing to consider is your time. If you build an engine on the cheap, and then have to replace it or rebuild it within a year and you are doing the work yourself...have you ever thought how much time you invested? If you build it right the first time, it may cost you twice as much, but you save yourself the double work you would have to do if it broke. IDK...why are we still beating the horse anyway?
July 31st, 2012, 03:45 AM
#107
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
July 31st, 2012, 05:44 AM
#108
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,892
July 31st, 2012, 07:55 AM
#109
Hey I love working on my car. I enjoyed doing the body work more than anything. Now with a house I can't buy another project car so I get to work on other stuff. I'm building my new engine soon in a few weeks. Then suspension over the winter.
July 31st, 2012, 09:42 AM
#110
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,703
I don't normally count the first time because it's a new job, but going back through a second time cuz I was a D/A is past the point of therapy lol!
July 31st, 2012, 01:09 PM
#111
I just like working on cars. Wether its doing a side job or helping a friend with a side job or re doing stuff on my car just because I'm bored. I just love working on cars. I did it for 7 years started when I was 16 . I now get to have my tool box at home so working on stuff is even easier. Any excuse to be in the garage i'll use it.
August 1st, 2012, 10:35 AM
#112
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 2,826
Not to be negative about your build but you have not been able to control the direction of your build. Like having a TQ plate for boring and honing as well as the engine mounts and opposite head on during this stage. Its all the little things that you do to a performance build that add up and make the differance. For what you have into it at this piont you could have bought pistons and rings and could have asked for a specific cylinder wall finish and clearances. You also could have picked your machine shop. Right know you are tied to the original build and making repairs to a failed build.
To the back yard engine builder I think it is smart to start with a engine that was running and looked after, a solid core to start your build. I think it is also best if it is standard bore and crank.
To the back yard engine builder I think it is smart to start with a engine that was running and looked after, a solid core to start your build. I think it is also best if it is standard bore and crank.
Last edited by Bernhard; August 1st, 2012 at 11:02 PM.
August 1st, 2012, 10:41 AM
#113
If that was directed towards me my current build is undergoing all the proper steps. I built my junk build 350 knowing well that it would not last long. I invested all my money on the heads and valve train since i had a tight budget all that carries over to my next build. Im actually re rebuiilding someone's failed build i picked up at a swap meet for 500 dolllars. was .030 already just got the rotating assy. back sending out the block next and it is getting torque plate for boring and honing.
Last edited by coppercutlass; August 1st, 2012 at 10:48 AM.
August 1st, 2012, 03:49 PM
#117
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 2,826
If that was directed towards me my current build is undergoing all the proper steps. I built my junk build 350 knowing well that it would not last long. I invested all my money on the heads and valve train since i had a tight budget all that carries over to my next build. Im actually re rebuiilding someone's failed build i picked up at a swap meet for 500 dolllars. was .030 already just got the rotating assy. back sending out the block next and it is getting torque plate for boring and honing.
August 1st, 2012, 03:53 PM
#118
No they are in good shape machine shop checked em. My whole rotating assembly is good to go. They are .030 forged speed pro's. The engine didn't run very long if you followed that post it wiped a lobe out. I'm pretty sure I also mentioned the pistons being good.
August 1st, 2012, 03:54 PM
#119
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 2,826
August 1st, 2012, 03:56 PM
#120
Should be a lot better than my last one and should live a lot longer. I'm measuring everything. I have all the mic's and gage's at my disposal. I'm pretty sure if I put together a junk engine that lasted a year under constatnt abuse this one with machining, balancing and boring and honing work should definetly live a lot longer than an engine that had zero machining.
Last edited by coppercutlass; August 1st, 2012 at 03:59 PM.
