nofiveo

IMO, theres been some valid points made by everyone. The alum heads do have their benefits, but theres also the points made by Copper that there are other costs involved. Do the procomps need cometic headgaskets? I've read that Edelbrick warns against a certain P/N fel-pro gasket due to sealing issues with their heads? If so, thats like $80/gasket. Then theres the fuel pump issue. Most guys I know are working on their cars with whatever money they can scrape up between paying for stupid stuff like mortgages, insurance, braces, shoes etc. They tend to try and make what they've got work (isn't that the spirit of the hobby?) I'm doing a set of 7a's for my Cutlass.. did all the porting myself. I need to fill the crossovers and then it's off to the machine shop for w-31 valves and to shave a little off to bump the compression. I've got way more time than I've got extra cash so I chose to make the power rather than buy it. Well, that and the fact that given my experience with procomps version of a chebby head you couldn't give me a set. It all comes down to your pocketbook and how much you can do yourself.

firefrost gold

NOFIVEO the problem with your post's is you have the big *** photo of your car on them
I read two maybe three words an then my ADD kicks in and i stair at it . I can never get to the bottom of them .

nofiveo

Sorry Firefrost, I took the pic and washed it in hot water.. that better?

Bernhard

Your killing me

ihengineer76

I will put my two cents in this just because I am currently going through a swap to ProComps. The heads that are currently on my motor are a pair of #5's that were completely rebuilt. They were shaved to 62 cc's, have 2.00/1.625 stainless valves, new guides, springs, dampeners, seats, and seals. The ports were cleaned up, slight bowl work, exhaust port bumps removed, and crossovers filled. They also have studs, guide plates, and roller tip Comp rockers. All added up it was just under $1500 without the price of the cores (receipts to prove). I bought these this way as part of a package deal on the disassembled motor. I just bought a pair of the ProComps through Bernard Mondello and had them shaved to 68 cc's and include the 7111 intake. This was $1500. I will be re-using my rockers, so add $210 for those and the studs The cost of the fuel pump and regulator was just under $100. Block off plate for old fuel pump was $30 (again, receipts to prove). So for an additional cost of about $350, I get to take weight off the nose, get better flow, better combustion, and a nice shiny new intake. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. I went this route because I was chasing more than my factory iron could provide. I just figured I would put out some hard numbers on money for reference. Take this any way you want.

coppercutlass

what about head bolts ? does procomp specify what kind of head bolts and gaskets ? I appreciate you putting your cost's down and it's even better that it's for an sbo since i belive the op has an sbo.

ihengineer76

There was no specification about a particular head gasket to use. I didn't include gaskets or ARP bolts in the cost, since you would be using those for both types of heads. I suppose the ARP hardware is not necessary, but it's nice to have the added insurance.

380 Racer

Copper,
Are you really that proud to be a damn cheapskate? For $1720 in your heads you should be running low 12s. Maybe you need a REAL fuel pump? All things are a compromise........you want more performance, turn the stereo up and drown out the pump. I learned my lesson the hard way with my #7s. Many dollars and still wound up with a set of sprinklers then bought aluminums besides. Don't chinse out or it will bite you in the *** or you will wind up never going faster than high 12s. Do you think that's what I did? Actually I waited too long before I got rid of the 7s.

Remember "how deep are your pockets?"........."How fast do you want to go?"

coppercutlass

Nick all I want is 12's. For a reason it's afforadble and fits in. My budget

ramrod31

WOW I need a cigarette after that !
and I don't Smoke !!!

ramrod31

Help me out here , Why do you need a electric fuel pump ??

ihengineer76

You would need an electric pump with the aluminum heads due to the fact that the external dimensions interfere with a factory mechanical pump.

380 Racer

Yes I'm editing my post. To the OP......I had good success wth # 7s, not because they were #7s but because the amount of $$$$$ I had sunk in them. If you would like more details please PM me.

442rocketdave

Copper Cutlass just a note on the iron heads in a 350, my old buddy Buddy Ingersoll ran low 11s in Super Stock in the late 70s with iron heads In fact Jimmy Waibels car could run in the 10's with IRON HEADS so I know you will go low 12s or better. I do my own head work on my iron heads and it is time consuming but I like how it runs and I will get some of those procomps in the future because I am at the end with my iron heads so I will save up a grand and get those Aluminum ones and see what I can get out of them. I have been working on my 455 for 6 months and I still have a couple to go so I know what you mean!!

captjim

You don't know that he WILL go low 12s, he MAY, but there are many variables (fuel delivery, traction, ignition, etc) that result in a good ET. Another of my pet peeves are guys that throw SS numbers out there to support their arguments. Not apples to apples.

380 Racer

I agree with Jim. There should be no comparison between SS and a street driver. Copper has no idea what his car will do as it sits. Like Jim stated there is much more than an engine to produce good ETs.

Well Mr 442rocketdave my car was running 10.70s in the left shot in my sig line with a pair of #7s. But I don't know if Copper will crack the 12s or not. The iron heads did 10.60s after more porting but not for long since they wanted to fill the cylinders with water. I don't have those problems with my aluminum heads.

coppercutlass

I never made claims of numbers just what it should do. I have no idea what it will do . It should be in 12's but we will find out at the end of this month. I have said what my previous combo did and since im going with a much better cam , bigger bore, carb, and converter than my previous combo it should if everything is correct run in the range of that number. previous combo 60ft. was 2.02 with a 103 mph at 13.3 It needed a bigger carb and better converter. No money meant i was stuck with what i had. i have said this story so many times im sure we all know it. As of now based on it's street perfromance it runs what stronger than the 350 i had.

captjim

I disputed Dave's statement, not yours. You say you have no idea what it will do but have stated often that it will run in the 12s. It should. But with more power comes traction, tuning, and fuel delivery issues. Until it is dialed in and runs the number, it is just a guess. High 12s on a pump gas 355 street car is not all that easy.

coppercutlass

I ran 13.3's on a junk build. I never said it will run 12's just that it should and that's what I would like. The 103 mph is in the range for a 12 sec ride. So my previous 350 should have been in the 12 sec range. But lack of a looser converter and having enough fuel limited me to what I could do then once i had all the right parts i took all kinds of crap out in the bottom end. So based on previous experience and what I ran., this new engine should run stronger key word should. Again jim find where I said "it will run 12's " in any of my post then make that claim. Because I know to not count my chickens before they hatch. I'm assuming it will run 12's never said it will. Big diffrence cheif. I dont know what you have against me but you sure are quick to throw stones. Im sorry my thinking does not jive with yours but you dont have 2 fingers on your hand that are the same length. I do things based on what i got and what i can afford and many guys here can relate. I ran high 13's with stock freshened up 7A heads that cost 380 dollars to do. Im sorry but if someone just wants to run iron heads on a mild little street motor whats wrong with saving the coin. I spent 1700 on my top end but i went all out short of porting them.

captjim

Are these words??

442rocketdave

To Capt Jim and 380 racer what I said is his Iron heads will hold UP to low 12s and they are capable of running those times, his car or anyone's car can run those times with IRON heads, you dont need aluminum heads to run in the 11s or 10s period! I was running 10s with a single carb in the mid 70s with no alunimum heads. Careful work on iron heads can result in great gains in power combined with the right intake cam headers gears so on and so forth.

coppercutlass

Jim Despite the fact you very well know what im saying. You say nothing to back the fact up i said i would run 12's . I never did. Yet you question someones/ dave's opinion despite the fact that it's just an opinion . You sir are a troll your last post proves it. Everytime i call you out you post something a 9 year old kid would come back at me with.

380 Racer

This is a true statement about my car. It was running 10.7s without being a Super Stocker. Did it consistantly bracket racing.

442rocketdave

Copper Cutlass, I am a person who believes in positive thinking and for you running in the 12s, I wrote and article in Muscle Car Review back in the 90s and my 72 olds 442 350 ran against the new 93 G92 Trans Am I ran 14.07 with street tires and no headers, we super tuned the NEW Trans Am sent to us by Pontiac for the magazine to review and they had it sent to McClaren racing and they suped it up and it came back running 13.73 I tuned mine up with Jacobs Coil, wires, cap rotor and richend the metering rods and I ran 13.92 with a bone stock wore out 350. Your car should run well and all I said to catch all that flack was you could run 12s with those iron heads and even faster with the right combos. Man lately I cant say anything without getting hammered. Not everyone has a 1000 to 1600 extra for aluminum heads and roller cams, and there is nothing wrong with that either but there is nothing wrong with you tricking out your iron heads and getting into the 12s. Keep up the good work!!

coppercutlass

Nick What was the point of that last post ? Did anyone even question that fact ? Oh wait you guys read into things that arent there i forgot. Just like jim said that i said " it would run 12's" I say things like it should run 12's or i want it to run 12's meaning there is the possibility it might not run 12's but i have never stated it runs 12's becasue i dont have a time slip with that number on it. I hope that makes it clear . The definition of should defines it as probability or expectation. the definition of want is one of desire or wish for.

380 Racer

That last comment was aimed at rocketdave (obviously) because he was making such a big deal about running 11s........even 10s with IRON heads. So did I and I don't have a Super Stocker and I also don't cheap out on parts to do it.

I just made an intake & carb change. On the dyno it made 744 HP and 593 TQ. Dyno operator told me with colder water and unhooking the mufflers it would make 760+ HP. No junkyard traded parts allowed to get where I want to be.

coppercutlass

I don't think anyone can run those numbers on junkyard parts. I never said that either. But for what I'm doing it works for me. Which this isn't even the point. You have an all out race car your top end alone probably is worth more than my engine.

442rocketdave

I was not making a big deal over running in the 11s or 10 just stating a FACT that those times were run back in the early and mid 70s without all the speed equiptment that is available today and That IRON HEADS can run in the 12s with no problems on a 350 motor PERIOD! GEESHH!!!

Kennybill

All this "friendly banner" over a question about best head for "street play." Best is whatever one wants/can afford or already has. It's like getting into a braying contest with a jackass. Nobody going to change their opinion. By the way, JMO, Ken

442rocketdave

I totally agree with you Kennybill!!

captjim

I think we all agree that running 12s on a pump gas SBO is attainable with iron heads, though better fuel was available in the 70s. Also, the question isn't whether iron heads are less expensive, they are. The question is; are the advantages of the aluminum heads (better chamber, more Cr, lighter, more performance, easier to port) worth the additional cost? Each consumer will have to make up his/her own mind. I try not to use the term "better". Carrillo rods are "better" than stock. The better term is "cost effective upgrade". Are the Carrillo rods a cost effective upgrade on a 350 HP street car? Not in my opinion. Are the aluminum heads? Yes, In my opinion.

Can we also agree that if you pay a machine shop to get iron heads at the same performance level as the Pro Comps (flow, valves and valve job, center divider welded, crossovers blocked) that it would cost more and still be heavier with an inferior chamber and allow less Cr?

380 Racer

Well Kennybill & 442rocketdave, you guys both have blinders on. Where do you think street tech comes from? Yup you are correct........I feel like I'm talking to jackasses .

jag1886

Good grief the OP just wants some street heads.

captjim

This was the question in the first post,
"high performance Street play considering a 3:42 gear with a nice converter matched to a hot cam"

Again, depending on budget and goals, $100-$1200 in iron heads or $1600-$1800 in aluminum heads.

coppercutlass

380 it takes a jackass to know one.

cutlassefi

The Procomps are $1100.00pr. out the door with upgraded springs.

coppercutlass

Add all the runinng gear for them that needs to be used. 1100 is just for the heads. My whole top end which is iron heads cost me 1665 and thats with the intake. What i mean by this is ., if special bolts are needed, gaskets, fuel pump, block off, etc. Not everyone needs the heads like i have have. I had stockers that cost me 380 dollars to freshen up and went 13.71 with them. It's all in what you need and what your wallet allows.

442rocketdave

I agree CaptJim your 100% right, and 380 racer I raced on the street for years and on the track, I dont know what your talking about?? I said the iron heads are good, and I agree with you the aluminum are way better, lighter more cr less detonation better flow but with a tight budget you can if you do your own work and scrounge for parts do a pretty good job on the street with iron heads and when the budget allows get the aluminum because like Capt Jim said they are a cost effective upgrade, especially if you can find them used in good shape!!

captjim

But again, it is not apples to apples. Your "freshened up heads" do not have the flow, welded dividers, blocked crossovers, better chambers, etc. In fact, your re-worked iron heads with all that $ in them do not have the flow, chamber, or other benefits. And in both applications an intake upgrade is required, so that is a wash. Special bolts are not required. Your posts are confusing and contradictory, you stated that having the choice you would use Pro Comps but now seem like you are defending the iron. What exactly is your position?

cutlassefi

Why do you keep fighting this when you've said over and over that you'd do a set in a minute.

You don't need an intake with iron heads?
You don't need special rockers with the pc's. You don't need special anything except a fuel pump block off plate that you can make for 3$. They come with studs and guide plates. Let it go for crissakes.