63super88

Just picked up this olds a few months back, been driving it fine, and all of a sudden the generator light wants to stay on. its got a new regulator/alternator and starts fine, runs no different from what i can tell but im not trying to drive it far to see. What could this be, i checked the horn relay and such n tried to clean it up a bit. what else could this be, possibly bad connections on the starter?

MDchanic

Have you checked the voltage?

- Eric

63super88

no not yet im jus trying simple things possibly clean off the starter connections because it made a horrible sound right before the light came on but runs fine now jus stays on. i just got a volt/dwell/tach meter the other day tho so ill probably hook it up today, not sure wat its even supposed to read tho 12v? and if it is low what would that be? (its got a new v-reg, alternator, and battery)

MDchanic

There is nothing simpler than opening the hood and putting the red probe on the (+) terminal and the black probe on the (-) terminal.

Check the voltage before you start the car, while cranking, then after a few minutes, check at idle with no accessories on and with all accessories on, and at 2,000 RPM with no accessories on and with all accessories on.

- Eric

rocketraider

63 is a little different animal. It was the second year for Delcotron alternators and there's a generator warning light relay in the circuit along with the normal expected components.

You need a 1963 chassis manual to troubleshoot the warning lamp. Wild About Cars probably has it online. Look in Section 14 Electrical FSC (Full Size Car), pages 14-6 & 14-7. It goes thru checking the warning light relay, the field relay and Delcotron output.

MDchanic

Good information!

Here's the '63 Service Manual.

- Eric

63super88

well the car is my daily driver so to wait for a manual to come in would throw a monkey wrench in my weekly schedule, but would probably be a good idea regardless. im going to go out and do a volt test, but i was just out there and had taken off the - terminal while running and it died, however if this signifies the alternator it is marked less than a year old would it still be that?

MDchanic

Unless you've got a really slow internet connection, the wait wouldn't hold you up that long -- like maybe a few seconds.
You didn't follow the link, did you?

Don't do that. It can hurt stuff (though more on the newer cars than on the older ones).

There could be a lot of different causes, but, since most parts you buy today are Chinese crap, sure, it could be bad after a year.

- Eric

63super88

sorry i wrote my response in a horry without thinking, i thought paper manual lol..but i did follow up, and i think its just the relay because the light didnt come on at all before and wont go off now and the manual says both problems would be cause by a bad relay, and its def got 50 yrs of corrosion on it, but the alt is brand new and i doubt its bad thogh the terminal test was questionable. thank you for the link because i was gonna drop 50 for an actual old era paper manual, but hey i like old literature so it wudnt hav been waste lol. i hope the new relay works when i find one haha

MDchanic

It's always good to have the paper manual - I can't do without one - but you can't beat having one on your computer as well (especially at the price ).

I'm not familiar at all with the '63 relay, but if you follow the manual's instructions and find that it's bad, it's likely that you could substitute a modern relay in its place to get it working, or substitute other components from '64-on cars (regulator?) to eliminate it entirely.

Stellar, a member of this forum, would be a good source of information on this.

- Eric

stellar

charge diagram with relay

MDchanic

Very interesting, Stellar.

It looks like they essentially combined the functions of the warning light relay and the regulator after '63.

If necessary, it looks like you could easily substitute a newer regulator (like one of the half-dozen or more that most of us have lying around...) for the regulator / relay combo, using the (+), Field, Light, and R wires, and capping off the green wire to the ACC circuit and the extra Red (+) wire.

Any problems with that that you know of?





Thanks,

- Eric

63super88

welp i checked all the wires in the diagram and they check out, and i checked the volts as the manual said and the manual said that if the charge is over 5 volts the charge is fine and its the relay, it read 13 both off and at idle, so i believe my charging stystem is ok unless that is lower than usual? the light refused to work at all before this issue, now it stays on while running but the charge is ok so is this definately the relay now as i think the manual is saying? and if so i think i found it, its the one next to the horn relay on the wheel well rite? where could i find one like it?

rocketraider

Here's the OE Delco-Remy part # for the warning light relay-

Grp 2.515 p/n 1115823, relay, Delcotron warning light. 1962-63 all w/ Delcotron 52 amp

You should be able to cross reference it to another mfg's part # and I'm sure most of the aftermarket supplied it. Look for NAPA Echlin/Balkamp, Sorenson, Standard, Filko, any of those should work fine. Keep in mind they also supplied Western Auto/Wizard, Pep Boys, Atlas and the other contemporary chains.

63super88

thanks my man, i think i found one im gonna try to make the napa distributor before they close..the relay is the one next to the horn relay on the wheel well right?

stellar

should be no problem changing to a later style configuration using all 4 reg connections. Do you have a light when you turn the key on to run position engine not running? If not check fuses.

MDchanic

Thanks, Stellar, I wasn't asking for me, just for general information to file away in my head, and for anyone following the thread or finding it later.

And, to the OP, the relay apparently looks like this:



- Eric

stellar

Using a later style reg, common on most 64 & up models leave the F and #3 reg connections as they were. remove the lite wire from the lite relay and connect it to the reg #4 position. Remove alternator R wire from lite relay and connect it to reg #2 position. Eric, I think this is what you said but using colors instead. Do not confuse the following as info for repair for this post. There was an earlier setup for late 1962 and early 1963. You will seldom see this one. Notice 3 coil 5 terminal reg.

MDchanic

Yup. I was trying to keep it simple, since the colors are obvious, but the little numbers and letters can be hard to read.

Interesting.

You can clearly see that in the next ('63) version, they just pulled the light relay out and put in in a separate box.

This could also be connected to use with a newer regulator, for those who needed to get back on the road quickly.

Thanks,

- Eric

stellar

Eric, look at the diagram again. Notice the dotted lines and the solid ones. Dotted are for when there is an indicator lite. Solid is for when there is no lite. When there is no lite there will only be one wire to the alt plug- the field. So if someone with an early olds car says they have only one wire in the alt plug this is probably what they have, or originally had. Do not confuse this with some pontiacs that also have 1 wire to the alt. These were used for a few years and had a single coil reg different form the rest. If his lite relay is bad and he can't find one, the way you showed to connect is the best way to go. I still think he has a blown fuse.

MDchanic

All very interesting.

Gotcha. Had no idea one division used different parts for a while, or that some cars had no light.

63super88

yep, thanks for the tips guys all very helpful i got a later model one that looks just like the one in the pic for the original, although the one on it didnt match either was actually completely different but i feel i put the right one on and the light went out. but now it does what it did before it came on, not come on at all even when the key is in the run position and not running. someone had said this woud be the fuses, so i guess ill check the fuse panel. which one in particular?

MDchanic

The fuse for gauges and back-up lamps seems to be the one, but I would check voltages at all locations where you would expect voltage (follow the wiring diagram), to see whether you've got a bad connection.

- Eric

rocketraider

Fuse block cavity is labeled INSTR BU and takes a SAE 9 amp fuse. Are the other warning lamps and the fuel gauge working? If they are it's not the fuse.

stellar

I don't have a manual, but 5 volts is low unless the manual is refering to the voltage coming to the relay from the alt R terminal while the alt is running. Not running this voltage should be 0, running it should be about 7 volts. This is what energizes the coil in the lite relay to close the circuit and put the lite out. If you don't have a lite with key on engine off, you either have a bad relay or a wiring problem to the relay. Since you said the lite does lite that leaves the switch or the wiring to the relay and that may be the fuse or a broken wire (open circuit).

63super88

u kno wat might throw the manuals directions off a bit is that its not the original alternator, its a newer alternator that has a different set up, and mayb this is why the light doesnt operate as usual because the wiring to the terminals is diferent, but it definately doesnt come on at all now and this is what it did before it stayed on. the one thats on it has one screw post and one plastic clip with wires going to the relay and everything else when i think the original had 2 side by side terminals. when i did the volt test i jus hooked the volt meter to the one post and then to a ground. i really didnt kno how else to go about checking it due to the other terminal being a plastic clip that slips in, unless i take the battery terminal off and stick a codder pin in there or something like the manual said to do to the delcotron, but differently shaped alternator im pretty sure. the relay was also differently shaped, as the delco remy original had 4 posts on it whereas the littelfuse aftermarket that was under my hood didnt have a number or anything and the #4 post was above 1 and 3 in a slanted position couldnt even find another like it but the one i got mimics the delco remy original but for far less money, although my wires didnt need the number 2 post, it the one that went bad didnt even have a number 2 it was grounded to the relay itself in a weird way could post a pic later on maybe. (ebay ppl wanted 165 n up for unopened original stock, but echlin aftermarket part# ECH ar102 works). all of my other instruments/accessories work fine tho (except clock but i removed the fuse for that) so it could just be wire to the relay. its odd, but possibly the light will work if i lose charge just not come on as usual all the time, or not come on at all now im not sure, but thats how my volt test came out, and i guess the manual is just really saying if u got a normal charge at the alt it cant be that part its just not reaching the relay. could it just not be sending current to it same way as the old delcotron did?

rocketraider

OK- Look at the plug on that alternator that the purple and blue wires are on. It should look like I I . If it looks more like - - then you have a later style internal regulated alternator which is not set up to work with your charging system, and you should beat the parts man who sold it to you over the head with it.

stellar

Now you tell us!!! Post a pic and Either rocket raider or Eric will have you going in a heartbeat.

MDchanic

Oh brother...

stellar

Our fault. We didn't ask. We stepped in poop and now we will have to clean our shoes. Should be simple though.

63super88

i posted a whole bunch of pics of the old/new relay, and a pic of the alternator thats in the car, along with a few more of the car itself in my albums. although still unsure of why the warning light itself doesnt function as usual, it cant be the bulb, fuse, or wiring to the relay and this is how it was before the old one went bad so it is still odd but i feel i did the right thing with the relay change, swapping it to the right model atleast right?

MDchanic

Here are your photos.
It's much easier for people to see them if you post them in the thread than if you post them in a gallery.


3 post littelfuse relay


horn/warning light relay


old relay (aftermarket?) went bad, couldnt even find another 3 post relay like it, from littelfuse or elsewhere


new relay (aftermarket), echlin #ECH ar102 mimics original delco remy 4 post relay ($14)


alternator, less than 2 yrs old, swapped out original delcotron (previous owner did work)

So it looks like you've got an original-type alternator there, the type that is designed to work with a separate regulator. That clears one thing up.

I cannot comment on the relay and whether it is correct, as I have no experience with those.

I would recommend following the troubleshooting instructions in the manual for a bad warning light, as they usually give the simplest way to figure things out.

Stellar may be able to help in a bit more detail, as he has lots of experience with these.

- Eric

stellar

It looks like the wires are connected right. I sent you a PM with my phone # call me and I think we can get this figured out in short order. Mark

fbonanno

For what it's worth, I have a 1963 / 88, and replaced the original regulator with a solid state unit from Oriley's. Around $25. The original type regulators require mechanical adjustments to get them right. I didn't have the problem you are describing but did have charging issues. All was well after installing the solid state regulator. It was plug and play. Looks like you have plenty of help on this thread. Frank.

63super88

yea thats the field adjustment, but the previous owner had changed the voltage regulator so i dont think i have to do that and the relay is brand new and definately good. im pretty sure ive narrowed it down to the purple wire because i cant get my test light to light up on the end by the relay, even when i turn the key and send power to it so im still unsure if its the line itself or the terminal in the alternator or what, terrible weather rolled in havent been out there but im going to get to the bottom of this little annoyance if it zaps me dead haha

stellar

Purple wire should only have power when alternator is charging, no other time. Then it should be around 7 volts reading on a dc voltmeter. This is actually unrectified (ac) coming from 1 phase of the alt. I have never tried to test it with a test lite, and it may very well not lite a 12volt dc lite. Test the purple wire with a voltmeter when the car is running.

MDchanic

And, I believe, with a volt meter set to the AC setting, not the DC setting, right Mark?

- Eric

stellar

No use the dc setting