Bernhard

I don't think there is anything wrong with them charging a fee they have costs to cover.
I'm old school and prefer printed manuals, I have a few on CD and I just don't like them as much.
I think it has to do with what you grew up with. I know the kids like every thing on a electronic device.

TK-65

Working mans hobby?

Koda

Yeah, I don't know of anyone on here that's rich.

allyolds68

I think it's interesting that the ones that heavily promoted Wildaboutcars have yet to opt in on this thread. I'd like to know if the people that donated large volumes of information to the site knew that it would eventually be a pay-for format.


I don't have a problem with a site that charges. I was a huge proponant of charging a nominal fee for ROP back when there was a wealth of information on that site and it kept crashing.


I was approached to participate in WAC but declined because I have two young kids that require most of my spare time. I can tell you that if I was told up front that the website was being developed so it could be sold off I certainly would not have participated.

Allan R

Actually when it was 'free' there were stipulations set on WAC about the fact it was copyrighted information and the information could not be copied in whole as part of their agreements. No one said 'infringement' in any of the previous permalinks though. So, no matter if it's free or not there were some legalities that WAC asked its members to adhere to.

The way I see this is a lot like a modified public library. Only thing is with a library I can go in for free and research for free. If I want to copy parts of the information to use I can use the library photocopier (for a fee) or scan the image onto my phone or tablet (for free). The only part of library use that requires a payment is the card fee to take materials out. Similar in nature to what APHS is doing. I'm sure that all the donated material sent to WAC by members and still outstanding at the time of WAC's demise will eventually make its way onto the AHPS site.

I'm not surprised that Kurt or Bob hasn't responded to this thread, but I'm a little disappointed they didn't give us a heads up that AHPS was taking over and WAC was gonzo. However, the way this site server administrates 'recent posts' you can't find anything recent even after you just posted on it.

Koda

Well, one good thing is at least you won't hear wild about cars getting pimped on half the tech posts.

Diego

TK-65

The only persons financials on here you know anything about is your own.

There are many levels of this hobby.

Koda

You missed the point, I think

TK-65

Not really. You think someone is getting over on the working man.

D. Yaros

Maybe I am "old fashion," but I do have a real problem in having to pay to view documents I scanned and gave to them to put online. Seems to me something is wrong with that picture?

Allan R

Dave, if you read up on their site it says that consideration may be given to past contributors, educators etc. Maybe contact Eric and ask about that? I was wondering if someone who had contributed material would voice a comment.

m371961

What about the ones that donated under the assumption the info would be free to all?
As a non-profit, are they receiving, eligible or applying for grants?
I know other preservation societies get them for documents, music etc.
(not that I support that idea either)

Allan R

IDK the answer to that. Call or message Eric and ask. Then post the results here for us to read? I would think there are 2 schools of thought here:

1. Information that was donated is now the property of the person/organization it was donated to and any rights to it are lost, regardless of original intent, by the donator.

2. Donated items that were to be available to all for free could be returned on request to the donator. That does not ensure or guarantee that the items haven't been scanned or archived already.

The whole issue of donations was discussed at one time several years back in another thread by several members. At that time it was understood (right or wrong) that anything donated to WAC became the property of WAC, which is why some of the members decided that they would keep the material themselves. So using that as a launch point, I would surmise that anything WAC had is now the property of AHPS. This is all just conjecture on my part, so anything you find out from Eric would be great to share.

Charlie Jones

I scanned and sent a complete 49-63 Oldsmobile master parts catalog on CD's to Kurt a couple of months ago. As of Oct 14th it still hasn't appeared on their websight.
I still have all the images (scanned as JPG's ) on my computer.
If anyone who wants to use them on their websight (maybe this websight ?) I will gladly send them to them on CD's. AS LONG AS THEY ARE FREE FOR ANYONE TO VIEW.
These books (chassis & body) were copyrighted in 1963 so I'm sure that the copyright has long expired (28 years).

D. Yaros

I did reach out, in a fit of pique. Here is my query, and the response:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gents:

Am I too understand that you now want me to pay to view materials (FSM) that I took the time to scan and transfer to you for upload on this site? Fat chance in hell of that happening!

I was also under the impression that all classic owners who have their ride(s) insured by Hagerty were granted AHPS membership. Did you also put and end to that?

Lots of luck, folk ... .


Dave Yaros -
___________________________________________
from: Bob Gerometta <bob.gerometta@ahpsoc.org>
6:00 PM (15 hours ago)
to: Eric, me

Dave

It is not about “Paying” it is about Donating to keep the Society going. I think you have the wrong impression. The Society operates on a donation basis as we no longer have advertising monies to support the website. Donations let the Society grow and function. Each and every member of the Society – including the volunteer staff - have all made donations – some way in excess of $100.

Are you telling me that you are unwilling to help the Society continue to be viable? Given that you donated materials because you thought what we are doing is viable, it would seem to me that if you think what we are doing is a good thing – and you would be happy to donate $25 or more to see that we continue.

Do you belong to a car club or car club chapter, a garden club, a book club, or another organization? Do they ask you to pay dues to join? What benefit do you receive for that membership? Does a non-member receive the same benefits? Of course not. That is the way a club, society or other membership-based groups work. That is the way we have to work.

As such there are different levels of donation – all in consideration of people’s income levels and disposable income. If you are strapped for cash, you may make the minimum donation of $9.95 and receive all the benefits of the regular members, who, at a minimum, make a $25 donation, if you cannot or are unwilling to do so, you still have access to 80% of the website, including News, Technical Section, Ads, Brochures, the Photo Archive, and the Magazine Archive.

And I am surprised at your reaction of getting into a huff and angry. How about asking if your donations in the past would grant you an exemption or honorary membership in the Society? If you cannot bring yourself to talk to us in a civil manner, just let us know and we will send back the materials you donated and you may go on your way. Just say the word Dave – God forbid we would want to have materials from someone who can’t see that costs a bundle to do what we are doing and can’t find a way to help out. I await your answer.

Robert P. Gerometta
Operations Director

Automotive History Preservation Society
Preserving the Past for the Future
__________________________________
That pretty much sums it up?

jaunty75

C'mon Allan, the library is not free. It's supported by taxes. If Wild About Cars/AHPS received tax money, it would be "free," too.

Every website on the internet, including classicoldsmobile, is paid for by somebody.

mrolds69

I think one of the problems here is that the site WAS free. So...people have had a taste of that and now feel they are being "forced" to pay. I think I would have paid in the beginning when I first began to use the site. There IS a LOT of info there that would cost the average person a lot of $ to gather for any one car make/model.

Koda

My problem is that the guy has the cheek to call a fee a donation.

If he ASKED for donations, I'd give him something like 20 bucks. If I have to pay 10 bucks as a "minimum donation," I'll go on there once, grab what I what, keep it for my reference, and host a zip file for whoever else wants it.

Despite what some people think, scanned documents are mere megabytes in size, one single webpage with 100 hyperlinks and a directory of zip files would be all it would take to host such things. I know this, because I do it, and for about 60 bucks a year. People are seriously overestimating the costs and data traffic of a site like this.

D. Yaros

Contrary to the above statement, my document contribs were returned to me without my asking that they be either removed or returned.

pogo69

If you make a donation thats great but I wouldn't expect any special treatment or fee' s waived, thats the point of 'donation' and also if you dont want to donate you dont get access to the entire site to me its a simple as that

MDchanic

This group is a non-profit, into which the main participants have poured their own money, and a lot of their own time. Nobody is getting rich here.

If you ask me (Oh, wait - nobody did), it is entirely reasonable for them to solicit donations, and, if just asking isn't enough, to require them.

Unfortunately, they started out as a free site, changed to a paid basis without warning, and have shown absolutely abysmal communication skills throughout, so I am not surprised that people are pissed off.

Personally, I have no idea whatsoever what's going on. I found Bob's letter surprisingly uninformative, I never knew that WildAboutCars was a separate entity from the Society, and I still don't actually know exactly what each one is or does (or was or did, for that matter).
It sounds as though the non-profit Society had a deal with a for-profit company to collect money from ads and the deal went south, but I may have completely misunderstood.

At the moment, I am quite neutral on the issue, because none of this appears to have affected me at all.
I never noticed any ads on the WAC site when I used it (maybe because I run AdBlock or maybe because I was running my internal AdBlock inside my mind), and I didn't notice any change when I looked at it a couple of days ago.
Also, being of a somewhat pessimistic disposition, when I first discovered WAC and joined, I systematically downloaded every single file that I thought might be of interest to me one day (all CSMs, all other dealer and factory information, etc.) and catalogued it all, along with non-Olds literature I have, on my own computer (and on a backup drive, and on a MicroSD card I carry with me at all times), so this has no effect on me whatsoever.

As I am not opposed to making a donation on principle, and, in fact, I believe that it is probably the right thing to do, I am going to wait to see how this total communication failure pans out, and if it is resolved in a way that seems satisfactory to me, I will make a contribution, but if not, then I can walk away feeling fine.
No need to buy the milk when I've already got the cow.

- Eric

tru-blue 442

^^^Nice! That's the way to do it.

oldcutlass

Although I never spent much time on there, I'm kinda shocked in what seems a major change in ownership and direction of the site. I wish we knew the whole story.

Oldsmaniac

I recognize what went into running the sight and applaud the effort. My 2cents is.... I have survived nicely without the site, and the days without internet. This is where clubs, meets, and friends with similar interests helped. I have gathered magazines, tech books and factory publications along the way. Those who are just starting out maybe find WAC
just what they need and the fee, errah, donation is pretty trivial. Everone should decide for thenselves and hopefully the site serves the purpose intended.

jaunty75

Then you must be as blind as a freaking bat!

Go to this page and check out what's on the right side of the center column:

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...plate.cgi?id=8

Notice the ads?

Hit "refresh" on your browser and notice how they change.


THOSE are the ads being talked about, and they're not affected by adblocker or anything like that as they're not pop-ups or pop-unders or whatever.


It's all really very simple. Wild About Cars tried to make a go of it as an advertiser-supported site (just like classicoldsmobile.com). But there was never enough traffic to the site to interest enough advertisers to pay enough money to advertise to make it self-supporting. The Wild About Cars people tried for several years to make it go, using their own money to keep it going, but it never reached a sustainable level. About 90% of visitors went straight to the service manual section without visiting any other parts of the site. That's OK, but it doesn't pay the bills as people need to click on the ads to make the ads pay.

So WAC went out of business, donated their stuff to AHPS (Automotive History Preservation Society), a non-profit that does NOT make its money by advertising but by donations like your local NPR radio station or PBS television station does. Hence the change-over to a membership/subscription/whatever-you-want-to-call-it funding model.

The HOPE is that people will see the value of what AHPS is trying to do, just like they see the value of what NPR and PBS are trying to do, and send AHPS a modest sum to help keep them and their efforts going.

The cheapest way in to access all of the manuals you could get for free before is a whopping $9.95 for a good-for-a-year "library card," and ain't no way anyone in the old car hobby doesn't have ten bucks a year.

jaunty75

Spare us the fake angst. What does your local PBS station call it? You don't have to pay anything to watch the channel, of course, but if enough people don't, the station goes out of business.

Go to any ostensibly "free" museum. They may say that admission is free, but all the signs at the entrance will talk about "suggested donations," and the pressure is on to drop a $5 bill or $10 bill in the box with the slot on top.

A rose is a rose is a rose.

jaunty75

Thank you. You donate something, and it becomes the property of the organization donated to (unless stipulations are made at the time of the donation), and they're not obligated to check back with you whenever they decide to do something with the donated thing, including donating it to someone else. You don't get free admission for life, you don't get a get-out-of-jail-free-card, or whatever. You just get the warm feeling inside that comes from knowing you helped a worthy cause.

jaunty75

Really?

Didn't you just say up above that you sent this pleasant missive to WAC?

What did you expect them to do? Give you a big fat wet kiss on the cheek? I think they were just anticipating what was potentially coming next and figured they'd rather just be rid of any obligation to you. Who could blame them.


As I recall, Wild About Cars even did an article about one of your cars, didn't they? Your '55 Cadillac? Do you want that sent back, too?

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...aldisplayed=50

Who do you think wrote this article, anyway? ME. That's who. It's one of about 70 articles I've written for the site over the last four years. How much have I been paid to date? Exactly $0.00. But I don't care because I consider it a donation and a labor I enjoy, and fortunately I have other means of putting food on the table.

But this is what is meant when it said that people donate their time and money to keep the site running. And this is why it annoys the hell out of me when people whine about 83 cents a month.

Koda

Don't post while drunk or sleepy, dude, you're pretty freaking rude when you do.

MDchanic

You mean those three small square ones there on the right?
Yeah - I never even noticed them... Which, I guess, could be kind of detrimental to the site generating revenue from advertising.



Okay, but I still don't understand why there were two different organizations, and how one couldn't make it, but the other, presumably, can.
Why wouldn't the Society just run ads itself, for instance (which it can do, just like NPR does, so long as any excess income is turned back into the organization)?

- Eric

MDchanic

I had no idea. Thank you for making that contribution of your time and energy to the hobby.
... Of course, those are the articles that I always saw and "meant to read," so I'm sorry now that I didn't, and will have to move them up my list a bit.

But, seriously, thank you. I don't think that a lot of people realize how much work goes into that darned site.

- Eric

jaunty75

But what do you think would have been the response if the ads had been made larger? People would have complained about obnoxious ads taking up too much real estate on the pages. There's no pleasing everyone. I think the site tried to err on the side of unobtrusiveness as far ads went, and, yes, it was probably to its detriment.





I wasn't around at the founding of either of them, so I don't know all the details, but they did have different missions. Plus, I think, an ad-supported site is bound to get more traffic and visitors because people don't have to pay to participate. How many people, for instance, would be on THIS site if you had to pay to play? Probably far fewer than there are now.


As I said earlier, in the case of WAC, the problem was very little traffic to any parts of the site other than the service manuals. What I didn't say earlier, and what was even worse, is that most people who signed up were "one-and-done-ers." They registered at the WAC site, went to the service manual section, downloaded whatever they needed for their car, and never came back to the site again. So the repeat visit rate was very low. Making it free and offering service manuals and the like was done with the hope that people WOULD make return visits, but it never happened at a rate that could sustain the site. So the only choice was a pay-to-participate funding method.


This highlights the real issue, and you are right. Very few people realize what it takes to put on a site like Wild About Cars or any other. People assume, as evidenced by the steady stream of uninformed comments in this thread, that it all happens by magic, that it costs nothing to produce, and that everything on the internet should be free.

As I said earlier in this thread, everything on the internet is paid for by somebody.

Koda

So they went from ads to pay for content. Why didn't they ask for donations?

I am still failing to see where this giant sink of money occurs for this site. I mean, assuming all the manuals are in paper, and they all had to be scanned, that's a month's work for a minimum wage worker. Setting up the site, that's a week or so for a decent web author, maybe 2 weeks for just some guy with Frontpage or even notepad. Then there's hosting; your minimum performance package off of 1and1.com, a popular host, is 60 a month. Once the initial setup is covered, any more than 6 new registrations a month is profit. Either this mandatory donation model is a scam, or they're getting raped on hosting packages.

Joffroi

I'd love to get more technical documents on my Oldsmobile only website (oldsmobilecentral.com). Yearly subscriptions will never be required for my site as long as I run it. Webdesigning and Oldsmobiles are just my hobbies and its all fun. If you have PDFs, email them my way and I'll try to code up a document library of sorts. Since webhosting is cheap, the only think I lack is time.

I think WAC has a lot of great information and I thank them for posting it. Although webhosting is cheap, the time commitment to maintain and update a site can be very extensive. Sometimes things don't work out for them and they have to take their site and different direction. Although I don't think they took the best route of handling their situation, I also realize its the internet... anything can go.

jaunty75

It's clear that you do not have an understanding of the situation, but be careful in reading what I write because it might be nothing more than the ravings of a drunk person.

Because they were not legally in a position to do so. They were not set up as a not-for-profit organization under the tax laws. That's changing now with the transition to ownership by AHPS.

This is where you are the most clueless, but your comment is what would be expected from someone who has never done anything but access the service manuals and assume that's all that's there.

The service manuals are a drop in the bucket compared to all of the material that has been scanned and continues to be scanned. The effort is an ongoing, non-stop operation. The idea is to try to get everything ever written (from magazine articles and reviews to product announcement brochures, every kind and type of literature ever put out by the manufacturers and the automotive press, and on and on and on) about automobiles anywhere in the entire history of the automobile into to digital form and accessible online. Obviously, this is a herculean task that may never be completed, but what IS put online would be a huge asset to historians generations from now along with everyone else who might want to know about the history of the automobiles


And it's comments like this that make trying to have an intelligent conversation with you about this topic probably not worthwhile. Yes, you have it right. The people who runs WAC/AHPS are just scammers. We have nothing better to do than collect $10 donations from the unsuspecting public. And we're also too stupid to know how to shop for website hosting services. I think we'll just turn everything over to you.

jaunty75

This is the big difference between your site and AHPS. You cater only to Oldsmobile, while AHPS is trying to serve the entirety of the history of the automobile, which includes all makes.

Joffroi

I definitely agree that AHPS has a very impressive library and mission of putting it all online.

Koda

Hey man, don't toss what you can't catch. You don't like me calling you out on being drunk or asleep, don't say crap like spare me the fake angst.

Moving on to your points, ok, I understand about WAC not being able to take donations, but that's a red herring argument, because AHPS could take them, right?

How do you know what I've accessed on the site? How do you expect me to even have a conversation with you when you talk like this? Would you say this stuff in person? Why do you try be an ambassador for this new society, yet ruin your credibility by being rude to me and others in front of the whole site?

Considering that a lot of people are taken aback by this mercurial change to demanding money from previously being free, perhaps you ought to listen to what some people are saying, instead of insulting me from the safety of your living room.

jaunty75

Right back at ya, dude!

First off, YOU are the one who has gone around calling people scammers and the like with no evidence at all, from the comfort of YOUR own living room, and then you get upset when they take issue with it? Give me a break.

Second, I don't KNOW what you've visited at the WAC site and what you haven't. I'm just going by your comment that it would take "a month's work for a minimum wage worker" to get all the info loaded to the site to indicate that you think that service manuals are the only thing on the site. Because if you WERE aware of all of the other material available there, you would know that it would take and continues to take far more than a single person-month to scan it all.

Third, it's NOT a red herring that AHPS could take donations and WAC could not. As has been mentioned several times now, but apparently has escaped your notice, WAC and AHPS were two separate organizations until their recent merger.