D. Yaros

1- I sure did. Where in it is a request to have my contribs returned?

2- I certainly did not expect them to deprive other users of the site of my contribs!


3- I agree with this philosophy 110%. I made my contribs/donations willingly. Was glad to do it. Never did I asked that they be removed/returned.

Why would I want them returned? I have the paper originals from whence they came. I was the one who did the scanning/converting. Since I was, I also have the digital files.

It seems to me one may fairly and accurately characterize the removal and return of my contributed files as a knee jerk reaction?

jaunty75

No, you did not make an explicit request to have your contributions returned to you.

But you DID say these rather nasty things as you related in your earlier posts:

I think to most people, these comments would be taken as rather hostile, and I could understand that Bob Gerometta, the person with whom you were in contact, might conclude that severing the relationship is the best thing to do in this situation.


P.S. In my years of association with these organizations, I've never heard of an association between AHPS or WAC and Hagerty Insurance that would grant free access to those who bought their insurance from Hagerty. I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying I never heard of it, and I think I would have. Do we know of anyone who actually obtained free access because they have Hagerty insurance? I notice that Bob did not address this comment in the response to you that you posted.

jaunty75

And let's get one other thing straight. I am not and have never claimed to be an ambassador for WAC/AHPS. Ambassadors are nice. They use tact. They turn the other cheek. I do none of these things.

I only started posting on here because the amount of unfounded, ignorant criticism of what was going on with WAC/AHPS was getting to be too much, even for me.

Allan R

I don't think anyone could or would argue with you about that.

D. Yaros

That reference was my error. It was/is the HVA (Historic Vehicle Association), not the AHPS.

D. Yaros

I said what I said, and stand by my words. We all are entitled to a) have our opinions, and b) to express them.

I wonder if the Library of Congress told Thomas Jefferson he could not check out any of his donated books unless he bought a library card?

Think any one made such a request of Andrew Carnegie?

While I am at it, I will also point out that AHPS being a non-profit does not necessarily mean that the directors of the organization work without being compensated. It means that monies remaining after payment of expenses (among others employee salaries) is plowed back into the organization, instead of being paid out as shareholder dividends.

Since we are never going to agree, which is fine, I shall henceforth stand mute on this subject.

MDchanic

I doubt it, but since he donated money, and not books, the analogy falls flat.

Also, one notes that Andrew Carnegie, in all but five of the 2,500 libraries he funded, required that the town benefitting from the library support it every year with at least 10% of the sum that he donated to build it.

He seemed to feel that donations from the beneficiaries were important.

- Eric

jaunty75

No one has ever said you weren't entitled to your opinions or couldn't express them. No one said Bob Gerometta or anyone else couldn't, either.

I don't know. Why don't we ask them? As MDchanic points out, this analogy is irrelevant.

No one said they were working without compensation or that being a non-profit meant that they wouldn't be paid. Again, I'm not sure I see the relevance to the earlier conversation.

As a matter of fact, no one working with AHPS or WAC has been paid a dime since those organizations were started, and the individuals involved have just been contributing their own time and money. They had HOPED that WAC would have generated enough advertising revenue to cover the cost of running the site and leave something left to pay themselves something. It never happened. (All I've ever gotten in my years of involvement was a Wild About Cars t-shirt). Whether or not it will happen with the donation funding model now being implemented remains to be seen.

This makes at least three points raised by you that don't seem to have any relevance to the earlier concentration. This has never been about us "agreeing" on anything. You simply wondered why Bob Gerometta removed your contributions to the site even though you didn't specifically ask him to do so, and I was pointing how he might have reacted to your messages to him and why they might have caused him to take the actions he did because they're the way I might have reacted had I been him. But I don't know for sure why he did what he did. Maybe you could write to him and ask him. This time, though, I would suggest leaving out comments like "fat chance in hell". They don't necessarily engender goodwill on the part of the recipient.

Koda

Ok, let's pause for a second. I am not upset about them, meaning you, taking issue with my questioning their fee structure, which is opaque, undefined, and seemingly arbitrarily and suddenly imposed. I am noting your rudeness (I'm not upset by it) in your responses. As I have been reminded by certain moderators here, we (at least some of us) are supposed to remain courteous. Since we're not in person, we can't argue it out as such, and it's not really my style to use that report button to the left. So, you can chill, and we can discuss this out, or you can drop the conversation.

I shall retract the comment about it being a scam, however, I will remain unconvinced that the ten dollars per access is "merely enough to break even" and not a for-profit measure until someone puts up their costs model. PBS does it; they can too.

My example of what it would take to get the site up is accurate in content, perhaps not in scope, but the point remains that a scanned document remains scanned; there's a finite number of scans you will do, thus at some point you will be done, and a hosting package for printed media only is cheap. Again, the costs model would help here. In fact, the burden of proof for non-profit status, to us and the government, is such, and on them, not me.

I'm not sure you understand what a red herring is. I said "Why doesn't AHPS take donations instead of these fees?" You said "WAC was not non-profit, thus couldn't take donations." This is trying to get me to assume that, since WAC could not take donations, AHPS can not as well, and must use this fee model. So, the question remains, why does AHPS not make all the data free for everyone and ask for donations out of the goodness of everyone's hearts, like we usually do in hobbies like this?

jaunty75

Yes, but the number of scans contemplated is so large that we are not going to be done in this lifetime. The point is, WAC/AHPS have about 200,000 pages of scanned documents now (let's see you do that in a month), and that's a drop in the bucket compared to the plans. So the scanning is ongoing, which means an ongoing expense, for a long time.

I know perfectly well what a red herring is.

You still have it confused. WAC was a for-profit, advertiser-supported enterprise whereas AHPS was a separate, non-profit organization. Yes, WAC could have solicited donations anyway, but there are problems with this.

1. It's tough to get people to donate to a site where they also see advertising.

2. The donations would not be tax deductible.

3. This is the most important. Making a pitch for donations is a one-time thing that might get them through a month or two. But what happens when the next month or two rolls around? They're in the same boat. Make another pitch for donations? I don't think so. Can't keep going back to that well. Either the site has to be sustainable with the funding model in place, or it will either go out of business or have to change the funding model. WAC couldn't survive on the advertiser-supported model, so it chose to go out of business. Its assets were donated to AHPS, a non-profit organization that CAN ask for donations that would be tax deductible (AHPS is seeking 501c3 status now) and hopes to use a sustaining membership funding model to survive.

Koda

You want to bet all your Oldsmobiles I can scan 200k pages in a month?

I see we are still having difficulty here. You ARE being a bit more civil, thank you. Allow me to attempt to further explain the problem. I fully understand, as in completely, no further explanation needed, thank you, the difference between the for profit and non profit organizations, and I never once suggested that WAC take donations, so your first and second points are unnecessary.

What I DID say was that I wondered why AHPS did not ask for real donations, as in voluntary, before going to the sustaining membership model (you'll pardon me if I don't underline it; I don't go in for condescension). While I will agree that donations are a one time thing, so are people coming to get information on their cars, which is what was said earlier.

I stand by my earlier comment, voluntary donations and goodwill trump "minimum donation" memberships, especially when it was rolled out like they did. I feel that they went straight for the nut-shot, and took advantage of people that donated material for free on here.

My apologies, but I'm done on this one. Reply if you want; I'll read it.

jaunty75

Me, too.

m371961

HooooRaaaah
Made me sorry I started the thread

442ric

It's not about double-sided, batch-scanning a large amount of 8.5 x 11 inch loose-leaf sheets. Sure, the technology to scan that many images in a month does exist; $100k Xerox digital printers have been demonstrating that capability for decades. That's child's play compared to what we are attempting. We are digitizing everything from postcards to posters; brochures to banners; magazine road tests to manufacturer's public relations media kits, and yes, service manuals. We do have many documents of that later ilk waiting on our shelves to be processed; I have over fifty service that are not currently being commercially marketed, and many owners' manuals in my stash waiting for someone to slice up and digitize. However, there are not enough hours in a day for the few of us scanner jockeys working on this project to get everything digitized. We not only require funding to continue our current program of preservation, we are also desperately in need of volunteers to assist in the manual labor required to perform the digitizing. And that leads to a second point...

The AHPS has been virtually screaming for donations for over four years now. Anyone who has gone to our homepage could not help but notice a button that says DONATE. Most visitors are blind and deaf to anything that asks for donations. Very, very few people have donated a single thing during the last 48+ months.

For several months now, during our challenging transition, the AHPS landing page on the WAC site has been asking for donation and volunteer help. We have been running stories explaining what is happening with the closure of WAC, and exactly why the AHPS needs to rely exclusively on donations for its main source of funding. Again, not much interest in anything here but the neat free stuff they can take without giving anything back to the cause. It's because a large number of people just go to the library to download just what they are interested in and don't take the time to explore the rest of our extensive offerings.

We don't mind in the least the taking of stuff without paying for it. That is why we are doing this, so that anyone can access this information in a digital library environment. Over 80% of our material remains open and free for the taking. We will never charge a fee for downloading any of our files. But if someone is not willing to donate a small amount of cash, the equivalent of less than three cents a day—at the very least, they will not be able to get into a small portion of our library.

This small portion of our Digital Documents Library is populated with items that are licensed by outside vendors, and these items (for the most part service manuals) are currently being reprinted for legal and profitable resale on the open marketplace. Anyone can go to these entrepreneurs and purchase a digital copy of these items at any time. We even provide information on the site for contacting these companies. It is not our intent to take away income from these companies. At the current time, we are placing only the 0-section, general information chapters of these manuals into open-access.

How can someone who, out of the kindness of their heart, out of an altruistic spirit of donating to our main-mission-cause of preserving our automotive heritage for our posterity, be taken advantage of in any way? It's the act of giving, not the act of taking with which we are concerned. We don't accept material with the long-term goal of eventually making a crap load of profit from its presence in our digital library. Without donations, gifts, endowments, and grants, not-for-profit organizations simply don't exist. In our case, that unfortunate event would be the real “nut shot” to everyone.

The fact is that if the AHPS does not acquire some serious financial backing in the next year or so, every file on the site will be deleted, wiped out, not available for the pleasure and use of anyone, including enthusiast, hobbyist, researcher, historian, and author. Someone else will have to start over and attempt to locate, digitize and present all the material that we have already processed. It's not a matter of taking our toys and going home. That would be a very easy thing to do; just a few clicks and presto, nothing. That is not a threat, that is stark reality. That is also the last thing we want to see happen. Several individuals, myself included have dedicated over 80 hours a week during the last few years to get this project up and running. That's a lot of lifetime to throw away, so we will make every attempt to see that that does not happen.

As for the relationship between the AHPS and WAC, yes, there is a strong intermingling of persons running both organizations. I myself was the editor of No Limits Magazine for a short while—this feature of WAC will survive with the AHPS takeover. I was also the Pontiac Brand Manager for WAC. I contributed a couple of feature articles that I hope both entertained and informed, and I supplied several member feature car stories to the mix. All of this I gave freely, with no remuneration expected. I am not a wealthy, retired person with nothing better to do than wear out a couple of scanners and my eyesight in the process. I have a mortgage that I struggle to make payments on every month. I know, boo-hoo, so what, most of us are in the same boat. I am also lucky enough to own and enjoy several collector vehicles that I have been privileged to be guardian of for over twenty years. If I wanted to go out and acquire any one of these special cars today, I couldn't even afford to buy the tires. Again, I know, boo-hoo for me. I just believe that volunteering my time and skills to this project is the right thing to do, and this act of volunteering does not come without a certain amount of personal sacrifice on my part. For the third time boo-hoo for me. I say all of this to say, what is the hugely big deal about donating a few measly dollars for a good cause?

I, and everyone involved with the AHPS, believe that what we are doing now was a long overdue project that is a tremendously involved and a substantial, volunteer-intensive undertaking. It turns out that most of our site visitors really don't understand what it is we are trying to accomplish here and really don't care, as long as it's free. Once they are asked politely to donate the equivalent of a quart of gasoline—the amount required to move a vehicle that gets 12 mpg three miles—per month in order to help us advance the AHPS mission, some scream bloody murder and accuse the society of acting in an underhanded, unfair, and selfish manner.

Look, I don't know how we can possibly get across the concept of giving for giving's sake to a society that is increasingly self-involved and electronically isolated. That is something that people either get or don't get; they care or don't care. If the good people on this site wish to take the stance that requiring a donation membership with the AHPS in order to access 100% of the site's great features is somehow an underhanded, sneaky way to steal and hoard information, let that be your twisted viewpoint. We will continue just fine without your help, but we will all benefit immensely with your aid.

One more thing. The AHPS is not formally or contractually associated with or connected to the Historic Vehicle Association. The HVA is substantially funded by the Hagerty Insurance organization. They perform a worthy service for the hobby that the AHPS is pleased to see happening. However, there was never a cross-pollination or sharing of member lists. The AHPS does not sell or share its member's information with anyone.

One more, one more thing. Believe us when we say that this is not a cheap undertaking involving only a home computer, some cheap webpage creation software, and an inexpensive website host. In addition to maintaining and funding a sophisticated and complicated web site, there are many additional costs associated with running an online organization of this wide-ranging scope. We now have to meet monthly costs ranging from online meeting services to statistical reporting functions that aid us in determining the best manner in which to conduct our business model. We are also, at this time, involved in activities aimed at creating a PBS-like experience out of the donor-membership experience. Just like the PBS, we offer varying levels of donor value packages. Go here

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9990448206709

to see what I'm talking about.

ent72olds

I for one got plenty of use out of WAC. It saved me a couple of times when I left my chassis or body books at home and forgot to bring them to the shop. At $10, still a bargain IMO.....I am going with the $25 deal though. At $2 a month, I will buy 1 less coffee a month to cover the cost! Only crappy thing is, they don't take PayPal ....only ck! Sucks because I'm lazy. Oh well.....time to get off my ****!

jaunty75

Yes they do! Most assuredly so. That's how I paid.

Go to this page:

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...plate.cgi?id=8


Click on "join the society" at the top left, then, on the next page, click on "register now" at the bottom of the page, and then on the next page, about half-way down where it talks about being a donating member, it says you'll by Paypal. In fact, I don't see a way to pay by any method BUT Paypal.

ent72olds

That would be very convenient! As of last night, I did not see that. I did see check only though. I will go there right now. Thanks Jaunty!

ent72olds

Well....I just tried! Says my username already exists and that I am already a member.....that must be from WAC? It says go straight to login, but it don't see anywhere to login, just a logout button?!

ent72olds

Done! Went in as a member and it was easy from there. Who else is on board?

1968_Post

I'm relatively new to the site, so perhaps i have a different mindset... with all the $$ I've spent (and continue to spend), $10 is a small price to pay to help me get this thing back together and done properly. I understand how this could annoy long-time users and those that contributed doc's to the site, but is $10 worth all the angst and heartburn?

MDchanic

I'd say that Eric's argument above was sufficient.

Dues paid.

Do we get a secret handshake or something?

- Eric

ent72olds

We can create one Eric.....one thing you do get is a license plate!

70cutty

I have the books for my cars so I really never use the site, but I will pay my dues if it wil help keep things going.

jaunty75

You were actually right about this. On the "Society Membership - Gift Levels" page, paying by check was mentioned, but paying by Paypal was not. If you click on the "Donate" button on the left side of the page, you would be taken automatically to a Paypal page to make the donation, but that's not obvious as the "Donate" button doesn't say Paypal on it.

The comments in the center of the page where it discusses paying by check have been fixed to include a mention of the ability to pay by Paypal. Thank you for pointing this out.

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9990485742354

jaunty75

Yes.

I would just hit that Logout button and then log back in again using your WAC username and password instead of trying to create a new account.

jaunty75

If you hadn't started a thread on this subject, someone else surely would have. Nothing to apologize for.

jaunty75

And this, in a nutshell, was WAC's problem. As I said earlier, almost all visitors to the site came for one reason, and that was to download the manuals for their car. (I don't know if you are one of them or if you have paper manuals, but the point is that most people saw the site only as a place to get service manuals.) After that, few ever came back. The site had something like 10,000 registered users, but probably less than a half-dozen actually logged into the site at any given time. With traffic like that, no advertiser is going to sign up.

Your monetary contribution is greatly appreciated.

70cutty

I have paper manuals, I find it much easier to open one of those when I'm in the garage and my hands are dirty.

I want to support the site and the effort put in to create a library, it would be a shame to let all this hard work disappear.

MDchanic

On the other hand, I prefer to read the manual in the comfort and cleanliness of the house, then print out a few pages from the digital version, take them out to the car, write on them and get grease al over them, then throw them away.

- Eric

allyolds68

I used WAC all the time but not for what you think. I have all the manuals for 68 already. In fact, I even have a few more than WAC has. I already had my assembly manual scanned so that didn't help me much either.


But I used it all the time to answer questions from people on this site that were either too lazy to look or too computer challenged to figure out where things were located on the WAC site. I probably converted 30 individual pdf pages to jpg and uploaded them to tinypic.com over the last year or two so I could post them here and explain where/how things were supposed to be installed.


I'm pretty sure Eric (MDChanic) used it for that too.........


Now you'll have to find it yourselves for $10.

jaunty75

But you were still using it for the service manual aspect of the site, right? Just service manuals (or assembly manuals or whatever) for cars of years other than your own?

So you might have been a frequent visitor, which is good, but still not going beyond the service manuals.

allyolds68

Other than the occasional article, that's all I used it for. The only way to you're going to increase/repeat site traffic is to have a forum like this where people can interact. I seem to remember they had/have one there but it was never the emphasis.

jaunty75

Right on all counts. There was a "forum" section at one time, I believe.

The problem with trying to create yet another site like classicolds, where people can chat and interact, is that there already a million of them, so who needs a million and one? Plus, in my experience, the best chats are at sites that cater to a specific brand like this one does, or perhaps even a specific model line within a brand like a Cutlass site or a Chevelle site. A general "car" site would attract only mild interest because, I think, most people come to sites like classicolds to get help fixing up their car, finding parts, etc., and what audience is going to know that information better than people who own the same make or model?

MDchanic

Actually, I downloaded ALL of the service manuals and factory literature and information within a few days to weeks after I found out about the site, and have them indexed on my computer, so after that initial contact, I only went back occasionally when I was away from my own computer and wanted to know something, so, yes, I am one of those people (I've also done the same thing on other sites when I've come across the information, such as one site that had 1940s-'50s Cadillac parts manuals - I vacuumed up the whole thing, as I might need it one day, and there's no guarantee that it will still be there when I do... and I don't even own a Cadillac).

But, ALL of the AHPS's work is important, not just the manual section, which is why I've contributed.

- Eric

dhamster

I'm in!

nsnarsk65cutlass

I really don't care about this issue at all, at least now you won't see all the plugs about go visit that site for free anymore,maybe now i'll stop getting the monthly email spam.Just sayin'

anthonyP

I tried everything, but I still cannot get onto the AHPS webpage - all I get is an error page with an HTTP 403 error code.

jaunty75

Worked ok for me just now. Perhaps you have an error in the address you're typing in. Try this link:

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com

The wildaboutcars address is still used for the time being, but it takes you to the AHPS page.

anthonyP

Thanks for the suggestion, but it is still not working. I was able to access both websites for the longest time, but then recently I keep getting the error page and HTTP 403 code. From what I read about the error code, it is the website that is rejecting my IP address for some reason.

MDchanic

Weird. I tried it with and without the "online" and it came up instantly.

- Eric