real57vetteguy

I am doing a frame off on a 1965 442, the problem I am having is with the wheel/tire clearance, I would like to correct this problem while its apart. I am running a 18x8 wheel in the front, and hotchkiss 2" lowering springs. I am having clearance issues on the outer fender lip, I have a lot of clearance to the inside even with the wheel turned sharp, I cannot change back spacing on the wheel. I would like to move the wheel inwards about 1 inch. Any Ideas?????

Thanks

TripDeuces

You can't physically change the position of the wheel unless you change the backspacing or the spindle offset. I'm not aware of anybody making a spindle that is biased toward the center line of the car. In fact most big brake or lowering spindles actually move the center line outward slightly or not at all. Only other way is to change the control arm geometry but I'm unaware of anyone making shorter control arms either. Maybe others will chime in.

Could also go with coil overs to raise it back up a bit.

oldcutlass

I don't believe there is a way to get your wheels inward 1 inch without removing metal from the either the wheel or the front hub. I don't know if I would go this route.
You can possibly send them off and have them reassembled with the proper backspacing, with some wheels this may be possible.



You can roll or trim the wheel well lip on the fender well.

joe_padavano

Yeah. Buy wheels with the correct offset for your application. I'm sure that's not the answer you wanted to hear, however.

real57vetteguy

I, and my Tire supplier are unaware of any wheel manufacturer short of having custom wheels made that can supply a correct backspacing to run 9.5 in the rear and 8's in the front. If no one makes an A arm/control arm to achieve this then we will cut the A arms and take an inch out. Before that comment stirs up all sorts of mess, It has been done multiple times by a local Rod shop/Fab shop with no alignment issues what so ever. I just wanted to know if there was a shelf product made before we fab a set.

oldcutlass

It would probably be cheaper to have a set of wheels made?? The A arms are not the only thing that will need to be modified.

real57vetteguy

Custom wheels = 3200.00
Cutting control arms = free
Tie rod end replacement or modification cant be more than 400.00
Am I missing something?

2blu442

That all depends on the look that you want. The 8" wide tread will fit on a factory 7" wide wheel. With steel you can have the center cut out of a 6" or 7" wheel and welded into a blank that's wide enough for the 9.5" tires in the rear. At the same time you can make the offset whatever you want. You can then paint or chrome plate the steel wheels.

With aluminum you'll have to find something off the shelf that will fit. I don't know enough about front end geometry to modify parts. I would first evaluate selling the wheels you have and purchasing ones with the offset you need. If you decide to explore that possibility look for wheels that will fit your year of Chevelle as they're likely to fit and I expect more often listed under the Chevelle heading than Cutlass/442.

Whatever you decide to do please keep us posted. Seeing what others do with their cars can help members evaulate options for their own projects. John

joe_padavano

If that's true, I'm in the wrong line of work.

You've already made your mind up, so I'm wondering why you even asked the question, but in any case consider the following for safety reasons if nothing else:

1) The factory control arms are tapered. You can't simply section a part out of the middle and weld them back together. At a minimum you need to reform or fabricate the "channel" sections at the edges to maintain proper stiffness. That's a lot of free labor to do it correctly, including time on a milling machine and fabrication of proper steel plates. Are you planning to have the welds inspected (dye pen or magnaflux)?

2) Shortening the arms changes the effective spring rate. You'll need different (softer) front springs.

3) You are aware of the tie rod issue, but it's not as simple as cutting the tie rod ends or the sleeve. Since the arms are not parallel, changing the width requires someone to properly lay out the suspension geometry to get the correct tie rod length to avoid bump steer, or at a minimum, be sure the shop uses a bump steer gauge to properly select the tie rod length.

real57vetteguy

Evidently you havent priced a set of custom built aluminum wheels!

I have not made my mind up, the fact that I stated that the backspacing could not be changed was ignored, I asked the question to see if anyone has moved their wheel inwards, this is a common practice in the high end custom Rod builder profession. I was wondering if there was an off the shelf product to achieve this, obviously not! So I contacted a very reputable high end Rod builder that stated they did several A body cars where they moved the ball joint position by cutting A arms/control arms. There are several ways to do this.

1) you can buy fully adjustible uppers where the ball joint position can be moved, the lower has options, i would probably opt for welding the existing holes closed, moving the ball joint hole inwards and trimming the outer edge of the arm, if the stock upper were to be used then you trim the frame and rebrace it, extend the ball joint landing weld and redrill, seeing that the fabricator doing the work welded nuclear blowline for 20 years which had to weekly pass a 180 degree double bend X-ray test I dont think I have to have his welds tested!

2) you do not modify the arm before the spring cup, there is no need to change anything with the springs

3) fully adjustible race tie rod ends, then let the alignmennt shop have at it!

Its only metal, man made man manipulated. Its not rocket science. High end Rod shops have been doing much more extreme projects than this for years. If moving a piece of metal scared you maybe you should take up wood working! hahahah I am just joking, I do appreciate your input and advice!

joe_padavano

And again, changing the length of the arms and/or the location of the pickup points on the frame will change the fundamental suspension geometry. The arms are not parallel and neither are the pivot axes parallel, so changes as you have suggested make non-obvious changes to roll center. If all you care about is looks, have at it. If you plan to actually drive the car on those expensive wheels and tires, I suggest doing some actual suspension design. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the way you've described what you plan to do so far doesn't give the impression that all these factors have been considered and planned out.

And again, a statement like that indicates to me that the person saying it doesn't understand how the suspension actually works. Changing the length of the arms outboard of the spring ABSOLUTELY changes the effective spring rate. The spring rate at the wheel is a function of the rate of the bare spring times the ratio of the ball joint-to-pivot distance over the spring centerline-to-pivot distance. Changing the arms on either side of the spring changes this ratio and thus the effective spring rate. Again, if the reason for all this work is to make the car handle (as opposed to just having the car on display) then this needs to be considered.

And again, unless the alignment shop understands custom suspension design and has a bump steer gauge (and knows how to use it), all the adjustment in the world is worthless.

Note that we haven't even touched on determining the scrub radius yet...

As I said above, I'm not arguing that this can or can't be done. Obviously it can be done. Your assertion that it's "free" is what I'm debating. Buying new adjustable control arms and tie rod ends is not "free". Spending the time to pick the correct pivot points and steering linkage geometry to make the car handle is not "free". I still contend that wheels with the correct offset will be far cheaper in the long run.

real57vetteguy

As I said above, I'm not arguing that this can or can't be done. Obviously it can be done. Your assertion that it's "free" is what I'm debating. Buying new adjustable control arms and tie rod ends is not "free". Spending the time to pick the correct pivot points and steering linkage geometry to make the car handle is not "free". I still contend that wheels with the correct offset will be far cheaper in the long run.[/QUOTE]

My comment reads exactly as this "Cutting control arms = free",

If I so opt to cut, weld, modify the control arms it will not cost anything to do so. I dont see how you can debate that. I never stated anywhere that the entire project would be free, did I? I found the adjustible uppers after I was considering modifying the stock arms and after I made the statement, another option if offset rotors, and rolling the fender lip!

Rickman48

I, for one, would really like to see a picture of a $1600 wheel!
[that was $3200 for a pair, right?]

real57vetteguy

I called two companies about making wheels both were about 800 per wheel

real57vetteguy

check out some of the wheels made by the following companies:
Fikse Forgeline NewGen Rushforth

therobski

There is maybe an alternative that I can provide you alot of info on. On my 67 442 "tribute car" I have 235x70 15 's on GM 15x7 rims in the front. I like the way it looks filling the wheel house with one inch drop front springs. In addition I up graded the front drum set up to 72 disk on the original a body upper and lower control arms and spindles. Adding later model front disk brakes on these older A-bodys also brings the wheel out 5/8 of an inch on each side. Yes indeed if I make a sharp turn or have a load of passengers the understeer will cause the tires to rub-hit the outer wheel lip. That said on my current "64 post Rust Bucket" pro touring build I installed all new, a complete B-spindle/control arm upgrade which is supposed take the under-steer out of the equation on these older A-bodys. The first pic shows the 67 with the original A-body a-arms and later 72 disk brakes the other is the 64 which shows the Hotchkis B-spindle upper and lower control arms with huge IROC-Z (1-LE package rotors) with Caprice Police car calipers.DSCN2130.jpgIMG_0775.jpg
IMG_1134.jpg
IMG_1135.jpg
IMG_1136.jpg
IMG_1138.jpg

TripDeuces

I like that B body set up. Trying to find the spindles for a decent price is killing me though.

therobski

I was re-reading the threads on this subject and may add-that if you install the B-body spindles-(I took mine of a 91 Buick Estate wagon) your a-body a-arm ball joints will not work! The taper on the ball joints are different, I believe the taper is on inch per foot on a-body ball joints and 1 and a half inches per foot on the b-body. However there are companies out there that will machine the B-body ball joints to work with B-body control arms, but since I was going the pro-touring route and may get involved with some auto cross racing a complete Hotchkis suspension is this was the way I chose to go.

therobski

Correction, they will machine the a-body ball joints to work with B-body spindles.

therobski

Tripdueces-I paid $45.00 for the B-spindles, They cut the control arms off the car and I removed everything else. This set is somewhat involved locating all the right parts but much less $$$$$$$ than buying the high end aftermarket.

oldcutlass

I bet after all is said and done it would be less expensive to just order 2 wheels that have the correct back spacing!!

real57vetteguy

Ok, go find me a manufacturer that will build me a set of aluminum wheels to meet the backspacing needed for the front and rear at a reasonable price and I WILL BUY THEM TODAY.

gearheads78

Exactly what wheels are you trying to run? Most of the billet wheel companies have entry level lines that don't use as much machine work but are still 100% custom in regards to offset. Centerline also makes some wheels that are custom at not so much more than a cast wheel.

The suspension geometry will be terrible if you just shorten the control arms.

The correct way to fix this is the right wheel period. Show us the wheel look you are going for.

real57vetteguy

100_2641.jpg

gearheads78

Great looking car. One option is these in a 18 x 7 and sell the 338's

http://centerlinewheels.com/wheels_d...121&sw_id=1033

or Billet Specialties street smart line at only $450.00 pre wheel. Still not cheap but you should be able to get a chunk back on the 338's

one other option mid priced

http://centerlinewheels.com/wheel_de...ehicle&data=51

real57vetteguy

I'm very picky when it comes to wheels, If I end up doing anything with wheels it will be for these belo w in the smoked titanium finish, but I highly doubt I will change the wheels. A little less tire, adjustible upper, and rolling the lip should work fine, also Global west has their engineering dept working on a offset brake setup that might help.

http://www.rushforthwheels.com/view/Super%20Spoke#

gearheads78

I 110% agree and thats why I spent close to $4000.00 on wheels and tires for my old 66. If you are building a car that nice $2000.00 more to not have to run cast one offset fits all heavy Chinese wheels is worth it. A nice driver is one thing but if you are building a nice pro-touring type car I would not compromise suspension design just to make the wrong wheels fit the car.

therobski

Is your front end stock? Drum brakes? Your doing a frame off-mention some of your performance goals. Yes, my 67 stops safely at high speeds now with the front disk brakes and all, but I am still running a stock front end ( except for the 1 inch drop springs) and steering box. All the parts are new but the car still handles like a 67 should, turn hard feels like the car will tip over. You will almost will spend as much on wheels as I did on the front end on the 64 pro touring build. I understand if your hung up on the wheels. I'm hung up on the base model look-stealth. Didn't you mention on another thread or Olds site you were going to build a 500HP BB? Just offering options

real57vetteguy

Im not hung up on wheels, I have a slight clearance issue but have found a resolution. I'm sticking with the wheels I have. I am running a 2" lowering spring and will run an adjustable upper so that I don't have to shim anything. I am going to conveRt to front disc brakes. I am currently looking for a 455 and will be doing a 200r4 conversion

real57vetteguy

A little more progress today!

2011-11-09_19-51-34_168.jpg

gearheads78

If you clearance issue is slight you might look it to see if you have enough material to machine the pad down a little. Also not all tires are created equal. You might be able to find a tire in the same size with a more rounded shoulder and gain some clearance.

real57vetteguy

Going from a 245/45/18 to a 225/45/18 will help, the adjustable upper control arms will help seeing that the 2" lowering spring moved the wheel out slightly at the top and rolling the fender lip will also help, between all three I should have planty of clearance!

real57vetteguy

Its been a while since this topic was discussed, but the front fenders are on and the issue is solved. I am running the same wheels and tires, I converted to disc up front using a "the right stuff detailing" conversion which actually moves the wheels outwards 3/8, so in theory I should be in worse shape, I used a hotchkiss lower A arm, and a fully adjustable SPC upper control arm. After re assembly I have LOTS of clearence!!!!

1965cutlassragtop

the adjustable uppers were a great choice. i was just able to get the alignment where it needed to be with my non-adjustable tubular upper, much more room to play with adjustables.

zippy

reading old threads for suspension ideas and was going to suggest eastwoods lip rolling kit. glad it all worked out!

ent72olds

i know this thread is a little old, but reading through it, the spot where you say,"this isn't rocket science...", quite funny....those of us who know Joe P., well....he literally is a rocket scientist! Sorry Joe, I couldn't resist! If I am not mistaken, he worked for NASA!
By the way, back on topic, glad you got it figured out! Your car is coming out awesome!

joe_padavano

Nope. I did work on some shuttle missions, but as a contractor working the payloads. Frankly, I'll take the Air Force as a customer over NASA any day.

real57vetteguy

Thanks, its been a world of fabrication, late nights and dreams, but its coming together!

Oldmofogo

Doesnt sound logical but aftermarket parts can change a lot of things