Found a 69 today that might be up for sale. It's number 801 built for Tom burns. Anyone know anything about this car?
thanks

 

No but check here:
https://www.hurstolds.com/

And here:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...gistry-127218/

This page is old. I dont see that number listed.

http://hurstolds.oldsgmail.com/69hoinfo.htm

 

Is 801 the Demmer number or the dash plaque number? The registry lists the Demmer numbers. The dash plaque numbers were issued sequentially when (and if) the owner sent in the paperwork for the plaque and are unrelated to the Demmer numbers.

 

Dash plague number.

 

Better check with Kurt KArch as I have heard not all post cards were sent in. like about maybe about 60% of all the cars that were sold..

 

So can someone explain the Demmer 801 vs the dash plaque number?

As in how do you know the Demmer number. Is it in the VIN?

 

VIN doesn’t tell you anything other than one car was built before or after another car on the assembly line at Olds.

Looking at VIN sequencing it appeared they were building them spaced apart a little here and there as they loaded up trucks to take them to Demmer. Probably wanted to dribble them out to keep from building up on the Olds lots yet moving fast enough to keep Demmer busy. I’ve heard nothing about the logistics operations concerning the 69 H/O from anyone or anywhere. So can only speculate how they did it based on other Tier 1 vendor conversions.

Demmer number was the number on the receipt to Oldsmobile when the car was dropped off. It’s not really an official number of anything as far as sequencing. It’s just that as they were handling transfer paperwork it was on sequentially numbered pads. Had nothing to do with GM tracking or a car’s VIN. It was a Demmer thing so they could easily tell if a car went “missing” since it was on the numbered pads. This is traditionally the way to absolutely verify a particular car was converted to an H/O because if it had a Demmer number, there is documentation. And the Demmer number had no bearing on when the car got pulled into the building for conversion. Car with Demmer number 70 could have been converted that morning with Demmer car number 59 late that afternoon. Rando.

The Hurst plaque number was just the registration number Hurst Performance gave to the owner if they bothered to send in the registration card. The plaque could be applied anywhere or not at all. Most ended up on the dash woodgrain part. Some even on the glovebox which could very well have made it to another car. The Hurst plaque number was first come first served depending on when you mailed in the registration and is not a meaningful way of verifying an H/O as to the best of my knowledge, not everyone registered their car and no one has come up with any Hurst registration documentation that could be traced to a particular car’s VIN.

 

Another thing to consider is that there were likely very few cameo white with black bucket auto 69 442s built in Lansing between the H/O campaign dates on the body tags that weren’t destined for H/O conversion.

 

Thank you for all that information. 👍

 

The pick up and delivery tickets ( copies ) on my car...179

 

Thanks for that. I haven't looked at any of my "paperwork" in a million years. My mind is going away. My bad on the Demmer number being on the intake paperwork. Let me rephrase my screwup that at SOME point the car was assigned the Demmer number after the car was dropped off. 69442murph has the dropoff and send off receipts showing. Note the send off receipt shows the Demmer number circled on it next to the VIN. There's one more piece of paper to which is the Demmer final quality check and this is where the car was signed off on. This was where the pre-printed "Demmer Number" can be found.

Basically, if Kurt Karch has any paperwork with your VIN on it, that is verifiable proof your car is a 69 H/O.

Here's car #24's slip. The VIN is lower than mine (#43), yet mine was shipped out on 4/1. This one is dated 4/7. Regardless, this number has no bearing on the dash plaque number.

 

See if you can get a pic of that dash plaque, I'm going to say there is no way they made it up to 801 assigned dash plaques as you only received one if you sent in the specific dash plaque paperwork. I've never seen or heard of a dash plaque number higher than the 500's. I've seen people make their own based on the Demmer number or just completely fabricate a number.
The 'font' and style of the original dash plaques is usually easy to discern from a fabricated one. 801 has a higher likelihood of being the Demmer number if legit. Get the last 6 digits of the vin.

 

excellent point. No way over 800 owners sent in the registration card.

if it is the Demmer number, it’s by fat chance since I don’t think Kurt got that box. I don’t recall. But it would be a fake because the dash plaque had nothing to do with anything else.

 

Assisting the OP w/ updated information:

Finally got the vin on that 801 dash plaque car

344879m359262


anybody know anything about this car?
Thanks

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...5/#post1539435

 

Car VIN 359262 was Demmer car #320. It definitely has paperwork from Kurt Karch.

That's like a hair over the first third of the ones that were logged in at Demmer. Plaque 801 I think is wildly inaccurate. Unless they took their sweet-*** time mailing in the stuff and assuming 800 other owners mailed theirs in all in front of this car's. Never saw a dash plaque in the 700s let alone 800s.

Someone get a picture of that plaque. Maybe 301 at best? Just can't see 801.

Now, far be it from me to say, but I recall in the late 90s, there were SEVERAL 69 H/O gloveboxes listed on ebay from actual cars and some had dash plaques attached. What numbers and where they ultimately ended up is anyone's guess.

 

Be very WEARY of that car....
Per the below pic, if this is the VIN of the car... as in if this pic is the same as a vin pic for the car in question, it is a clone.....
Get a pic of the cowl tag... compare it to the one below, this cowl tag is not correct for a 1969 H/O yet was on a M359262 VIN clone...
If you are familiar with the ways VIN's are stamped and the fonts used. etc, you can surmize by looking at the VIN pic it is not correct.
This one pictured also had a "dash plaque" for.... not 801 Tom Burns..... but......802 Tom Burns...

 

I really love that Dymo Labelmaker VIN tag...

 

Hahaha. It has a green bench seat in it (942). WTF? They should be 930 black strato buckets. Also, why the 34487 on the cowl tag? Should be a 36 Cutlass code.

Wow, that is one messed up car. Wonder whatever happened to the REAL car?

 

if you look closely, that is not a LAN Lansing cowl tag, think its BL referring to Linden.... had to look that up.
Kurt is aware of the original car, long gone, detroyed, fire, deteriorated, etc..... Car in my photo's is a "Partscaster"... using a guitar term there... cobbled together... again, not sure if it is the same as the O.P. car in question...

Here is a pic of the 'boxed' rear lower control arm from my example for your enjoyment.....

 

Wow. Just...wow. I'd say "BOTCHED" instead of "BOXED" LCA.

 

A question, stemming from curiousity, did the person contemplating selling this car disclose its actual heritage?

 

This is interesting. I saw an H/O clone, same year, at a car auction local to me 2.5 years ago. I took pictures of the vin and cowl and other things, and the cowl tag was from Fremont, with the same botched 50 50 paint codes.

That's two cars with a faked VIN to what would be a correct number, and a cowl tag faked to the correct paint code, yet the plant code on the cowl tag is left untouched. I'm thinking they fabricate the faked vin, and modify the cowl tag to fit the paint and never have a correct cowl tag from the original car. The VIN may be fabricated to match a 455 VIN derivative already there on the block as well. I guess punching in Lansing would look too faked.

 

Yep, this is why I'm not a fan of 'clones'... to each your own, thats your own gig, but I won't help out with any info for someone trying to build a clone. First, why would I want to dilute the uniqueness of my own car. But more importantly, even with the best intentions, the car will eventually get sold and possibly pass thru an auction or two and down the line its provenance will get lost. I know.... "buyer beware" and all... and luckily people can reach out to individuals or Forums to seek assistance..

Here's another treat off the cloned car..... again, do not know if this is the same vehicle the O.P. was inquiring about. If you are familiar with how the spoiler attaches, this will make you cringe... even if you are not, I think it should cause a double take...

 

This among other threads is why I love this site. So many knowledgeable people here. I love it.

Clones suck when represented as real. I hope this "801" car wasn't sold as real.

Green bench seat 69 Hurst Olds would be Super rare!
🤔🤣😅

 

There's a dude cloning a 72 and proud of it, posting on all the facebook pages. He wanted to know where to put the H/O emblem on the trunk, since it has been seen in two places. I told him either was fine since his was a clone. He mouthed off at me, saying I didn't get it that he was trying to stay as close to the car as possible. I lost patience and told him no one wanted him making a clone; it's just that everyone is too polite to say so. Hopefully, he'll stay gone.

 

car

 

That should buff out.

 

would all 68/69 ho's have EMBLEM delete in there body panels?...So if you dig deep enough and not see any punched out holes that were filled in.. would that confirm an original HO car?..just curious if that was the case back then when cars were sent to Demmer

 

Yes. No holes were punched for emblems on the front fenders or the trunklid. Obviously if you had to use used fenders to repair a car and welded up the holes and smoothed them out so they appeared they were never there, that's still possible. So just because a car has filled in holes on the fenders/trunklid does not necessarily mean the car is not an H/O. Just have to be more investigative to find other factors. Still, nothing beats paperwork if the VIN isn't on the "list".

 

Also note that factory replacement fenders were not punched for emblems, so lack of any evidence of welding does not "prove" that the car is real.

 

Although it's no guarantee after 55 years, one thing you can easily check for lack of holes and that's the back of the front nose tooth. Every GM over the counter new tooth I've ever seen came with 2 holes pre-punched minimum in the center for whichever emblem you were using, whether it be rocket, S, or a bent 4. If you had a 442, you'd have to drill out the other holes as there were bosses pre-made into the back of the tooth. H/Os had none of those holes punched. This doesn't mean all GM replacement tooth extensions had the 2 holes as I've never seen all of them, but nobody's ever had a new one without the holes that I've laid eyes on. Doesn't mean the car's an H/O for sure if it doesn't have any tooth holes, but likely the tooth came from one.

Issue is, just about anything on an H/O can be added or attempted to be faked on a non-H/O car. Be mindful of the build dates and it can be narrowed down, but again, fakers try anything in the book to fool people. It's still hard to fake an H/O completely. Unfortunately, people still try.

If it's not on the VIN "list", nothing proves the car is real except genuine paperwork. Super-fat chance you'd ever find a complete build sheet, but a broadcast card might be available, along with an outside chance of a sales order/dealer paperwork.

 

Is this definitely the case for the deck lid on '68 cars?

 

I dunno on 68. Never had one. Maybe one of the 68 owners can chime in on that. They probably did have holes for the lower lid trim piece that said Oldsmobile, but if the Hurst emblem was stuck on with tape, then it likely didn't have any model name holes.

 

Right now about to end on Bringatrailer is a 69 H/O .. it’s been determined to have many shall we say creative enhancements of parts to look like they are correct. Several people that know the cars have spoken on the cars issues. It’s a beautiful car and it may well be a real HO but definitely missing correct parts and parts manipulated. The sale will reflect the views experts who spoke out on that forum. Thats a good thing. Whoever buys it will have a beautiful restored car but will also know it’s not correct so you’re not paying the correct HO price.

 

Some knucklehead is out 82+K on that one. SMDH. Must have a nest egg to get rid of just buying someone else's lies.

 

It surely is on 72s.