nj_cutlass72

alright, this happened twice..

on a hot day, after a drive, I try to crank the car after I stop and nothing happens... if I sit around for 30 mins or an hr it starts like nothing happened..

Do I need to change the starter/solenoid?

don71

Or a third choice...battery cable and its connections at the battery. I would be looking over the negative cable as well.

Sounds like sooner than later you will be removing the starter. This is the best time to replace both the starter and the solenoid and perhaps the postive cable. You might get lucky and just need a soenoid, but the starter has to come out any way.

oldcutlass

Make sure all your connections at the starter are clean and tight. Clean your battery terminals and the terminal at the horn relay. Make sure your cables are not corroded.

If all that checks good, you probably need a solenoid and or/starter motor. After you do all of the above, the next time it does it, give it a good whack with a bfh while someone turns the key.

1970cs

Nothing happens? you mean hit the key no crank at all? or dose it try to roll over but very low crank speed? Which engine?

My dads 1976 98 did this about twice a year usually we just got a reman starter and it would be good for 6-9 months. Seems that the 455 needed a heat sheild.

Could be also that heat is increaseing the resistance in the cables and starter causeing a higher amp draw. Try making sure that both ends of the battery cables are clean and tight, also check for a green discoloration in the cables them selves (migration of corosion)

Pat

1971 Supreme

I have a 70 GTO that used to do just what yours is doing, But mine would do it every time. On mine the heat caused a Huge voltage drop on the wiring going to the starter. The heatsoak induced into the wiring acted like a huge resistor. After it cooled off some, it would start with no problems at all. I installed a ford starter solenoid, and jumped the "S" terminal to the battery terminal at the starter. Connected the wiring which was origially at the starter to the fender mounted solenoid and have never had another problem again with hot starts. I think Summit and Jegs sells it as a kit, but it cheaper to just get the solenoid at a local auto parts store. Make the jumper out of 10guage wire and it will work the same as the speed shops kit. Just an idea??

nj_cutlass72

good feedback, will get a new cable, clean the terminals and replace the solenoid/starter.

oldcutlass

Before you change anything, check all your connections.

HonestDave

I've had the same trouble over the years. I've had too many car problems to count (haven't we all), but I do remember at least 3 or 4 times in the last 30 years I've had cars that did exactly what you're saying. Wouldn't start hot, but started when left sitting for 20-30 minutes, and always start cold.

1-69 New Yorker 440, Heat riser valve stuck closed and engine didn't show overheating, but starter or engine got too hot to even turn over. Wired valve open and trouble went away.

2-66 Pontiac with Chev 283- Heat riser valve again. Engine or starter also got so hot it wouldn't even turn over. Wired it open and trouble diappeared again.

3-70 GTO-Turned out to be charging at 17 volts. Was actually over-charging the battery. Replaced the regulator and trouble went away.

If I think of others I'll let you know. Also had many cars over the years that heated up the battery cables so hot you could burn yourself. Think they had bad connections, but don't remember whether they were hard starting hot or cold or both.

nj_cutlass72

hey fellaz,

Im looking for recommendation on where to obtain parts for this job. I decided to change the battery cables also getting a new solenoid and I guess a rebuilt starter. I see it as a investment and also it covers all angles.

I remember my dad use to take trips to Advance auto and get a rebuilt starter, is this still the case? what do I do with my existing starter? do I order a new solenoid? can I do all this at my local part store or take advantage of online options?

Fusick comes to mind, any other suggestions?

thanks in advance.

Rickman48

Any Auto Parts store should stock it, and it comes with the solenoid.
If it was me, I'd replace the battery cabes, and make sure the gound[s] from the firewall to the valve covers are clean and attatched'
Had this problem with a '69 - the cables were corroded internally.
Strip a little insulation - if you see green, it's NOT money!

HonestDave

It covers "some" of the angles. I almost always find that if there's a number of possible issues, I'll get to the correct one last. In honor of my laziness, I've started to pick the least expensive and easiest things first. Why don't you try a cable or two, if it doesn't fix things, change the starter. Keep checking and trying things. Let us know how you're doing. If your car has a butterfly-type valve in the exhaust, make sure it's opening and closing properly. Some of these things are really easy to check, and you can rule them out. Maybe your car is actually overheating. I had a 225 slant six that would run fine until it got hot, and then seize. Wouldn't do anything until it cooled down, and then do it all over again. Temp didn't read hot. Turned out the guy I bought it from had drained the rad, and forgotten. It had seized at least three or four times before I figured it out. Believe it or not, car was fine after I replaced the coolent. Drove it for a couple years until I wiped it out.

MDchanic

Okay, all of the posts above considered, I would recommend that you troubleshoot this problem before you go randomly replacing parts.

It sounds like when it's hot, you turn the ignition key, all of the dashboard lights come on, and when you turn to Start, the starter motor doesn't turn at all, and the solenoid doesn't click.
If that's the case, please let us know.

Here are the questions you must answer:

• When you are NOT trying to start it, what is the voltage at the battery?
  [Battery condition]
• When you are NOT trying to start it, what is the voltage at the starter's large (+) terminal?
  [Quality of the heavy cables and their terminals and connections]
• When you are trying to start it, what is the voltage at the battery?
  (Seeing whether the headlights dim significantly is a good substitute for an actual voltage reading)
  [Battery quality and possibility of a short in the starter windings or a bind in the starter]
• When you are trying to start it, what is the voltage at the starter's large (+) terminal?
  [Condition of large cables, terminals, and connections, and possibility of a short in the starter windings or a bind in the starter]
• When you are trying to start it, what is the voltage at the Solenoid's "S" terminal?
  [Condition of circuit to solenoid and condition of solenoid]

Once you have this information, you will be able to make an intelligent diagnosis of your problem. Otherwise, you are just throwing darts with a blindfold on.

- Eric

brown7373

I had the same problem a few years back on a freshly rebuilt 455 Pontiac. I was afraid to stop for gas, because the starter hardly cranked, and everything was new. The problem was one of the repo parts houses supplied me with a very pretty 4 gauge negative cable. Cold engine no problem. But once warmed up, it was too small to carry the power to the starter. I switched to a 1 gauge (I over compensated, I think 2 gauge was stock) negative cable and never had any cranking issues again. A 2 gauge will carry TEN times the amps of a 4 gauge, and a 1 will carry 10 times that of the 2. So if one or both cables is too light, or doesn't have good, clean connections, it won't work.

nj_cutlass72

Darn, this would be a good diagnosis however I took the starter off and removed the cables too! Looks like I need a voltage meter too.

here's the thing, I bought my ride about a year a half ago and at the time the owner tragically had passed away so his wifes new ex (it was odd) was selling the car on her behalf. The ex selling the car had told me sometimes the car doesnt crank and he would actually yank on the cable going to the starter for a crank and had a bungee cord applying tension.

After I got the car back at my house, I took the starter off and found out that the wires going to the solenoid was loose so I tightend and re-installed. Since then I havent had a issue.

Ok since few months ago I installed an amplifier to the aftermarket radio because the only speakers that I have on the front of the car are difficult to hear especially with top down, so the amp is wired together with the radio so they use the same wire.... and come to think of it I've been having this issue since then.

So the cranking issue was very random or I should say sporadic. It first happened after running the car for an extended time under hot conditions so it would happen when i crank after a drive but just recently, when i drove almost at midnight under cool conditions it happend the 4th time so the whole hot concept went out the window.

My thinking was why not just do a clean sweep, battery cables, starter, solenoid.. my last resort would be the battery itself.. i was doing all this bc I have limited history on the car. If I need to get rid of the amp then so be it.. removing amp and attempting a recrank when im stuck does not help...

so thats my story!

HonestDave

It won't hurt to have some new cables and starter, although I've never liked changing Olds starters. It's small money and some time. Gives you a chance to make sure all those connections are clean. Make sure you have nice thick wires. Don't forget to check the voltage. It only takes a second to put the meter across the battery terminals when the car is running. You want around 13.5 volts when running. That's what I like to see. Others people may feel different.

My old GTO, like I said before, used to not start sometimes after a decent drive. Sometimes it was late at night, as well. Drove me nuts. Sit there for 20 minutes or more and then it would work. Charging at 17 volts was cooking the battery. It was going low on battery acid (water) as well. Put a new regultor in and it was fixed.

Also had one of my Oldsmobiles, 69 455, was flakey. Would start most of the time, but every once in a while it would just do nothing. Took the starter out and the electrical guy said there was nothing wrong with it. Got him to swap it for another used one anyway, just to try, and the problem never came back.

I have a feeling you're going to be really knowledgeable on your cars electrical when this thing is finally solved !!

4rims

I had the same problem with my 68 442 400. It was verry frustrating because i had to wait 30 min after stopping every time.

I changed battery cables to bigger gauge diameter, replaced starter solenoid. and made a round shield that protects the solenoide. You can also buy the shield from year one if I recall correctly.

The problem completely went away.

Dave

MDchanic

And check it when the car is NOT running, too!

- Eric

brown7373

Another thought...I know Pontiac's have 3 different starter levels for different engine sizes, depending upon engine size, compression. etc., and I would assume other GM divisions would be the same. There are 2 metal tabs that come out of the starter to connect to the solenoid. If both lighter gauge metal tabs, then it is for smaller engines, 1 light, 1 heavy metal tab for medium engines and 2 heavy tabs for the big engines/high compression. It's hard to tell what you are being sold today, whether new or rebuilt, but unless you have a low compression small engine, make sure it is really a heavy duty starter and not a cheaper, light weight rebuild.

HonestDave

Interesting. I just had the drive changed on my 65 442 starter, as it was kicking out, and noticed it had a heat shield on it. Just figured it was to protect the starter from the header heat. Maybe there was more to it. Glad I told the guy to leave it on.

z11375ss

Mr. Nasty provided this very nice diagram to fix you problem. It is easy and best of all cheap. I myself run a high torque mini starter. It sounds like a Mopar starting!

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...rt-remedy.html

nj_cutlass72

ok , during installation , I am trying to figure out which wire goes to which terminal... there are 3 wires and based on size of the clamp rings I was able to connect the battery wire and the yellow wire to the main bolt on solenoid.

so now I have a black wire and red wire left.. and there's a R terminal & S terminal, anyone can tell me which wire goes with R and the other with S?

thanks in advance

HonestDave

One of them backfeeds up from the R terminal on your solenoid, to the coil. Should be 2 wires on the positive side of the coil, if you still have a coil, that is. The other wire comes right off the harness to the S terminal. That one has to be correct to crank the starter over. I just did that with a couple of cars, but the wires are usually so faded that I just trace one. The R wire just feeds resistance, I think it's 8 volts, to the coil for when it's already running. The other coil wire feeds higher voltage to the coil to help it start, but only when it's cranking. Gotta go do the dishes. Let us know if you have any more questions.

don71

I'm not familiar with black and red wires in that location. I'm thinking somebodys been in there and changed something. That yellow were should'nt go to the large fitting, if thats what you said, it should go the the R terminal.

The factory wiring for these two were;

a larger (10g) purple wire that goes to the S terminal.

a smaller yellow wire that goes to the R terminal. The other end should go to the positive terminal on the coil. You'll need to verify this.

HonestDave

Like the man says, I wouldn't be surprised if someone had played with the wiring. You'll just have to make sure the one with the big end goes with the power wire, and trace at least one of the other two.
My 65 442 had so many splices in the wiring, and splices after the splices, I ripped the whole harness out last month, fuse panel and all, and pulled the one out of my f-85 parts car and re-installed it in the 442. Mickey Mouse had run rampant throughout my vehical. All the wrong colors were everywhere and changing colors several times while tracing.
I DON"T recommend you do the same. It can be time consuming !!

nj_cutlass72

I took a chance and installed Red with R, lol.. and mounted the starter and it didnt crank, so I took it off and then switched the places on the solenoid and then it cranked.

Did not get a chance to drive it around so we will see if replacing the starter only solves the issue of the car not starting at certain times.

HonestDave

Next thing I'd do is disconnect the amp, if you're still having trouble. See if the problem goes away. I find I cause a lot of my own problems inadvertently. I've got to the point where I try to put everything back to stock, or as simple as possible. Anything I see that smacks of non-OEM wiring, I rip it out (within reason of course). I won't have aftermarket stereos, alarms or anything that splices into the wiring. Too many issues have developed in my past.

CaptOharry

A late question,are there Headers on the car? I had the same problem changed out the Starter,Battery,Cables,Problem came back a few weeks later,installed a heat sheild on the Starter and never had the problem again.

nj_cutlass72

no headers, it's been pouring here so havent had the luck to test drive yet!

EDIT:

I didnt want to leave this post hanging, so replacing the starter for $50 from PepBoys took care of the problem. The car starts up like it's brand new!

What a Great feeling, im sure all the other advice will benefit me in the future and others during a search.

thanks!