oldsman72

Cooling in my car is a mess. Just got a couple of bucks and I'd like to spend it wisely. Looking for advice. (This is also an exercise for me to write out all that's rattling around in my head about this subject).

Here's where I am:
Rebuilt '72 Olds 350, compression bumped to around 11.5. Current cooling inadequate with 3-core copper radiator, no shroud and non-clutch fan. Currently have thermostat removed. Alternator is mounted on driver's side, which is wrong.

What I already have (all not installed):
- 4-core copper radiator
- fan shroud (NOTE: installing will be tricky because I put an a/c engine into a former non-a/c car. Pulleys don't match up, fan hits shroud)
- dual electric fans with shroud out of a newer vehicle. I was told they worked when removed and are correct width for my car.
- gauge cluster with temp/oil/volts

Now what?
- obviously, the gauges must go in pronto!
- thermostat needs to go back in (160 or 180?)
- in order to install shroud, I'll have to change my power steering pump to a non-a/c unit. May have to change water pump too(?)

Options:
1. Swap power steering (and water?) pump(s), install shroud and see what happens.
2. #1 + install 4-core radiator (need new top plate, brackets, etc...)
3. Install 4-core radiator and electric fans. Remove fan and no need for shroud.
4. Go away from copper, get aluminum radiator & install electric fans.

Thoughts?

joe_padavano

1) The fan shroud is the same for A/C and non-A/C
2) The power steering pump and brackets are the same for A/C and non-A/C.
3) If the PS pump doesn't line up, you have not correctly installed the spacers between the pump brackets and the block.
4) The A/C water pump is longer than the non-A/C pump. If you decide to change to a non-A/C alternator bracket, you need to change the water pump and pulleys to match.
5) The A/C pump is also the HD cooling pump and was used on non-A/C cars with HD cooling.
6) Get a proper clutch fan
7) Sell the electric fans.
8) Use the four row radiator, but you will need to change the saddles on the core support and the top plate for the wider tanks. Repros of these brackets and the rubber isolators are available.
9) Be sure you have correctly set the carb for your engine and today's gasoline. Ethanol in gas causes the engine to run lean, causing overheating. Also be sure your vacuum advance is working properly. If you are using ported vaccum - DON'T. Use straight manifold vacuum for the advance.

ROCKETMAN269V

How did you determine that your cr is ~11.5:1? If it is what are you using for gas? Where is your timing at?
What kind of "non-clutch" fan? How close to the radiator?
Thermostat removed- not good. I see that you plan on installing one. 160.
Engines are not "a/c & non-a/c"; the differences are in the brackets and pulleys.
Fan may be hitting the shroud due to several issues; weak engine mounts, collapsed front crossmember, etc. P/s brackets and pumps are pretty much the same between a/c & non-a/c.

oldsman72

Thank you for the reply/advice, Joe. I didn't swap the engines but it was functioning when I got it. It looks like the person that did used the correct, 3-piece, non a/c alternator brackets on the driver's side. Power steering pump is mounted over the alternator bracket and alternator is uncomfortably close to upper radiator hose.
I'd like to move alternator correctly to pass side. Sounds like in order to do that, I'll need to change water pump. I'll likely go aftermarket with that, assuming I can locatecorrect

joe_padavano

OK, I'm confused. What year car and brackets are we talking about here? There are no non-A/C alternator brackets that mount on the driver's side. And what does "steering pump mounted OVER the alternator bracket" mean? Is the PS pump somehow above the alternator, or are you saying that the PS pump bracket is in front of the alternator bracket? Photos would really help figure out what is going on here.

oldsman72

My apologies. I actually hit "submit" accidentally before I was finished. Alternator bracket is mounted to block on driver's side, PS pump mounted to bracket.
I will get a picture or 2 going with a more coherent reply later.

MDchanic

If you don't have any gauges installed, how do you know that the cooling is inadequate?

- Eric

oldsman72

Overheated once, had 2 other times that pressure lifted the cap and coolant leaked out after sitting idle for less than 5 minutes.

oldsman72

Thanks for the reply, Rocketman. Builder stated expected CR. I'm no mechanic but I'm trying to learn as much as I can here. Pump gas at 92/93 doesn't quite cut it (rattling) so I need to add either some octane boost from a bottle or get a little 100+ from the racetrack.

Lesson learned....don't have an engine built right around the time your wife is expecting. You'll lose paperwork, you won't be paying attention and the car will sit for long periods of time right after engine is done. So, when you finally get to REALLY look at it and run it, build could be several years old. If builder doesn't keep great records, you are S-O-L.

oldcutlass

The radiator could have puked because it was over filled and lacking proper head space. Water expands when heated and if the radiator was over filled it will muscle its way past the cap.

Gary M

You probably already know (but since you said your not a mechanic) that rattling (pinging) will distroy your Pistons. You may want to keep a bottle of octane boost on you at all times when driving it.

oldsman72

That's a good point but when I had my overheat (drove car about 10mins/3 miles then had it idling in front of my house for maybe another 3-4mins), steam everywhere. I thought I blew a hose but then realized, once the steam cleared, that it was the overflow tube spraying 1st coolant, then steam for a few minutes.


Roger that, er, Gary!
That was a little tidbit I learned after we were doing that for longer than I'd care to admit on a car site. Learning backwards is not the preferred method but it's what I do, again, more times than I'd like to admit.

Gary M

Yours is overheating pretty quick. I would put in the thermostat first since that's easiest. The fan clutch, proper size fan blades and shroud need to go in too. If the fan was hitting the shroud at the top ( like mine did once) you may be able to grab the top of the radiator cover back near the motor ( with engine off) and pull up just a bit. If someone leaned over on it to work under hood it may have bent down just a tad.

Gary M

Hope this helps

Gary M

Like Joe said,
" 4) The A/C water pump is longer than the non-A/C pump. If you decide to change to a non-A/C alternator bracket, you need to change the water pump and pulleys to match.
5) The A/C pump is also the HD cooling pump and was used on non-A/C cars with HD cooling. "

Just to be sure, measure your lower hose opening on the radiator you got. make sure the water pump you buy has the lower hose same size as radiator. You can do a search on this site about the radiator/pump outlet sizes and water pump lengths (from block mounting surface to end of pump) so you buy the right stuff.

Gary M

NOTE: The page above with the fan clutch is for A/C car part numbers

Gary M

Brackets for pass side alt
Lower left corner of the picture shows fan/shroud clearance and how far the fan should protrude out.

Fun71

That's what I was thinking. I was also thinking maybe the head gasket is leaking?

Gary M

Check the compression on the cylinders.

oldsman72

Thank you very much for the diagrams and advice Gary. It will be a huge help as I'm starting to get a better idea what I need to do going forward here. I appreciate your help.

rustyroger

The only thing I can add to a lot of expert advice,(I'm not sucking up, these guys are as good as it gets), is high compression ratios don't go well with modern pump gas, possibly fitting thicker head gaskets might be a solution if detonation is a chronic problem. The only other ways to reduce cr are to change the pistons and/or heads.
Of course you have just had the engine assembled, I bet you don't want to pull it apart again. But it may be a long term solution, put on hold until your new born allows you some play time.

Roger.

oldsman72

Thanks Roger! I agree completely. I knew where to turn for awesome help regarding my cooling issue. The knowledge on this site is 1st rate!

The engine giving me headaches is from a '72 Cutlass Supreme I had for 20 yrs. Instead of parting with it and starting over at another time, like a normal human being, I decided to have the engine rebuilt when it was finally leaking everything. That coincided with the birth of my youngest son in '07. Builder was asking me questions and I used the little knowledge I had to go "bigger and better!!". That's proving to be a large error....Hindsight is 20/20 they say. I don't really have any specs on engine and the stressed-cooling oversight is only really being addressed as of this thread.....10 years later!

I'm trying to survive with this engine for now. I do have a 455 that will inevitably power my '70 442, but I want to be darn-sure I get that 1 right. If I can just keep this engine alive for a few years to enjoy, that's my goal.
Cheers!

olds 307 and 403

You need a big cam and high stall with that high compression. A set of #8 heads with a big intake valve and the bowls opened, especially on the exhaust side, might be your ticket. They would flow similar and drop your compression one full point, having 10cc larger chambers.

Fun71

Now there's a good idea. Wait, did I just say that about #8 heads?

Gary M

Is there any gas stations near you that sell higher octane fuel? I got a 66 station near me that sells it. Was 7.00 per gallon last time I got some. If your tank is low, get some high octane but if it's not low the octane number will average lower in the tank because of the existing low octane in the tank. If you have all high octane in it and it still overheats then you still haven't found your problem and rebuilding may not solve it.

oldsman72

Thank you all again for your input. It is greatly appreciated. Using advice, my plan going forward is this:


1. install 160 thermostat
2. install gauges
3. order non-a/c water pump
4. order fan clutch for my stock, 6-blade fan


Additional questions:
- Do you think that someone with some mechanical aptitude, limited experience, basic hand tools, a 3-ton floor jack and stands should attempt to change the water pump in his 1-car driveway, usually occupied by wife's car?
- I have the 2-groove crank pulley. Swapping the 3-groove part is just a few bolts, yes?
- I've heard mention of "spacers" between the power steering pump and the block, to help pulleys line-up. That sound about right?

rustyroger

I think an A/C water pump is what you need, it is a heavy duty pump which will help shifting the extra heat from your high compression engine.
You must install the shroud, if it is the correct shroud and the fan hits it you need to find out why and rectify whatever it is. My guess would be a bad engine mount.
None of the above is beyond someone with a decent basic (af) tool kit and some common sense. And if you are unsure of anything you know where to ask!.

Roger.

oldsman72

Thanks Roger. I think I will give it a shot. After all, it is 1 of the main reasons I have the car....to tinker and learn, not just keep paying someone to do it for me.

More questions:
1. Any great value to an aluminum water pump over iron? Yes, I know it's lighter and aluminum has greater heat dissipation ability but what about strength/durability?

2. Some have said to get the "heavy duty" a/c water pump. I already have 1 of those since my engine came from an a/c car. So, as far as I can figure, I only need to change the 3-groove pulley to a 2-groove pulley, which I have.

3. If I do that and I move the alternator to its correct, pass side location, what about spacers for the power steering pump? Is that going to come down to possible shims or is there a specific "spacer" I should be looking for?

Thanks for your patience.

MDchanic

1., 2. You're barking up the wrong tree. Unless your water pump has a damaged impeller (very rarely seen), "A/C" vs "non-A/C" will not change anything.

A high quality aftermarket water pump, such as FloKooler, may move more water, though, which won't hurt, and might (or might not) help.


3. I would not focus on which side your alternator is on. Nothing wrong with having it on the "correct" side, but it has nothing to do with your cooling issue.
Also, Search is your friend: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...p-spacers.html


- Eric

oldsman72

Thanks Eric. All of this is being done to return the shroud back into my car, which is what I believe is my greatest problem. The current location of the alternator, besides being incorrect, looks terrible and it's within about 3/4" of my upper radiator hose....too close for comfort. I'll try to find a picture.

Thanks for the link.

oldsman72

Here's a picture. Person who installed engine did what he could with parts he had and it's functional. Looks like he used the alternator bracket as the spacer for PS pump.

Fun71

Your picture shows huge air gaps on the side of the radiator, which I am not used to seeing (all my cars have AC). The factory closed those off to direct the air flow. Not sure how much that may affect your issue.

Gary M

It ain't helping any. They are cheap, MAW try em.

MDchanic

Barely.

Ew.

- Eric

olds 307 and 403

Joe posted this, which is super useful.https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...ZwhnAGdVGlI8nQ
You can try switching the pulley but it may not line up, different length pumps. The closed HD waterpump won't make much difference for cooling. As said those top gaps and no shroud will. Get either the 6 or 7 blade fan with the extra heavy duty clutch, add a shroud and your 4 core rad. Get the Robert Shaw high flow thermostat as well.