Olds64

Keith, that is AWSOME! It pretty much wraps up what is happening.

442scotty

Good idea! I wonder how many cars you could get for all those billions!...

OLD SKL 69

I have to admit, I am a little surprised by many of the comments on the board. I figured most of us would want to see them survive, not die off so we can all buy Toyotas. I agree that nothing beats driving one of our old cars and believe their personality and styling can't be beat by any of today's cars. But I also do not want to see the big three fail. I have bought several newer cars over the past few years, both japanese and American makes. My experience has been that the foreign cars are no better. But there is a perception that foreign cars are better and American cars are still lacking in quality. So sales continue to slide. This is our last big industry that Americans can hang their pride on. I hope that they do make it because I like many of the newer cars like the Chrysler 300, Challenger, Solstice, Corvette, Mustang, CTS, and the new Camaro that is about to be released to name a few. Not to mention my new 08 Silverado which is a great truck.

daves62

the government could give every 143.8 families in us a $30,000 car or every 71.9 families a $15,000 car that's a lottery I might Evan win (family=4.5 people) or every man,woman and child could get about $46.35 466,666.66 cars

59-59-59

Did anyone else here actually read this comment? This has got to be one of the most thought provoking things anybody here has said, yet nobody can answer it!

KeithA0000

In the depression, there was no competition. And they paid for current labor only, not 3 generations of labor. That makes a HUGE difference. Really, it's the crux of their current problems.

KeithA0000

x2

Oldsguy

It is all perception my friend (both this whole situation and whether one car has more quality in it than another). As far as being proud of an Industry, it is time relevent. I am proud of what the American Automotive Industry represented, but not what it presently represents. The making and selling of cars is a business about more than just making a good car or even one that is perceived to be of good quality, it is also about marketing, cost management, labor relations, etc. In those respects the Big 3 have failed dismally and are now asking the American taxpayer to pay for their mistakes with only one argument. "Look at all the jobs that are at stake". As I see it, that is their responsibility, not mine. Nobody is going to bail out my company if it fails simply to save my job.

Jokers69

Well, the UAW refused to make concessions during this contract that expires in 2011, they decided to take TODAY's $$ over TOMORROW's jobs. I say bust the greedy bastards, there are plenty of people that will do the jobs for a decent wage, all the UAW ever wants is more... It goes to reason, the more the workers get, the more the fat cat union bosses get for doing nothing.

Jokers69

I'ts not just your job that is at stake in this situation. My company is failing, we're small and have laid off so many people that there isn't really any more fat to cut. All summer we were on 4 day 32 hour work weeks, we've had 2 week long furloughs and I'm not certain there will be any light after the Christmas (thats right, christmas, not "holiday") break. We do not rely on the big 3 for anything we do, except for the trickle down of working people that have the means to purchase new items for their homes. It's friggin scary the situation we're in now. Just this morning Stanley Works, (headquartered the next town over from me) announce 2000 jobs cut world wide. (they've already moved a majority of their manufacturing overseas in the last 25 years).

OLD SKL 69

I agree with you that they have not done well with these issues. However, as others have pointed out as well, they have high legacy costs. Each new vehicle that GM sells has over $1,800 in costs for the pension and insurance of retirees. So it just goes to show that the UAW has gotten away with too many concessions over the years. This needs to be eliminated from their bottom line so they can be more cost competitive. They also need to start making more desirable cars and less big suv's.

If you look at the domestic parts content of new vehicles today, it is still for the most part, very different for the big 3 vs foreign companies. While big 3 vehicles hover around 75% domestic parts content, the other companies average in the 30's. Their effect and support of our economy is far less than the big 3. We do need the big 3 to survive not only because it contributes to the GDP but also the amount of workers it employs either directly or indirectly. If they fail, I am sure that the foreign car companies will make more cars to meet demand, and more American $$$ will leave our shores and go to Japan, Korea and other places and support their people instead of us.
We have already lost too many manufacturing jobs in this country and we are bleeding too much money every month to foreign nations. If they fail, it will only make this problem worse, not better.

Eric Anderson

I don't think anyone here wants them to fail, just take responsibility for their collective greed and indifference to the customer. Just this morning the bailout bill failed because of the UAW refuseing to make concessions. What the he**? I have never owned any car or truck other than a GM product, and if the economy continues in this way I probably won't be buying any new vehicle for a long time anyway domestic or otherwise, and mabey no one else will either and the whole point will be moot. Dang what a way to start a day off.

citcapp

I guess they would rather not have jobs then make concessions. Then they can all collect rocking chair money for a year them work at Burger King. Stupid Union leadership. The members are being suckered by them, hope they wake up in time

Oldsguy

Good points all. We are in this together so I don't wish disaster an anyone as it does affect all of us. It is just very hard to have sympathy for the companies OR the workers right now. Some people need to do some serious thought and come back down to earth, stop thinking so greedily and perhaps those of us watching from the outside will be more merciful.

Jokers69

I agree 100%, I have no sympathy for the Co. leadership, I have no love for the union leadership.

Oldsguy

Yeah, kinda wonder if it was left up the working man if he would not say "Sure I'll take a cut in pay over not having a job at all!" Kind of bad when Union leadership can dally with so many jobs so flippantly.

Lady72nRob71

It would be sad to lose such well-known American companies, but they have brought it amongst themselves. I do have to say that no CEO is worth what they are getting, and that is for sure.

Also, in my opinion, there is just too much foreign crap coming here!
How many just come from Asia alone? How about the new "entry level" lines like the kias, daewoos, hundais, and such? I knew someone with a daewoo and he had nighmares with it after 5 years...

I ponder on this memorable event a lot:
Back long ago, Harley Davidson was very close to going under, being heavily undermined by the huge influx of cheap jap bikes. HD had their share of quality issues also then.
The (HD) Motor Company made a deal with congress to impose big taxes on all the imports so HD could regain market share. During that time they restructured, improved their quality, and got back to normal business.
After not too long, they were very successful.
So successful, that HD actually told the president that the import taxes could be lifted.
They have been successful ever since, depite the number of cheaper Asian bikes that continue to flood the US.
Would this work with the Big 3???
COULD either of them get their act together??

I do know for sure I will never buy an import car, and preferably never any new car. Most are just ugly plain "appliances" with no style. HOWEVER, the new Camaro would be nice, or that Dodge SRT, or the new Mustang (and a couple others)... But will I pay 50K for that style? No. Back in the old days, style (and power) was built in! Why not now?
I do think most of the 3's trucks and large SUVs are appealling for the price though.
I drove a 2009 Trailblazer 2 months ago on vacation for 1500 miles and it was a very nice SUV! Mileage was 20 average and had gobs of power and comfort. It gave no trouble at all, unlike a mitsubishi and dodge minivan I had in previous trips...
Of course I could probably never work on anything new anyway. I refuse to paying 100 bucks for an estimate, 500 bucks for someone to change a water pump or 600 for a window motor, etc.

This is all why I am restoring my '72 Olds... She will stay a long while; the newest will go in the first hint of trouble.

Getting off the soapbox now... Good luck to the "only 3".

442scotty

I am working at a Toyota dealership up North here....I have always bought Big 3...We decided to try a new camry...sold it 6 months later(junk)...I got tired or waiting for the camaro and challenger so we bought a new Mustang...awesome car...pleasure to drive and no problems at all...

Dont kid yourself...Toyota has its share of lemons...you just never hear about them...they clean up the mess as fast as it is made so it rarely hits the news...

But getting back to some of the issues, this is way different than the great depression...So many jobs have been outsourced to the eastern countries and Mexico it is no wonder we are in trouble on this side of the ocean...

I got a rude awakening last November when the wife and I travelled to Boston for the first time....while walking the hallowed grounds at Harvard University we were shocked to see so many people sleeping in makeshift tents on the grounds of a nearby park!!

This has been a long time coming and has been postponed by the quick fix easy lending practices that kept our economies afloat...Its like a giant pyramid sceme that has finally collasped.

We need to bring back the industries that have been outsourced...and as for cars....If you want to sell it here...build it here....with North American/USA made parts...the trade imbalance is astounding in the USA...the other way up here in Canada for now but we are doing the same thing...outsourcing....Im all for free trade but corporate greed and laziness has created this mess along with politcians asleep at the switch..

The terrorists dont need to try and bring us down...they just have to sit back and watch while we self destruct from our own stupdity...

Lady72nRob71

Or they hide it.

My ex-ladyfriend had a 99 camry and when I met her in 2001, I told her that it sounded as if the front end was gonna fall off (it had 30K miles). It clunked worse than my old Pinto after 150K miles!
Her warranty just ended.
The dealer would not even look at it without charging, saying that she would just take the advice and have it fixed elsewhere. That is the "customer is always stupid" mentality those dealers often have.

She took it to a mom & pop shop and without even looking at the car, this old guy in overalls pulls out a factory service bulletin (which should have been a recall), described how the wrong suspension bushings were put in a large range of years of different toyo models.
The guy made a copy of the page and he told her to take that back to the dealer and say that it should be fixed for nothing. If not, that document could stand in court.

The dealer promptly took the page from her and they fixed it for nothing. They obviously did not want her to spread the word...
Talk about dishonest business practices! (Much like the tainted practices of putting dangerous chemicals into pet food, baby food, toothpaste, etc just to make it look like it passed FDA tests!)

Mitsubishi made the news a couple years ago by hiding 21 recalls. Their spokesidiot stated they were simply "non life threatening".

Heck, GM recalled a line of cars because the headlights were too bright...

yammiman

I took it for granted that everyone knew the answer!! - it was the "New Deal" and the "Second New Deal" that brought us through the depression - it was the beginning of Government spending on economic programs to put everyone back to work - unfortunately it also nearly tripled the nation debt, and some say it started a trend of deficit spending that has never stopped - very simular to what is going on now with one big exception - back then we were the world leader in almost every industry - today we have become the world follower in many industries - the global economy has leveled the playing field and we Americans are spoiled by the highest wages in the world for the least amount of work which is resulting in us being non-competetive in the global arena - in common terms, we are getting our a**es kicked!!! - the parties over and you better be ready to live with less and work harder for it!! - as for the Big Three, they need to go bankrupt because bankrupcy is the only thing that will save them - I don't think they will be going anyplace if they go bankrupt - they will get out from some debt, restructure, and also get out from under the arm of the unions - throwing money at them is not the answer!! - just my 2 cents!!

csstrux

One party in this fiasco that seems to be absent in this discussion is big brother. management has failed, uaw is less than useless, and forked themselves and the big three yesterday, but the big three are essentially told what to build by uncle sam. Think about it for a while. Also consider for a moment the overall economy, and the correlation to cooperate taxes. Our entire economy has been manipulated by unkle sam and it has finally come home to roost. The sad thing is that either through misdirection, greed ignorance or class envy we have just put the party most responsible for the whole mess in complete control of the government, and indirectly our future. Kind of scary when you start following the dots and putting two and two together. The best bail out that could be accomplished would be to give the money "back" to the fed, and cut corperate and capitol gains taxes to 10% or less. If the nations employers were given a reason to risk their capitol, they would. Joblessnes would be nearly eliminated, wages would increase, we would all be better off, asuming we are all adults that just want a decent job, or maybe a hand up. history has proven this time and again. There is no good reason that we are where we are now, or the big three. Envy, sloth, and greed are dangerous habits, which it seems as a nation we are all guilty of.

69convertible

Big 3 plants to close temporarily in Canada

Canwest News Service Published: Friday, December 12, 2008
The president of the Canadian Auto Workers union said Friday that all Big Three auto plants in the country will be shut down temporarily as the industry struggles to survive an economic downturn.


Ken Lewenza said the plants will be closed for different periods of time through December and January. "It's fluid, folks . . . . Who knows what's going to happen."

The temporary layoffs are "as a result of declining sales in the United States."

General Motors has 12,574 active workers in Canada, Chrysler LLC has 7,865 and Ford Motor Co. has 7,402.

News of the shutdowns came as Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said he is open to helping the Canadian auto industry, despite the unravelling of the loan package after Republican Senators said wage concessions did not go far enough.

"Our government is open to helping the industry," Flaherty said Friday in Saint John, N.B.

"This is a day-by-day thing, obviously, in terms of developments in the United States . . . we'll continue to stay close to the situation there and continue the discussions with the industry here. This is an important sector clearly in the Canadian economy, not only the Detroit Three but also the very important parts sector in Canada. Canada has some of the major players in the world in automotive parts."

Also Friday, the White House said Friday that it is willing to consider using funds from the U.S. Treasury's Troubled Asset Relief Program to extend aid to U.S. automakers after a $14-billion US deal to rescue the Detroit Three collapsed in the U.S. Senate late on Thursday.

Providing access to the $700-billion US TARP program would represent a significant break for the automakers. That fund was originally designed to aid U.S. financial institutions.

69convertible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySVwn5bH_uA

OLD SKL 69

It is so unfortunate that we have the big 3 execs livin' it up and now the UAW telling us that they refuse a pay cut. What a disgrace. Had both sides given in a little, they probably would have gotten the bailout money or a loan today. There was a special on the news tonight about how there are over 700,000 non-union US based employees that manufacture parts for the big 3's automobiles. They are all in fear of losing their jobs and were hoping for some good news today. Let's hope this all gets worked out soon.

daves62

Wow was I wrong they are that ignorant. selfish,greedy,thankless will ti's the season.

63 F85 Cutlass

I for one would like the U.S. auto industry survive.

I think we should help auto companies out financialy, but not in the form of a handout. Ido like the Idea of a loan for them. Another thought I had was let the government buy stock in auto companies, but not enough to buy full power of the company. This would allow the auto industry to revitalize, and the government would make some money back, which maybe they could use to take over paying the pensions of retirees.

I also think the government should create incentives for automakers to build cars here in the U.S.. If were helping them out, there should be some sort of promise that they will keep jobs here. If the government places heavy taxes on shipping cars for sale into the U.S. It will become economically feasible to build them here.

The toughest part about the comeback of the big 3 will be getting consumers to buy. If we buy only from domestic automakers, they will be able to get better. The catch 22 is that many of us won't buy from them untill there is substantial trust in the product. One thing you should look into is that there are a shitload of great cars out there from the big 3 at this time which are well worthy of looking into. For example, with personal experience I know that the 06 Chevy malibu is a great car, my father bought one in january of 07. It gets 24 mpg city 32 highway with a 215 horse 3.5L V6, which matches all the same sized imports out there, but with more power, and it has had zero problems with 61000 miles on it. If your looking for a new car, dont rule out the domestics, simply because they are domestics.

Of course there are other problems out there to be delt with such as the unions, and yada yada yada, sorry, but this is all getting me bummed, i've gotta sdtop writing about this.

-Ryan

csstrux

Last I heard they are following Lee Iaccoca's example and have taken a one dollar salary per year until they are back in the black. I think there was a time frame specified but do not recall what it was. I have no problem with big bonuses, as long as they reflect the success of the company. Most of my life I have only taken jobs that are paid on production. Personally I think that is the only way to do things. high producers are compensated fairly for their labor, as well as the lazy f%^&$#s. Everything is even steven. I bet productivity would be through the roof in all the factories if wages were tied to a per unit completed scale verses a per hour.

Jamesbo

.










It's in the way you dress. The way you boogie down. The way you sign your unemployment check. You're a man who likes to do things your own way. And on those special odd-numbered Saturdays when driving is permitted, you want it in your car. It's that special feeling of a zero-emissions wind at your back and a road ahead meandering with possibilities. The kind of feeling you get behind the wheel of the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition from Congressional Motors.

All new for 2012, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the mandatory American car so advanced it took $100 billion and an entire Congress to design it. We started with same reliable 7-way hybrid ethanol-biodeisel-electric-clean coal-wind-solar-pedal power plant behind the base model Pelosi, but packed it with extra oomph and the sassy styling pizazz that tells the world that 1974 Detroit is back again -- with a vengeance.

We've subsidized the features you want and taxed away the rest. With its advanced Al Gore-designed V-3 under the hood pumping out 22.5 thumping, carbon-neutral ponies of Detroit muscle, you'll never be late for the Disco or the Day Labor Shelter. Engage the pedal drive or strap on the optional jumbo mizzenmast, and the GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition easily exceeds 2016 CAFE mileage standards. At an estimated 268 MPG, that's a savings of nearly $1800 per week in fuel cost over the 2011 Pelosi.

Even with increased performance we didn't skimp on safety. With 11-point passenger racing harnesses, 15-way airbags, and mandatory hockey helmet, you'll have the security knowing that you could survive a 45 MPH collision even if the GTxi SS/Rt were capable of that kind of illegal speed.

But the changes don't stop there. Sporty mag-style hubcaps and an all-new aggressive wedge shape designed by CM's Chief Stylist Ted Kennedy slices through the wind like an omnibus spending bill. It even features an airtight undercarriage to keep you and a passenger afloat up to 15 minutes -- even in the choppy waters of Cape Cod inlet.

Available in a rainbow of color choices to match any wardrobe, from Harvest Avocado to French Mustard. A special high capacity hatchback holds up to 300 aluminum cans, meaning fewer trips to the redemption center. And the standard 3 speaker Fairness ActoPhonic FM low-band sound system means you'll never miss a segment of NPR again.

Best of all, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt is made right here in the U.S.A. by fully card-checked unionized workers and Detroit's famous visionary jet-set managers. Even if you don't own one, you can enjoy the patriotic satisfaction that you're supporting the high wages, good benefits, and generous political donations that are once again making the American car industry the envy of the world.

But why not buy one anyway? With an MSRP starting at only $629,999.99, it's affordable too. Don't forget to ask about dealer incentives, rebates, tax credits, and wealth redistribution plans for customers from dozens of qualifying special interest groups. Plus easy-pay financing programs from Fanny Mae.

So take the bus to your local CM dealer today and find out why the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the only car endorsed by President Barack Obama. One test drive will convince you that you'd choose it over the import brands. Even if they were still legal.

Jamesbo

.










It's in the way you dress. The way you boogie down. The way you sign your unemployment check. You're a man who likes to do things your own way. And on those special odd-numbered Saturdays when driving is permitted, you want it in your car. It's that special feeling of a zero-emissions wind at your back and a road ahead meandering with possibilities. The kind of feeling you get behind the wheel of the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition from Congressional Motors.

All new for 2012, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the mandatory American car so advanced it took $100 billion and an entire Congress to design it. We started with same reliable 7-way hybrid ethanol-biodeisel-electric-clean coal-wind-solar-pedal power plant behind the base model Pelosi, but packed it with extra oomph and the sassy styling pizazz that tells the world that 1974 Detroit is back again -- with a vengeance.

We've subsidized the features you want and taxed away the rest. With its advanced Al Gore-designed V-3 under the hood pumping out 22.5 thumping, carbon-neutral ponies of Detroit muscle, you'll never be late for the Disco or the Day Labor Shelter. Engage the pedal drive or strap on the optional jumbo mizzenmast, and the GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition easily exceeds 2016 CAFE mileage standards. At an estimated 268 MPG, that's a savings of nearly $1800 per week in fuel cost over the 2011 Pelosi.

Even with increased performance we didn't skimp on safety. With 11-point passenger racing harnesses, 15-way airbags, and mandatory hockey helmet, you'll have the security knowing that you could survive a 45 MPH collision even if the GTxi SS/Rt were capable of that kind of illegal speed.

But the changes don't stop there. Sporty mag-style hubcaps and an all-new aggressive wedge shape designed by CM's Chief Stylist Ted Kennedy slices through the wind like an omnibus spending bill. It even features an airtight undercarriage to keep you and a passenger afloat up to 15 minutes -- even in the choppy waters of Cape Cod inlet.

Available in a rainbow of color choices to match any wardrobe, from Harvest Avocado to French Mustard. A special high capacity hatchback holds up to 300 aluminum cans, meaning fewer trips to the redemption center. And the standard 3 speaker Fairness ActoPhonic FM low-band sound system means you'll never miss a segment of NPR again.

Best of all, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt is made right here in the U.S.A. by fully card-checked unionized workers and Detroit's famous visionary jet-set managers. Even if you don't own one, you can enjoy the patriotic satisfaction that you're supporting the high wages, good benefits, and generous political donations that are once again making the American car industry the envy of the world.

But why not buy one anyway? With an MSRP starting at only $629,999.99, it's affordable too. Don't forget to ask about dealer incentives, rebates, tax credits, and wealth redistribution plans for customers from dozens of qualifying special interest groups. Plus easy-pay financing programs from Fanny Mae.

So take the bus to your local CM dealer today and find out why the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the only car endorsed by President Barack Obama. One test drive will convince you that you'd choose it over the import brands. Even if they were still legal.

citcapp

Please order me one in Teal with the matching handbag and shoes for Christmas. My wife will go nuts.

KeithA0000

Hey; who knows what the future holds!

bigoldscruiser

Hey! That is a great piece of literary genius. I sometimes wish I could write like that then I could sell books and not worry about where the next buck is coming from. Oh well, there is always Social Security - or is there???

csstrux

X2

KeithA0000

Oh, there is now, but when it's our turn? ::don't bet on it...

gus edwards

gus edwards

Amen to that, y'all!!!! The spiritual life force of GM, or in general, the entire auto industry, was the Oldsmobile division; when the spiritual life force is removed from an entity, that entity will crumble; that's what is happening now. Unless the Oldsmobile division is restored, no bailout, however large or small, will do one iota of good. In the meantime, the Oldsmobile legacy will live on; those of us who own Oldsmobiles will hold on to 'em for dear life. There is a great possibility that Oldsmobiles could be manufactured again, perhaps with the backing and support of a private entity, not a large, faceless corporation. Gus Edwards/Cheryl B. Montoya

fatboy578

They killed the Oldsmobile line,let them die a slow death, They deserve it. The unions were a big factor in their demise.