69convertible

I wonder if my extended warranty I bought in 69 will be honored?? but seriously any thoughts on what should be done, if anything?



GM-Chrysler merger on table

UPDATED: 2008-12-05
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS




DETROIT -- General Motors and Chrysler said yesterday they would be open to a merger if the U.S. government mandated it as a condition for providing the emergency financing they say is needed to allow them to survive into 2009.
GM CEO Rick Wagoner and Chrysler CEO Bob Nardelli were testifying at a U.S. Senate Banking Committee hearing held to consider a request for US$34 billion in aid from Detroit's three automakers. Analysts have said if such a merger occurred, it would probably slash tens of thousands of U.S. jobs as a combined Chrysler-GM cut overlapping factories and headquarter operations.

KeithA0000

How about the gov't taking on the pension load from the big three? With that elephant off their backs, they should be able to sink or swim on viability.

Olds64

Let them die! It was bad enough that the government bailed out the financial industry. Now the auto industry wants a bailout? Who is going to be next, the technology industry?

"Dude, you're getting a free check!"

I will NEVER buy another domestic car unless it is a classic Olds.

Jamesbo

X2

I really didn't want to put a dog in this fight but let's examine some facts;

1] The ratio of GM retirees to employees is 2.5/1

2] GM spends $17,000,000/yr. on Viagra alone

3] GM pays $65/hr. to a worker to clean toilets and/or cut the grass

4] GM's work force is smaller than many companies like McDonalds, Target, IBM, Kroger

5] The "Job Banks" pay 3,600 people to do .......Absolutely Nothing


Although I feel sorry for anyone who will loose their job,They brought it on themselves. Asking taxpayers making $20-25/hr. to bail out auto workers making 3 x as much doesn't seem right.

KeithA0000

I know how you feel; we're doing the same stuff up here in Canada. However, if we let these businesses die, it will directly shrink the North American economy, meaning even more layoffs and more bad times for all. Seems to me that companies that sell many thousands of cars per day should be made to work profitably somehow.
Lose the corporate jets? Cap executive bonuses? Other stuff too?

Jamesbo

With all due respect

Getting rid of GM's Corporate Jets would be like throwing deck chairs off the Titanic. It's not the problem.

From where I sit they're already gone.

Any government "Bail out" is going to have some stings attached. So guess who is going to be running things and making major decisions?

If you like your Post office you're gonna love your new GM car.

Cutlass69S

HA!!

That's what they get for shutting down the most comfortable and prestigious car line in the WORLD! The OLDSMOBILE!

But seriously, maybe if they wouldn't spend millions making overpriced cars consumers can't afford, they wouldn't need a bailout!

A brand new car in 1970 with all available options would only cost you about $7,000, now they can cost you as much as $47,000. So every year a car cost approximately $1,000 a year more, do you get a raise of that much a year, I sure as hell don't! This predicament was inevitable. Now we have to bail them out after they profited like oil companies? I say liquidate all the automakers into one corporation and put the Rocket back in to production!!!!!

Oilbrnr

Isn't the UAW a wonderful thing!?! Looks like they are about to reap the seeds that they have been sowing for too long.

KeithA0000

I didn't want to say it out loud, but certainly, inflated salaries caused by union action have skewed things big time. Perhaps part of the bail-out could enforce county-wide average salaries on the automakers for similar types of work.
As for the price of a car, I think the logic is incorrect. The example cited was that a car in 1970 cost 7k and a similar car now costs 47k. Using the same ratio, a house that cost 23k in 1970 should cost 150k now. Well, that's about right here where I live. Perhaps they were way overpriced in 1970 too; that's possible. Of course, their market share was way bigger back then...

Jamesbo

To continue the Titanic methaphor, IMHO It's o-v-e-r

Olds64

I agree 100%.

Too bad GM didn't keep the EV1 alive. I bet they are kicking themselves for that.

74 Omega

This would help get things going in the right direction
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

I don't agree that the CEO's should make all that money for having failling companies, but IMHO it is also the UAW at fault.

68conv455

The government's logic just kills me.

If GM and Chrysler are too big to fail, then, wouldn't a combined GM/Chr be too big to fail?

If GM and Chrysler are bleeding too much money on pensions, then, wouldn't the combined GM/Chr bleed too much on pensions?

If workers are making $60/hr., wouldn't they still make $60/hr?

If they are making crappy cars we don't want, wouldn't they still make crappy cars we don't want?

My point is, there needs to be a fundamental change for them to get to profitability. I doubt the government has the insight to tell them what those changes need to be to get them to profitability. I forsee the government giving them money and then forcing them to make crappy microcars that Al Gore likes but no one wants, then they will tell us the GM/Chr company is too big to fail and give them more money. After all, the government already messed up social security, medicare, Fanny, Freddy, the bank bailout, etc. etc. etc.
The only winners are union employees that make $60/hr. then bring free viagra home to their lady.

daves62

maybe the gov should give us the tax payers a check to buy a American car and let us decide which one of the big three survives instead of just writing them checks with are money

geckonz08

Yep you guys are in the cr%* big time --My guess is that,.in subtle and less so bureaucratic ways, you ,the taxpayer will be paying an awful lotta tax over n above what you pay now going into the forseeable future .
The $ have to come from somewhere

Having the world`s largest economy ofcourse is rapidly affecting us all .
It`s getting tough here now too --at this point mainly retail n construction


I hope someone is making the right moves --or maybe that should be -- the least harmful moves
mike

380 Racer

Give 'em a friggin LOAN not a bailout. The problems are both with the CEOs and the union. No man is worth $40 M a year.

bjtstarfire

heck if we do a bail out and require all 3 to merge they can rename themselves AMC, This time it it would be owned buy the people (the ones that pay taxes).

Sad, but a part of me really loves everything American and I hope they can some how return to some level of soundness. Perhaps Lee I. can educate them on how to get going again. If not I guess we can get someone from Japan that is a student of Demming to teach us the basics - talk about full circle.

Eric Anderson

Wow what a can o worms here!
I agree let them cut the overhead scale back and fix their own mess. As for the UAW members who refuse to make any concessions they should realize less of something is better than all of nothing. And for the feds who plead the case that they are too big to fail, they are obviously also too big to succeed, just MHO.

easytobedead

x2.sad really they have done nothing for us no breaks nothing but they want a big fat check from us?Bring back the olds then maybe ......

easytobedead

An some one tell me how the hell did they live out the
Great Depression?

but they cant live through a recession?

citcapp

Bailing out the big three is all about saving jobs not saving the companies. The american middle class worker is the only one worth saving in this mess we still pay the majority of the taxes in this country. Something we have to do no matter how it smells, and it smells bad

mugzilla

I had a '61 AMC/Rambler American 2 door wagon ...

Willidog

I agree that the Unions are a major major part of these companies failing. The amazing thing is that they still think they have the muscle to say they will not make any concessions! Fine, let the company go broke and collect unemployment for a while, then get a real job where you have to WORK to earn your 72 dollars (oh yea, the 72 dollars will be for a days work, not an hour!)

Alb

When times were good and things were made in the US everybody got greedy.The

Alb

Hit the wrong key.The unions saw that the companies were making piles of money and they wanted a piece of it. The companies wanting to keep making more money gave into the unions.Everything is going along fine. Then the CEOS get to thinking, hey I deserve more so they get the BIG PAY OFFS.(NO MAN IS WORTH WHAT THEY GET) Things start to get tight money wise.Then along comes NAFTA. Companies get to thinking. Hey If we build factories out of the country we can keep our BIG PAY OFFS.Then comes the real slow down of the economy.But the BIG BOYS get to keep their big checks coming.Even though they are running the company into the ground.I guess the bottom line is Greed is a terrible thing. I could go on but my finger is getting tired.
Alb

7244too

I agree 100% with all of you, but let's go back ten years, or so, to one of the nations top three steel companies...Bethlehem Steel. Nine chances outta ten, any bridge you drive your classic or antique (or brand new) car over has some history with Beth.Steel. But in that case, as this, a combination of bad management, crazy labor rates, cheaper import products, and the unwillingness to make concessions led to the closing of a once great company. And that wasn't during a recession. That affected alot of families in my immediate area. Some haven't recovered at this point. IMHO the biggest problem with upper management in todays mega corporations is the simple fact that they have never spent 4-5 years on the production floors in the plants that make their products. Hell, I bet none of them would even consider sitting on a towmotor. They're disconnected and don't give a crap other than what they make a year. Afterall, they might have to stay late to fix a problem that wasn't their fault to start. HMMM sounds like maintenance to me. Now there is the part of many businesses that get the BS jobs and none of the glory. If the bigwigs at the "BIG THREE" or the union employees had to live on my measly 28K a year and raise four kids and pay for all the things that go with children, they would be looking for government assistance anyway. Problem nowadays is most people don't live within their means. Sorry, but if ya can't afford it, don't buy it. OK, I'll get off my "soapbox" now cause I really didn't have a strong opinion in the first place. Happy Holidays all and wishing everyone a healthy and prosperous New Year...Gery.

Jokers69

Those that say let them fail are shortsighted.

If they fail, the the suppliers who supply the suppliers will fail. Joe sixpack who works for the suppliers will get laid off, he will not be able to go out to dinner with his families, therfore the restutants will fail. Night at the movies? Forget about that, empty megatheaters. You'r smalltown minor league sports team, attendence will plummet, empty small town civic arenas and baseball parks. He will not have medical insurance, therefore they will not be able to get even the most basic health care. Small mom and pop stores, shuttered. ect.. The fallout will be far reaching and devistating.

I say, prepackaged "bankrupcy lite". That way when the courts get involved the unions can be broken, the pension plans can be modifed, then the govt can proceed with regulated loans to keep the industries at least somewhat alive. Then they have to stop making these ridiculas vehicles that got us in this mess in the first place. WHO THE HELL NEEDS A HUMMER??!! The pickups today are bigger then the friggin dump trucks when I was a kid. Come on.. Mommy driving the kids around in an F350 Superduty dually with 4 doors and leather interior? That's just nuts. This country has gotten fat and happy, it needed to explode.

74 Omega

X2

KeithA0000

I agree that's stupid. But people were buying them. And the profit on those big vehicles was huge. Profit on the Aveo or other small cars: marginal. They built what people wanted. Gas prices go up, and and now everyone's mad at the carmakers?
I blame the big 3 for not being prepared. They've seen this before, and should have had some contingency plans. Unfortunately, it takes years to design a new vehicle from scratch. But let's face it, we all had a hand in this, buying big-*** gas guzzlers. Me and probably a third of the people on this board!

hsckris

The problem with this logic is that wages haven't kept up with inflation (unless you're UAW ). Hence people were borrowing more to maintain the same lifestyle in the face of inflation.

In my opinion letting them fail could solve the two worst problems: mismanagment and UAW. Somebody will purchase them in whole or part (well, maybe not Chrysler, but certainly GM & Ford). If the purchasers are smart, they'd do away with any UAW contracts as part of the terms of the purchase, and "reorganize" by removing the managers who led the companies into this pit.

Olds64

Has anyone noticed that a majority of the ads on our website are ads from the Detroit Big Three? I am looking at an ad right now that says, "The Ford Story, See Ford's progress on their plan to make the world's best vehicles."

Talk about BS. I would't buy a lawnmower engine from one of the Big Three if they sold it to me for a candy bar.

Jokers69

in the time that they're failing, before the parts are purchased at a fire sale, people (real people who live within their means) that rely in some way on the big 3 buisness are seeing they're lives fall apart. Why wait for the failure, when loans with strings attached and a type of bankrupcy can achive the same effect of renegotiating contracts and busting the unions? It seems like the ones that are rooting for failure think it won't affect them, you're wrong.

citcapp

One manufacturing job provides 10 jobs in other areas. grocery store clerks, shoe sales man, sub-contractor auto parts manufactures who in turn supply another 10 outside jobs, policemen, fireman, street cleaners, you name it. The job losses would be staggering all across the country. As much as I hate it we have to bail them out with heavy controls on what they can and cannot do. Through goverment interventation the unions can be brokern and the fat cat CEO's can be ousted as they should be and wages and leadership salarys brought into line with other manufacturing jobs.

daves62

I don't think the unions need to be broken. they do need slapped on the head but not so hard they break. I am a union member for the last 15 years and make a reasonable wage. I how ever would not consider the wages paid to the UAW reasonable by any means. I know if i was told that if i didn't renegotiate my contract i wouldn't have any way to take care of my family I would renegotiate. i have a hard time thinking any man could be ignorant enough to take no money over less money. all of the benefits we (union and non union) enjoy were once fought for by the unions. OK I'll get off my soap box now

74omega

I think it sucks. We get it in the keyster when we buy crappy cars they make, pay the ridiculous dealership maintenance/parts fees (those who rely on them) and the top CEO's laugh and get rich. Greed ultimately has a price and sad to say I think they KNOW who will pay for the outcomes of their greed .. WE THE TAXPAYERS.

The union is also to blame. I think thats why some plants MIGRATED overseas or out of country why pay $60 an hour, when you can pay $15 a day?

If we bail them out they will probably move all their plants to foreign countries anyways. Greedy bastards. AMERICAN CARS "BUILT IN MEXICO"

I will NEVER EVER buy another American car unless it is PRE-1975 !!

daves62

I agree Before any bailout is given their should be a new agreement in hand from the UAW,a restructuring plan of the big threes management and a loan forfeiture if jobs are sent over seas. We need to keep are money in America.

Oldsguy

Life isn't fair, greedy people usually get ahead in life without paying the price, that's the facts. It has always been that way. The honest people just keep on trudging along, there is no other choice for us. I am often accused of being a fatalist.

KeithA0000

I agree, but history has shown that sometimes a union will do things that make no sense, like refuse wage cuts when there is clearly no money, strike itself and their companies to death. If they can be brought into line & face reality, then there no need for busting them.

daves62

if the UAW is in link up with the federal transportation act that would mean that in a time of strike the gov steps in and imideatly mediates the terms what this dose is down plays the major leverage the union holds, the ability to strike. this would also give the gov control of the big three during times of war or national emergencies and that would stop them from making huge profits off of wars. this is what the gov did to the air traffic controllers and the railroads

KeithA0000

Someone emailed me this; thought it might fit here.