I am learning that it is not very easy to find a 442 project car, so I am opening up more possibilities.
Is it difficult to install a 455 drivetrain (engine & trans) into a car that came with the 350? In particular I will be looking at the 1971 Cutlass.
Please let me know what modifications would be involved.

 

I'm sure Joe Padovano will chime in with his excellent detailed list of tasks, but, ASSuming that you have a complete 455 drivetrain from an A-body, the instructions read:
"Unbolt old parts. Bolt in new parts."

The only non-drivetrain part that I can think of that might need to be changed (other than the radiator, which I see as an engine part) is the fuel line.

- Eric

 

Do you have a engine hoist? That will be a must . Depending on the year i have found it harder to reach the later a bodys with the cheaper smaller hoist's . If you pull trans and engine at once keep yoke in to keep floor clean . Raise front of car to get trans to angle down and lift out better . I did my last one by myself but another set of hands would have been nice

 

IMO 'drivetrain' is a good description, but I think it's important to break down and name the components that will also need to be changed over...like trans cooling lines, prop shaft, accelerator kick down and linkage, repositioning of trans cross member, engine mounts..... The use of the word drivetrain can mean different things to different people, which is why I believe it's a good idea to think this process out and list components rather than speak generically about it and hope someone thinks the same way we do?? IDK if the OP has any experience with these cars or swaps, so just saying.

A 350 can work well with a 2 row rad and smaller trans cooler, but installing a 455 will need better cooling and the trans lines and coolers are in different places on the 3 row and 4 row rad, so different trans lines unless flex line adapters used. Nothing said about whether the 71 Cutlass has HD cooling or AC either which would be a 3 row core. Just my opinion but I don't see the rad as an engine part any more than I see the power steering pump or alternator as an engine part. The only thing they really have in common is being attached to the engine to provide ancillary services for the engine or car options.

Depending on what car the donor 455 came (A body? B Body?) from it might have a long or short tail shaft on the trans, or the wrong length prop shaft.

It's all good in the long run if the transplant works with no headaches, but always nice to know what's involved before taking on the project.

 

I'll tell you one modification that is NOT involved. Do not get "455" motor mounts. Use the Anchor 2261 motor mounts that match your frame mounts. Read this thread. The process is the same for your 350 to 455 swap as for the 330 to 425 swap in the thread.

 

So, just curious why Anchor lists the 2261 for the 330, 350, 403 and 425 but not the 455? They list the 2328 for 455's?? Maybe you could help me understand the difference??

Personally, I would change the motor mounts just on principle when doing an engine swap as the part is really not that expensive.

 

First, Anchor only cares about OEM applications, not engine swaps. Second, as with many vendor catalogs, they are flat wrong. For example, the 68 H/O with a 455 used the 2261 motor mounts. Every factory 403 car (except Trans Ams) used the 2328 motor mounts.

As we've pointed out here time and time (and time and time and time) again, the motor mounts need to match the FRAME MOUNTS, not the block.

 

Doesn't promote a lot of buyer confidence does it?

 

Hopefully it promotes one understanding the need to research what you need yourself before asking some pre-pubescent counter person what you need. All auto parts stores (both online and brick and mortar) use the same computerized parts catalogs, and there are frequently errors in them. A classic example is Advance Auto, who claims they have no listing for the trans filter for the 200-4R in my 84 Custom Cruiser. I tell them to dig out the paper Fram catalog, find the application, then cross that to the brand they have in stock. Surprise, they really DO have the filter in the store.

Back on the topic of Olds motor mounts, many, if not most, vendors seem to think that the 68 cars use the same mounts as the 69-72 cars. They do not, at least as far as the BBO is concerned. Of course, I see ebay ads all the time selling the 2262/2263 mounts (the ones with the threaded studs) and claiming that they fit full size AND 442.

Then there's the ebay vendor with the Chinesium stainless headers that magically fit both BBO and SBO...

 

I am learning a lot from your answers. I did not know you could get HD cooling with a std Cutlass. I was not considering the radiator part of the drivetrain. What drivetrain means to me is the block with all of the belt-driven components, heads, carb, distributor, oil pan, manifolds, valve covers, all internal components to the aforementioned parts, and transmission ending at the driveshaft seal.
Were there any other cars other than a Cutlass that was a A-frame? And from what I'm reading the B-frame cars had a shorter transmission housing, is this correct?
What is involved with re-positioning the trans cross member?

 

Yep, that's why I am asking before I plunge into a project!

 

Ah Ha.

I see all of those things as "engine parts."

So, you see, we seem to have a failure to communicate...



So, you'll need a TH400 transmission yoke or a 442 / Turnpike Cruiser driveshaft, a 3- or 4-row radiator, a TH400 kickdown switch and bracket if you're putting in a TH400, TH400 cooling lines and vacuum modulator line, a 4-row top retainer plate if going to a 4-row radiator, new emergency brake cables if relocating the crossmember, and that's all I can think of...

What'd I forget, folks?



A-body: Chevelle, SS, LeMans, GTO, F-85, Cutlass, 442, Vista Cruiser, Skylark, GS.
B-body: Impala, Caprice, Catalina, Grand Am, 88, [not sure about which Buicks are B or C]
C-body: 98, [not sure about Buicks and Pontiacs]
E-body: Toronado, Riviera, Eldorado (depending on the year, I believe)
X-body: Chevy II, Nova, Ventura, Ωmega, Apollo



Nope. You got it backwards. B-bodies are longer and had the longer tail transmissions.



You unbolt it from the front holes and bolt it into the rear holes.

- Eric

 

A body Cutlass's and 442's use the short tailshaft trans. Larger models use the long tail. The frame on your Cutlass should have multiple holes already in it for the cross member. Just unbolt it and move it where you need it. I just run a 2 core aluminum radiator from ebay with my 455 and she ran 180 all day yesterday @ 90 degrees out. (As always). No need to change the mounts or cover. If you are using the turbo 350, just bolt the engine in using the same motor and frame mounts. Going with the Turbo 400, then you will need to change the driveshaft, yolk, and transmission lines. And ad a different kickdown method whether it be factory or aftermarket. The 400 has an electric kickdown instead of a cable. Hope that helps. I am sure there will be more to be added.

 

Exactly the opposite. We got the beginnings of an understanding of how we communicate differently.

May I suggest you also invest in a 1971 Chassis Service Manual and 1971 Cutlass Assembly Manual? Both of them are like 'Bibles' to these cars and show an incredible amount of factory details. There is a section that addresses your question about engine/transmission and transmission cross brace /holes with a really nice frame layout. I realize you can choose to get them electronically, but I've found that an OEM CSM has better images than reproductions. I can also take a manual with me to the garage for reference when I need it. Note: the OEM manuals also have color electrical schematics whereas not all electronic scanned copies do.

Take your build one step at a time and think it through. There are plenty of folks on this site who will step up to the plate with many years of experience and good suggestions. If you're shy about asking a question on the forum you can always use private messaging.

Not to mention the interchangeable chevy wiring looms for the engine bay... jk. Ok, I'm good with what you explained. So, in your opinion changing the engine mounts would not really be necessary unless they show any signs of wear?? I guess that makes sense - if it ain't broke, it don't need fixin.

 

I, on the other hand, though I find the paper manual indispensable, look at the paper manual in the house, then print out the relevant pages from the electronic version and bring them out to the garage, where I can get them all greasy and write on them, and then when I'm done, throw them out, and still have a nice, clean manual.

- Eric

 

So when I changed my TH350 to a TH400 I didnt change the transmission cooling lines. What's the difference? I had some bending to do around the headers but figured that was due to the headers.

Another thing you'll need is a 1inch spacer between the alternator bracket and the power steering bracket. Unless you have the universal sbo-bbo alternator bracket.

 

The trans cooler lines should be the same for a TH350 and TH400.

A 1971 Cutlass should still have the alternator bracket that doesn't bolt to the PS pump bracket. I just stripped a 71 Cutlass parts car last week, with a 350 4bbl, and the bracket is "universal" (well, so long as you have A/C).

 

By the way, for those still wondering about GM car and truck platforms, see this thread:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...platforms.html

 

IF it has HD cooling or AC with a 3 row rad, the 400 trans lines should be the same. Non AC 350 cars without AC have shorter lines bent differently to fit the location of the smaller trans cooler bungs on the 2 core rad.

All non AC equipped cars have alt brackets on the PS, whereas AC cars have them on the DS. So there is NO universal bracket; there are 2 distinct brackets: AC and Non AC which bolt to different locations. This also affects the use of water pumps, water pump pulleys and belts.

 

The OP's question was about the transmission end of the lines, as in swapping a TH350 for a TH400. The lines are the same as far as that is concerned.

Actually, non-A/C 307s also have the alternator on the driver's side

"Universal" (as used, in quotes) refers to the deck height, not the car installation. Again, the post to which my comment referred was talking about the need for a spacer between the PS pump bracket and the alternator bracket when converting to a BBO. This spacer is not necessary if one has the "universal" alternator bracket (his term, not mine) that is deck height-agnostic. 1972-later A/C alternator brackets DO bolt to the PS pump bracket and DO need such a spacer. The OP has a 1971 Cutlass, so again, he does not need the spacer.

 

My bad, I forgot we were swapping in an asphalt ripping 307

Your previous explanation did not come close to explaining this.

This is likely not helping the OP with his project. I suggest we move on.

 

I think as long as you are some what mechanically incline you can swap it over pretty easy . Now just do your research because there will be some things different in the swap as mentioned above .

Just make sure you seat the torque converter if it happens to be pulled out by mistake even pros make this mistake when rushing the job

 

Yeah guys, as I mentioned above I was including all of the belt-driven accessories when I say "drivetrain". I also never asked about a 307.

What I do understand is that if the alternator & bracket does not come with the 455 that I will have to get the correct one so I appreciate that information.

oldstata: Sounds like I should check everything out, but will take extra care making sure the converter is on properly. I am not familiar with this, does it fit over something and that's why it doesn't usually seat correctly?

 

You'll find them bolted to your current 350 motor.

 

In theory when pulling the motor you disconnect the converter from the fly wheel and it shouldn't pull out with the motor . With that said some times they tend to hang on and pull just a bit out . The torque converter drops down (seats ) on the transmission shaft where it transfers power through the trans
Sorry I am not the best at explaining this procedure

 

What Joe said ^^.

Also, you said the 71 Cutlass Cutlass was a 'base'? All Cutlass models could be ordered with AC, so it might have the upgraded water pump and the power steering pulley you could also swap across to the 455 if those components are missing on the 455. 1971 350 and 455's shared many of the same bolt on components, which Joe said. The water pumps and pulleys could be different though depending on whether the car was AC equipped or not. That would include the crank pulley too.

Did you find out what year the 455/400 you're looking to swap in is? The info on the engine will be on the engine stamping pad for sure and will also tell you what factory the engine was produced for as well as the last 6 digits of the donor cars VIN (not significant - just trivia). eg: 31M starting out the stamping will me Olds, 71, Lansing......All 455 blocks are cast as 396021F (on the ledge where the temp sender is). If the heads are original that will also give a clue as to it's build year. The 455 transmission should have a tag riveted to the right side of the case. (eg 71 - OJ - 1234)

Reason I ask about the model year on the engine is some 455's are more desirable than others.

 

If you do use the brackets from the 350, you also need to use the pulleys and water pump from the 350 as a matched set. Olds used three different length water pumps and the brackets and pulleys vary, depending on the pump length.

 

I'm afraid I gave the wrong impression. I neither have a Cutlass or a 455 yet, but will active start searching soon. I was just trying to find out if I go this direction how much work I can expect.
Thanks to everyone for the helpful information! It sounds like something I can surely handle.
I did know about the casting number, and not to get 'J' heads.
Allan, would you mind explaining which 455's are more desirable and why?

 

Replied via PM.

If you're looking for a BBO A body, might be an idea to search 70/71 442's. They came standard with a 455, unlike the 70/71/72 Cutlass, Cutlass S or Cutlass Supremes which had engine choices ranging from 350 or 455. Sort of kill 2 birds with one stone? I realize the big issue with finding a 442 is everyone and their dog wants top $$$ for it even if it isn't in the best condition.