1962 dynamic 88. Was putting the top up and the pump just stopped. Not struggled like low fluid, completely dead. Makes me think electrical, not mechanical, but right now I don't have time to figure that all out, so what I'm hoping someone can help me figure out is if there's a manual override so I can get the top up until I have a chance to fix it.

​​​​​​You can't just pull it up, but maybe there's a cable I can release and then I can? Thanks for any input.

 

You'll have to disconnect the hydraulic rams from the top frame. Even then might be a 2 person job to pull it up and latch.

I think 62 was using a circuit breaker on the CVT power feed. You might wait a bit and see if it resets and finishes raising the top before you start taking things loose. Then you have to find out why the CB opened. Could be old and weak, could be top is binding or needs lubrication.

 

On the 54 I had, the circuit breaker was on the firewall on the left side. It would be near the master cylinder if that is where it is on a 62.

 

You might try jumping the top motor or at the CB with a jump box if you can get to it with the top down. I'm not up on the 62 series so you might not be able to reach anything, but like Glenn said the cylinder bolts should be exposed and with two people you can get the top-up with a little straining... Tedd

 

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Managed to garage it for now and will troubleshoot soon. Hopefully it's the CB, but it didn't reset even after a few hours.

 

Validate you have voltage into the CB. If you have voltage into the CB most likely the CB has failed for whatever reason.

 

I just got back to it after waiting a week and the top budged for about 2 seconds. I jumped the switch with a wire and got another 2 seconds. But no consistent power.

I can't find any reference to the CB in the manual, but from google I believe it's this piece. I get 12v to ground on the right, 0 on the left. I tried just removing it and connecting the wires directly, but no joy. (Not sure if that should've worked but I thought it would bypass the CB).

I also tried bypassing the switch and that made it budge for another second.

Appreciate any other ideas, otherwise it's time for me to hire out!

 

I don't own a '62 Dynamic 88 & I don't own either a '62 Dynamic 88 wiring diagram or a '62 Dynamic 88 CSM. I think you evaluated/performed a decent diagnosis bypassing the CM & the Switch if you bypassed them correctly (no reason to suspect you did not). With that said, before I head out to the world of unknowns (hire out), I think I'd I'd place a 12V battery in the trunk (assuming that's where your top motor is located) and wire the 12V battery directly to the positive terminal and the negative terminal of the motor & see what happens - effectively bypassing everything in between - ensure you have a tasty secure clean ground source.

 

That was actually going to be my next post, whether that's a good idea or if there's some kind of voltage step down before it gets to that hydraulic motor? I'm looking at the wiring diagram and I just can't find anything to that motor so I'm not sure, but since there are no other stuff downs except for blinkers I'm going to assume not. Just making sure you're not

 

IMO, like many motors if there’s a step-down it’s likely to reside inside motor housing. If it’s anything like say an electric clothes dryer (example) there may even exist a clutch which often steps down the voltage briefly for engagement then fully operates (spins) at the correct voltage &/or amperage during cycling.

 

I found a replacement pump online and it stated 12V. But no mention of amps. So I plugged the 12v battery right to the leads. Motor didn't make a sound, and the wires immediately got hot enough to start melting to the terminals.

The pain here is that the motor isn't accessible with the top down.

Question for those who know hydraulics better than me, if I disconnect the pump from the rams will I be able to muscle this thing up?

 

Unfortunately, I don't own either the service manual for your car or the wiring diagram. I'll mention none-the-less, you should have a power (hot) wire (each) for the UP (power side) & the DOWN (power side). Albeit, two power wires and dedicated ground. You didn't somehow hook up both the UP & the DOWN power leads together when you tried hooking up the battery?

 

I think it's just polarity reverse, so the pump can operate in either direction. At least that's my assumption based on the fact that there are only two wires on the harness.

I haven't been able to find the pump in my service manual, but I'll have another look later.

 

What if both are power and the ground is through the chassis?

You may be able to measure the resistance between the wires and the pump body to see if you can determine how it's wired.

 

You are correct, finally found the details in the service manual. Under the body section instead of electrical or hydraulics (hence the reason I missed it). There's actually a whole page of stepwise troubleshooting steps. Hoping to try them out tonight (assuming I didn't fry the pump with my screw up).

 

Based on my experience with 1966 98 convertible:

If you can get at the bolts at the top of the rams, you can lift the top up manually. It's heavy, but not too terrible. Two people could do it easily. I think I ran my car this way for 6-9 months many years ago. But if you're not going to replace the rams soon, either remove them or get them in to the down position so they don't bend or otherwise interfere with the top when it's in the down position.

Once the top is up, everything is visible and you can get to work on a fix or replacement.

If you have the rear seat & rear quarters (piston covers) out, you can even remove the hydraulic rams themselves to give you better access to the bolts at the top of the rams.

Don't worry about frying the top motor, they're pretty sturdy, though they do eventually wear out. New ones are available from Convertible Service in CA and I think there's a Florida supplier too.

If it's not making noise (electrical motor noise) it's either seized or is not getting both + and - electrical connection. Your battery, some heavy gauge black (-) and red (+) and a couple of alligator clips will help you trouble shoot the motor. Alligator clip the negative side to the motor's metal body - maybe one of the mounting arms. Then use the other (red) alligator clip to touch either connector to the motor with the positive lead then listen & see what happens.

If the motor is making noise and not moving the top, the fluid reservoir could be low/empty, or the ram seals may not be sealing to allow pressure up/down.

Hope this helps.
Chris

 

On the hydraulics, the pump motor is just an electric motor - not too different in size or design from your wiper motor. Not that they're interchangeable, but just FYI.

But once the motor starts pumping fluid, you're depending on the plastic hydraulic lines to the rams and the pump motor seal to direct the fluid into the rams and nowhere else.

If your pump seal has gone, you'll probably see a mess on your convertible's rear seat floor. Or maybe in the trunk. The pump reservoir has a pressed in rubber plug to allow draining & filling. If you overfill the reservoir, the plug will shoot out and/or you can blow the pump motor seal. The plug looks sort of like an oversized vacuum cap.

If the plastic lines are empty, well, see where they sprayed fluid out (hope this is not your case). The plastic lines seal to the rams and to the motor with brass fittings. These fittings are fairly soft, but don't fail often. If you have a hydraulic problem one of the most common problems is the ram seals have gone and you'll need new rams.

These are fairly simple systems, but most of documentation assumes you're a professionally trained mechanic looking at a book in 1965...

Chris

 

It may or it may not be reverse polarity; but, one thing is certain - if you hooked up both wires together you'd never achieve any reverse polarity.

 

So finally got power hooked up directly to the motor and motor ground (assuming the ground wire is still in tact anyway, I can't get to the motor housing directly). No response at all. Makes me think it's seized. There's definitely no leaking. (thank goodness)

So, I took out the back seat and am trying to disconnect the rams, but I can't get a wrench on the backend so the whole bolts is spinning when I rotate the nut. It's a tight space when the top is down. I'm thinking I'm going to have to disconnect and drain the hydraulic lines so this thing can move manually. I don't know, going to leave it for the night and see if there are any fresh ideas in the new day.

 

You’re on your way. Here are some messy next moves. Messy because you can open the lines, but if you move the top when the lines are open, you more or less have 2 spray bottles (the rams) just waiting to spray fluid all over as you try to move the top up. Put towels around the fluid ports or protect your interior some other way.

If the motor is seized, one good next move is to open the fittings on the hydraulic lines at the rams (which ever ones you can get to) and drain out some of the fluid. You can also cut the lines, if you want to commit to buying new ones. But yeah, reducing fluid pressure in the rams may also allow you to move the top manually.

If you can open all 4 ram brass fittings and get at least some fluid out, you may be able to pull the top frame up once hydraulic pressure in the rams is reduced from draining. I’d start with the 2 easiest ram fittings and see if I could get the top to move, if that doesn’t work, then go after the other 2.

If the lines are disconnected but there’s still fluid in the rams, as you raise the top look out for bending the top frame. It’s unlikely, but possible that fluid pressure vs. your upward force on the frame could bend something. Go slowly.

 

I was afraid that was my next step, mostly since I get to work on this nights alone and that sounds like a two person job. Hey, thanks for all the help, I have a related question: About 2 years ago my top stopped lifting but the motor ran, so per the manual spec I topped off the pump with brake fluid. My investigations for this particular issue show me the pump has likely been replaced once before (the wires from the pump have been cut and spliced into a new harness). If, whoever did the pump swap before I bought the car in 1995 switched the brake fluid for trans fluid in the system, would me mixing the two have caused this issue, or would've that been a more immediate issue? I see lots of "don't mix" posts, but I haven't discovered what happens if you do mix.

 

Happy to help. I’ve been where you are.

I’ve always heard the “don’t mix” advice and followed it. Over the years between 1962 and now, your car has likely had several top motors. Mixing might have caused this pump failure, but these motors (and rams and lines) have a lifespan of 5-15 years depending on use so I wouldn’t worry whether you did anything wrong.

Decades ago my car had brake fluid in it, but somewhere along the way a line went and it ate the interior paint under the rear seat. Whatever failed, I eventually switched to transmission fluid and have been happy. Either will work, just choose one. Brake fluid and transmission fluid smell different, if you have a hydraulic problem, which signal would you like to smell?

I don’t know how to clean the system if there has been a mix, but I’m not sure it needs to be surgically perfect either. If I had to do it, I’d probably try brakleen in the rams and lines and cycle them a bunch and remove the pump reservoir to throughly clean it too. Then do the flush/fill procedure on the top motor with the lines in a bucket just to clean out the motor itself.

I can’t think of a good reason to splice the electrical wires on this system unless someone was trying to bypass a failed circuit breaker on the firewall. See your Chassis Service Manual for the correct electrical gauge and connections. The wiring is not complex, but you want to be sure the gauge matches the fairly high amperage the motor draws in operation. For reference, the circuit breaker is 40 amps. The implication there is that some quickie-spliced 14 gauge wires will get hot pretty quick and may melt their insulation causing at least a failure, if not a fire hazard.

Having worked decades on my convertible at night, solo, I recently found that a ratchet strap attached to the top can act a really effective assistant. Loop 2 evenly spaced straps (1 on each side) through the top frame somewhere where it won’t tear the top then over garage rafters and you have a method of raising and lowering solo. Or hook them into the front header seal at the front corners of the top.

Cheers
Chris

 

How about put the ends of the lines into empty soda bottles and duct tape them so they stay in place. Then the fluid will be contained in the bottles instead of spraying everywhere.

 

Catching the stuff in the lines shouldn't be too bad, but the connection point on the ram is against the floor with no real room to maneuver, even the service manual says to have plenty of towels ready. I'm hoping ng being stuck in the down position means minimal fluid in them though

 

When in operation, the rams rotate on their pivot bolts. So you can rotate the bottoms of the ram up about 15-25° to get some working room.

 

I was imagining the tubes disconnected at the pump, not at the top cylinders.

 

Don´t do my mistake on this , checked the Oldsmobile manual where it says check the fluid level
with top fully raised. And of course the motor seal blow when taking the top down. Our car has a
convertible motor from Convertible Service in CA so i mailed them and always check fluid level
with top down.

 

Only a month later, but finally got my top up. Figured I'd update the thread so any future individuals can benefit from my lessons (there were a bunch!).

#1) If you think your system is about to break, fix it. This thing is definitely made to work on with the top UP. Stuck down really made my life harder.
#2) See the picture I attached, if you knock out the cotter pin here and remove the pivot bolt (I think that's the right term) you can put the bottom of the ram into a little plastic cup and really reduce your mess.
#3) When you make the ram longer, fluid wants to squirt out the top opening of the ram, and the bottom flexible hose. When you make the ram shorter it shoots out the bottom opening on the ram and the top flexible hose. (thank goodness I had my glasses on when I learned this lesson, and I'm an eye doctor, so it would've been an embarrassing call to a colleague.)
#4) Once the ram is out, the top operates very smoothly manually. I'm going to fix it properly, but at least now I have no rush.

And for any one curious, as I drained the fluid from the passenger side of the system I drained some nice clean fluid, looks like it just came out of the bottle this afternoon. The driver side, black and filthy with metal shavings. Additionally, as I removed the ram from the top connections, the passenger side basically fell out, but the left required a small pry bar. I figure the driver's side ram was failing and bending and stressed out the motor (I'm really hoping the frame of the top is something I can straighten out once I have the new setup). Once I got the top up and took out the hydraulic motor, all sorts of corrosion that wasn't there when I topped off the fluid last summer, figure I blew a seal on that thing. Given the metal shavings I'm going to replace the whole thing from pump to hoses to rams.

Thanks to every one on the thread, especially @cfair !

 

Congratulations on the beginning of the fix. I’ve been on the receiving end of good advice from members here so many times, it’s great to think I might have helped a bit.

Now that you’re into it, I suggest you replace the electro-mechanical parts of the system as a unit at the same time so you have a known-good set up as of one specific date. Generally the dash top switches don’t go wrong. They were built to last. I’ve only replaced mine to improve the cosmetic chrome plating, not the switch function.

If I were in your shoes, I’d replace the top motor, plastic lines & rams at one time & put the install date on all parts so you have reminder of when you did the work on the parts. That way you (or the next owner) will know how old the parts are when something goes wrong next time. The side benefit is that the next time you have the back seat out you’ll go “Oh yeah, I did the top system in Summer of 2023, nothing to worry about until at least 2030.” It’s a good feeling knowing either from a log book or dates scrawled on parts as to how old they are.

You can definitely piecemeal repairs, but that approach costs you seat removal and troubleshooting time every time an aging part breaks. If system cost is on your mind, pull the motor, plastic lines and rams, then raise & lower the top manually for a season or 2. There’s an outside shot you won’t miss the power function.

Still, for me, part of the fun is watching these good but ancient systems do their magic. Children in 2023 have mostly never seen hydraulics in action and it’s fun to watch their faces as a convertible top opens or closes. Just as much fun now as when I _was_ the kid.

Cheers
Chris

 

That's the plan, I'm also going to label exactly what fluid I fill it with since it won't match the brake fluid listed in manual and may be what started this mess in the first place!

Given that the biggest hassle is draining the system, and that the tubes are almost certainly full of shavings the whole system is definitely getting replaced.