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I have a 73 350, I haven't had the pan off, wonder if it is a lightweight crank? I wonder if it has to do with production run dates or is like the 68 forged 455 crank, just a random, this is the crank we assemble with, because it is here scenario.
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,721
Originally Posted by cutlassefi
Correct.
The “lightweight” cranks are 73-76 big block cranks that are no longer Nodular. They are a true cast crank, not very strong in that configuration.
The same holds true with later model 350’s as well as 403’s. I wouldn’t use those cranks either in anything making decent power, not even if they were internally balanced.
Hope this helps.
Lets not get carried away, I have a virgin 71 Toro core, but a the 425 looks very interesting to me as well, either way I have to be able to sell the engine when I'am done. I would use my Buick to test the Olds engine, I'am not going to build a whole new car just to test a engine.
Well we can dream...
I was thinking that using the least impressive candidate is a way of hammering home the performance gain. In a sense guaranteeing that any Olds 455 could do it. As I read your post I figured the lightly regarded J headed 455 would be the absolute base for Olds 455. And if you massaged 500 HP out if it. It would've been awesome.
With regards to Junker to Thumper, Car Craft was obviously advertising for the aftermarket and I get that. They used Edelbrock aluminum heads, Edelbrock performer rpm intake, etc. Where I figure you would work Olds heads to the max, tweak the factory intake manifold, etc.
Made for a very cool read. It's 17 years ago so most details are fuzzy at best. HotRod uploaded the article online, but it's missing a ton. Many Pontiac blogs mention it but only one to my knowledge has the major steps and results... The posted info does look familiar to me... Take with grain of salt but definitely resonates.
Junker to Thumpers 455 started life as a well maintained and reasonably driven 1976 Pontiac Grand Safari Wagon. As Car Craft noted when opening up the engine it showed little wear and tear. Quote it lived a charmed life. Essentially a perfect candidate for bolt ons instead of rebuild.
After modifications no clue what happened to engine or what it ran at track. As far as I knew the article didn't go that far and I don't recall follow up articles.
Did the 455 stay with the N crank till the end or did they go lightweight as well? If so, that could be interesting if a lightweight crank will survive multiple 1/4 mile passes.
Was not sure for Olds but for Pontiac 455 they lucked out. 1976 455 was last nodular crank. Considering Olds cranks we're forged for almost 10 years further than Pontiac. I was leaning Olds was still nodular for 1976. I see this thread has been updated since I first wrote but didn't submit this. Wishful thinking. Anyway here is a Pontiac chart.
Well now that the worst Olds candidate doesn't make much sense how about the best, 1966-1967 Toro 425. (forged crank and the most aggressive factory cam for a 425) And go nuts with every known tweak/modification to what was born there as possible. This beast should see 550 HP a helluva lot easier than a 76 455.
Those 66-67s are 385 HP and 480 LB FT gross. Wonder if a regular height factory intake alone bumped it to 400 HP and 500 TQ ...
Would it be possible to see 500 HP with extensive head and exhaust work without an aftermarket cam ?
Vortec whichever way you go I am looking forward to your build.
P.S. Too bad 1973-1976 Olds big block was so compromised I would've loved to see you get your hands on a 1975 455 H/O or a 1976 455 442 and make it all it can be with only mods to stock parts... Again wishful thinking as you guys already verified a cast crank for these models.
Yeah, not only lightweight cranks, 8 to 1 soup bowel pistons and shitty J heads. These are usually the only running cores here that aren't knocking, usually $700 and up. Pontiac and Buick, while their 455's went out with a whimper, there were some redeeming qualities, like the nodular Armasteel crank in the Pontiac 455. With a 76 Olds 455, basically the block was it, the rest is throw away. It was good it didn't survive for the 77 model to have windowed mains, imagine that disaster. The majority of 77 to 79 Pontiac 400 blocks also have thinner mains as well. Buick while having awful heads, the 75/76 455 blocks are supposedly the strongest factory blocks. You have to think Buick was doing a favor for it's racers.
Yeah, not only lightweight cranks, 8 to 1 soup bowel pistons and shitty J heads. These are usually the only running cores here that aren't knocking, usually $700 and up. Pontiac and Buick, while their 455's went out with a whimper, there were some redeeming qualities, like the nodular Armasteel crank in the Pontiac 455. With a 76 Olds 455, basically the block was it, the rest is throw away. It was good it didn't survive for the 77 model to have windowed mains, imagine that disaster. The majority of 77 to 79 Pontiac 400 blocks also have thinner mains as well. Buick while having awful heads, the 75/76 455 blocks are supposedly the strongest factory blocks. You have to think Buick was doing a favor for it's racers.
Buick didn't have it's R&D cut like Oldsmobile did by Gm. Brag about buicks all you want but you are not accounting for what really happened when the budget axe hit Oldsmobile. Is it any wonder the nothing in the way of performance was built after 1970 for Oldsmobile.
Not a Buick guy, who was bragging? Oldsmobile, the 350 especially is my favorite motor. It was GM most durable 350 motor stock till 80, when it was canceled. I am well aware of favoritism in GM, it was usually to brand "C". The two former Olds employees who have passed away, mentioned it on multiple occasions.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; December 20th, 2020 at 10:38 AM.
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,721
Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403
Yeah, not only lightweight cranks, 8 to 1 soup bowel pistons and shitty J heads. These are usually the only running cores here that aren't knocking, usually $700 and up. Pontiac and Buick, while their 455's went out with a whimper, there were some redeeming qualities, like the nodular Armasteel crank in the Pontiac 455. With a 76 Olds 455, basically the block was it, the rest is throw away. It was good it didn't survive for the 77 model to have windowed mains, imagine that disaster. The majority of 77 to 79 Pontiac 400 blocks also have thinner mains as well. Buick while having awful heads, the 75/76 455 blocks are supposedly the strongest factory blocks. You have to think Buick was doing a favor for it's racers.
The Buick 455 block is horrible, the Buick heads are better than a Olds heads. The strong point of a Buick 455 is its big bore short stroke, and strong low lift flow. My 455 Buick with 10.67 compression .398 lift hyd flat tappet cam, 2.00 intake valve, factory cast iron intake, Q-Jet made 531 HP @ 5700 RPM and carried that to 6000 RPM, 590s TQ. The Buick is MUCH harder on bearings than the Olds.
Given the chance Oldsmobile & Buick divisions would have given Chevy a run for their money.
This is a very rare 455 Buick X block prior to 4 bolt main conversion.
They came in 2 bolt and 4 bolt configuration.
The Buick and Oldsmobile divisions had to fight with their arms tied behind their back.
Chevy threw an absolute tantrum over the Olds Hemi. One of the Dave's mentioned all the dyno numbers. With 8 to 1 compression, .400" cam and a single Qjet, 400 hp! In hot form, 550 hp,impressive. I was going to mention the shitty 455 Buick block. How is the Buick's oil system?
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; December 21st, 2020 at 09:38 AM.
Chevy threw an absolute tantrum over the Olds Hemi. One of the Dave's mentioned all the dyno numbers. With 8 to 1 compression, .400" cam and a single Qjet, 400 hp! In hot form, 550 hp,impressive. I was going to mention the shitty 455 block. How is the Buick's oil system?
They had a fix for oiling issues in the Buick engine that required an external line.
The engineers at Oldsmobile and Buick were up to producing a performance engine if given the funding and support.
It's to bad there could have been some very good competition among the engineers, this would have driven everyone's program.
I don't think there there is any difference in a 455 oldsmobile engine block called a hemi and a common 455 block that has been drilled for four bolt main as shown in pictures. Please enlighten me. I am talking BLOCK only.
Last edited by wr1970; December 21st, 2020 at 02:56 PM.
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,721
Originally Posted by Bernhard
They had a fix for oiling issues in the Buick engine that required an external line.
The engineers at Oldsmobile and Buick were up to producing a performance engine if given the funding and support.
It's to bad there could have been some very good competition among the engineers, this would have driven everyone's program.
The rear main on a Buick is fed from the lifter bore galley, as the oil moved past the the 8 lifters going up and down it was my theory the oil was foamed before it made back to the rear main housing, I sleeved all 8 lifter bores, ran a 1/16 hole in the lifter bores sleaves to feed the lifters. Although the lifter bore housing had to be welded to accept the sleeves. This accomplishes basically the same thing as the oil line you posted about, which is not legal in NHRA stock.
I don't think there there is any difference in a 455 oldsmobile engine block called a hemi and a common 455 block that has been drilled for four bolt main as shown in pictures. Please enlighten me. I am talking BLOCK only.
Both the Buick and Hemi Oldsmobile blocks are much stronger castings just look at how thick the main webs are.
The newly designed and still manufactured Rocket Racing 455 block is capable of handling supposedly 2,500HP
Yes it is and it's a thing of Beauty.
The reason I posted the vintage Oldsmobile & Buick blocks and heads was to point out that the Oldsmobile & Buick engineers were up to the challenge of delivering a true performance engine.
They were not given equal footing to do so because of pressure from Chevy division.
I am glad you can see the difference in thickness on the so called hemi olds block. But where are the facts? Got any measurements to prove it?
Yes, let us just go outside and measure our 455 hemi blocks...
Its a night and day difference, obvious from just looking at the two side by side. An F block narrows significantly between the mains and the pan rails. That hemi block doesn't.
I am glad you can see the difference in thickness on the so called hemi olds block. But where are the facts? Got any measurements to prove it?
Look at the main caps as they register to the block. On the hemi block they are full width all the way back to the pan rail, on the standard block they neck down.
If you save the photo I posted you can increase the size of the photo to aid viewing the differences in the two blocks.
[QUOTE=Bubba68CS;1303116]Yes, let us just go outside and measure our 455 hemi blocks...
Nice
On facebook one of the leading rocker arm manufacturers posted a picture of the Oldsmobile hemi rocker arm set up, that was dropped off to be worked on.
Look at the main caps as they register to the block. On the hemi block they are full width all the way back to the pan rail, on the standard block they neck down.
If you save the photo I posted you can increase the size of the photo to aid viewing the differences in the two blocks.
Yes I seen where the main cap area is wider but you said webs! The register area is where the cap bolt to i get that but that doesn't mean the web is thicker. Good pictures. By the way.
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,721
Originally Posted by wr1970[img]images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/img]
I use a aluminum tray and two piece intake gaskets. Tray is to keep oil off intake. I throw turkey trays in the trash. I doubt it any hp is gained with one or the other. Blocking hot air on heads i think does help. Carry on VTP you're in the spot light. Waiting for your next build. This one not to bad. If your customer is happy that is all that matters.
Yes I seen where the main cap area is wider but you said webs! The register area is where the cap bolt to i get that but that doesn't mean the web is thicker. Good pictures. By the way.
When I enlarge the photo of the Hemi block the entire web is much thicker than the standard block IMO.
So we'll just have to disagree.
With a 76 Olds 455, basically the block was it, the rest is throw away. It was good it didn't survive for the 77 model to have windowed mains, imagine that disaster. The majority of 77 to 79 Pontiac 400 blocks also have thinner mains as well.
Very surprised Oldsmmbile would do this... Why would a 350 have a better crank than a 455... unless that chart I posted is wrong...
With regards to Pontiac the late 70s W72 had a kick *** reputation. Equally surprised that Pontiac would so badly limit that engine with the double whammy. Terrible era for cars in so many ways.
Agreed, that chart is wrong. The 260, 307, later 350 and 403 all had lightweight cranks, not a single N. The last 76 350 I just pulled apart had a lightweight crank. A big difference between it and the two 330 cranks on my shelf in weight. I also saw some info the Pontiac W72 had the earlier heavy duty blocks but who knows. Yeah, compare them to everything else in that era, that T/A killed them. What else could do high 14/ low 15 seconds 1/4 mile times, nothing else domestic. Too bad Olds didn't do a 78 H/O with the new 403, not the raw power of the W72 but much lighter with all the factory aluminum pieces.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; December 26th, 2020 at 05:06 AM.
That chart has errors. The only 455 steel crank was 1968 early production. Ive only found them in 455 2bbl motors.
Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403
Agreed, that chart is wrong. The 260, 307, later 350 and 403 all had lightweight cranks, not a single N. The last 76 350 I just pulled apart had a lightweight crank. A big difference between it and the two 330 cranks on my shelf in weight.
I believe you guys, I guess the only way to truly know is opening them up. Cutlassefi also stated 1973-1976 are regular cast for 455. So nodular till 1972 for 455... which makes a lot of sense when you consider a 1972 W30 was just about as powerful as ever. And I'm figuring nodular till at least 1970 on 350 considering no 350 after 1970 had been asked to do much.
Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403
I also saw some info the Pontiac W72 had the earlier heavy duty blocks but who knows. Yeah, compare them to everything else in that era, that T/A killed them. What else could do high 14/ low 15 seconds 1/4 mile times, nothing else domestic. Too bad Olds didn't do a 78 H/O with the new 403, not the raw power of the W72 but much lighter with all the factory aluminum pieces.
Incredible performance especially in the dead zone of 1975-1984. Definitely the most powerful and absolutely underrated. They ran like W31s. Only L82 Corvettes could tangle with it back in the late 70s. Pontiac was seemingly getting away with murder in the mid to late 70s so to speak. 1973, 1974, SD and late 70s W72 were essentially much more powerful than they should have been...
And I wholeheartedly agree with Oldsmobile going with the 403 in the Calais. The 1979 H/O and the 1980 442 would have been beyond special and really had some hustle (no pun intended) back in that day.
When I enlarge the photo of the Hemi block the entire web is much thicker than the standard block IMO.
So we'll just have to disagree.
I agree but remember I ask for facts you have a opinion and that's okay. I have a opinion also. Facts is tells the story. But hey the Rocket racing block is way better than the so called hemi . Next question is who will build that block and bust into seven's.
How similar are the webs in comparison to a D or DX block?
I looked for a clear picture to compare the main webs, I was unable to source one. The D and DX blocks are very robust so it would make for a very good comparison.
I believe you guys, I guess the only way to truly know is opening them up. Cutlassefi also stated 1973-1976 are regular cast for 455. So nodular till 1972 for 455... which makes a lot of sense when you consider a 1972 W30 was just about as powerful as ever. And I'm figuring nodular till at least 1970 on 350 considering no 350 after 1970 had been asked to do much.
Incredible performance especially in the dead zone of 1975-1984. Definitely the most powerful and absolutely underrated. They ran like W31s. Only L82 Corvettes could tangle with it back in the late 70s. Pontiac was seemingly getting away with murder in the mid to late 70s so to speak. 1973, 1974, SD and late 70s W72 were essentially much more powerful than they should have been...
Nodular 350 cranks can be found in all 68-72’s. Mines a June 72 built 350 and had an N crank.
And you’re right, Pontiac was still making nice stuff into the mid 70’s, I just finished a ‘74 400 based 490 Stroker and the block was rock solid. Made real good power too
Just wondering what and average Joe could get this style of motor to run in a normal run of the mill 1971 442 with say 3.42 gear? Mid 11's maybe?
How efficient the car uses the HP/TQ is a big factor in ET goals. The less efficient the car the more HP/TQ required to run mid 11's. coppercutlass car is an example of an efficient use of HP/TQ on a budget.
December 19th, 2020, 09:57 AM
